U.S. Forest Service

[Tom]

If there were one thing I wouldn't want to be, it would be an employee of the U. S. Forest Service.

We've had mention of Forest roads, harvesting and fire fighting problems on this forum but tonight, on the news, There is yet another law suit in the West of citizens claiming inept decision making in the recent fires.  Where will it stop?  the Southeast has sued over declining animal and plant species (spell sierra club).  Everybody is trying to get their hands into the Governments pockets through the USDA.

I hate to say it, but I don't understand.  What has happened that makes the Forest Service at fault for all the problems?

Is it really that inept or do people see deep pockets?

[woodman]

   Hay thats my pocket

[Tillaway]

Inept... maybe, they Riffed out most of thier best years ago.  One of our inspectors has a degree in resource and recreation.  This person knows nothing about the actual work we are doing in our contract.  Yet they are checking for compliance.  It is not their fault they are put into this situation and they do their best.  The fault is squarely on the policy makers shoulders in D.C.

To complicate this resource management decisions are often political and are made by people that have no business doing so.  There are so many compromises in these decisions that the resource management goals desired, can't be met.

The lawsuits are just another way of furthering your management agenda.  If you don't like whats being done (or whats proposed to be done) then you can tie it up in court so nothing is done.  Often times doing nothing is the desired out come.

[Ron Scott]

Yes, it's not the same U.S. Forest Service that use to be the "Marine Corp of the Department of Agriculture" for the various reasons previously mentioned.

The "Do nothing" and "No Management" philosophy prevailed upon them by "others" needs some serious attention of the taxpayers and the Congress.




The bears say: "Do Us a Favor...Stop Doing Us Favors"

The protester signs say: "Stop Forest Thinning"; "No Prescribed Burns"; "Danger, Flammable".

[Frank_Pender]

Ron,  one could jsut as easy replace the bears with a Spotted Owl or a Marbled Murlett (sp). and the facts of the toon would remain the same.  The signs of the Tillaway posting of Bureaucratium fits the scene very will.

[mustang]

I worked for the forest service for 25 years in timber and fire in Louisana, South Carolina, North Carolina, and Tennessee.  I finally had to leave because i could not take what the outfit had turned into.  The "Olg Guard" are just about all gone.  Replaced with folks that have no ties to the land ie. farming, logging, mining or ranching. The "Greens" have taken over most line positions( rangers and forest supervisors).  It is truly a sad day for a once proud organization.

[Tom]

welcome Mustang.

[CHARLIE]

Welcome to the Forum Mustang. I sure hope you stick around. It sounds like you have a lot of experience and probably some good stories to share. 8) 8)

[mustang]

Thanks for the welcome.  Found the forum from a link on wood web that Bibbyman or nobel put up. I just bought my first mill a hud-son 36.  I got alot to learn.  I know now why one of our timer purchasers said everyone that marks timer sould run a sawmill for a while.

[Tom]

I've seen some of the Hudson mills run at the Moultrie Ga. Ag show.  Most of the ones they would bring were small.  You'll have to tell us about yours.

[Jeff]

I know now why one of our timer purchasers said everyone that marks timer sould run a sawmill for a while.

A-Men

Welcome Mustang

[Bro. Noble]

Welcome Mustang,

I like to try to stear people that look like good forum members this way.  I know that Bibbyman and others do the same.  I enjoy both forums but consider this one home.  It has personality thanks to the participants and especially thanks to the hard work and dedication of Jeff.

and thats
No Bull

[whitepe]

Amen to the good job by Jeff on his website brother Noble.

 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)

[Ron Scott]

NATIONWIDE NEWS

Road-building in national forests limited for one year.
No new roads or logging will be allowed in 49 million acres of national forest land for the next year unless approved by the secretary of agriculture, the Obama administration announced Thursday.

Policy Update

[blame]

oooo another one thanks to our wonderful new president  : : : :

[TheWoodsman]

oooo another one thanks to our wonderful new president  : : : :

>:(

[Rocky_Ranger]

The Forest Service is a political animal just as any Department in the Government, the "use book" written by Gifford Pinchot was 34 pages long - with pictures, and a small book at that.  My book now that lists the major laws governing management is about 300 pages long and in very small type - just the titles of the laws.  The Forest Service didn't pass a single one - they all came from Congress and signed by the President, ultimately they started out as all taxpayers ideas.  You bet it is confusing, you bet it makes ya shake your head and wonder some times, but it still is a good Agency - with a tough job.  Times are a'changin, there is not as much environmentalism within the ranks as there was in the 1980's and early 90's, work is getting done.  That work is different than the old days when logging ran the show.  Those that can change with the times - the times are pretty good.  We are still bogged down in our administrative work; Albuquerque Service Center has not been a bargain, and has caused lots of stress on our folks.  But, times are a'changin - work is getting done; logs are heading down the road, plantations are being established, recreation and Wilderness activities are happening, cows are grazing, Rx burns being done, etc.  Just gotta roll with the flow and keep on pushing to do what's right with the land.. 

The roadless thing is a bunch of hogwash anyway, the new ruling just means the Secretary will make the calls.  That had been delegated down under the Bush Administration so it has just been "undelegated".  I think I seen where only 45 +/- had even been proposed (roads) in the past eight years.  We still can propose a road in Inventoried Roadless, just got to get Mr. Vilsack to do the bidding now......

[Ron Scott]

Good Update. ;) I just sent in my reservations for the Forest Service Reunion in Missoula, Montana September 6-11. Looking forward to it.

[zopi]

There is a reason your government is inept...at all levels...over that last few years, the reliable,
intelligent, wise, thoughtful professional government worker has been run out in favor of the
easily controlled politically reliable...especially in the officer ranks of the military...there are a few good ones left, but  there are alot of frighteningly stupid people in very critical positions..

Alberto Gonzales anyone?

That might aggravate some folks...but it is my considered opinion..

[Rocky_Ranger]

I'd like to go to Missoula and see that, probably won't make it though.  Looking at a move coming up but nothing in the works as yet - wishful thinking, I reckon.  I've still got 10 years or so with the outfit before I can retire, could have been eligible now if I'd stayed in at the on-set.  No redos, and no regrets either.  18 years in private industry and running my own company was not only fun but a heck of a learning experience.  Gives me quite an edge in what I do now.

[Ron Scott]

Fire Destroys Forest Service Headquarters

Blue Mountain Eagle (Grant County, Oregon, July 13) - The district headquarters of the US Forest Service in Enterprise was recently destroyed by fire on July 11 and, a few days later, the site was declared a crime scene. Investigators from the state fire marshal's office have initiated a probe that was expected to include agents from the FBI and US Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives, as well as Oregon State Police arson investigators. According to the Forest Service, no one was in the building built of logs when the fire broke out. The structure, however, was "a total loss."

http://www.bluemountaineagle.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&subsectionID=12&articleID=24462

[ouachita]

After working for 22 years as a consulting forester in Texas, I went to work for the USFS on the Ouachita National Forest as a senior forestry technician.  When fully staffed, I managed ten timber markers.  I was, and still am, appalled at the lack of knowledge of a supposably knowledgeable crew.  Four new hands came on board a week before me, two of which had several years of experience.  I left after eight months. 

A major problem as Rocky pointed out is the Albuquerque Service Center, which is the human resource department for the Forest Service.  All personnal that are hired by the different federal agencies have to go through the same paperwork shuffle of getting hired. The ASC has never got it's act together.  After you were hired, any contact you made with ASC was an act in frustration.  We went to work at 6 am CST.  They opened up at 7 am CST.  An hour lost if you were making a morning call.  Since we traveled in a crew truck, several man hours were lost.  It would have been nice if we would have had someone in the office to field questions and act as a liasion to the ASC.  Many times I told my techs if they didn't get an answer immediately, they were to wait several minutes, then call the ASC again.  Another more knowlegable ASC staffer would answer their question. 

I am convinced that that the Ouachita National Forest is being over harvested.  Can I prove it?  No. Just a gut feeling after working in the woods for 30 years.  Asking around, no one could give me any figures telling me anything different.

There are some great people working in the USFS.  Then there are others who are afraid to try something different or fear stepping on someone else's toes.

Charles Westmoreland CF, RF
Arkansas Registered Forester
Consulting Forester

Hot Springs Village, Arkansas

[ErikC]

 I just spent about a week working for them as a mule packer in the Trinity alps wilderness, and have done a lot of similar work in the past. They are an inept organization. But there are many good people who still work there, and a few of the new ones are too. It can be hard to separate the two, but it seems for the most part like the administrators see things different than the ones who do the work. Unfortunately the ones who know what needs done aren't in charge.

[Ron Scott]

Man Wins Battle To Limit Hunting, Snowmobiling In National Forests

BY DAVID ASHENFELTER
FREE PRESS STAFF WRITER

Kurt Meister isn't your average pro se litigant. Unlike most pro ses -- those who represent themselves in court and usually lose -- Meister has a law degree from Harvard University and time on his hands.

That made it easier for Meister, a 52-year-old stay-at-home dad and full-time stock market investor, to take on the U.S. Forest Service after gunfire from hunters repeatedly caused his daughters to dive for cover during family outings in the Manistee National Forest.

Last Wednesday, Meister's three-year legal battle finally paid off when a three-judge panel of the U.S. 6th Circuit Court of Appeals ordered the Forest Service to consider declaring a small portion of the Huron-Manistee National Forests off limits to gun hunters and motorized vehicles, including snowmobiles.

"I've won a battle, but not the war," Meister said last week. "My biggest worry is that the Forest Service will subvert the decision and find a way to rationalize what they already decided."The Justice Department and Forest Service said they still are reviewing the decision.

The judges -- Raymond Kethledge, Deborah Cook and Gilbert Merritt -- said the service, in developing its 15-year plan, used arbitrary estimates in determining how many snowmobilers and cross-country skiers use the forests.
It also failed to coordinate recreational planning with the State of Michigan to reduce duplication of gun hunting and snowmobiling between state and national forests.

The judges gave the forest service 90 days to revise the plan it adopted in 2006, and to decide whether to close primitive and semi-primitive nonmotorized portions of the forests -- 6.75% of the combined 970,000 acres of the forests -- to gun hunters and snowmobilers.

"It's a recognition that not every activity can happen on every acre of the forests," said Marvin Roberson, a Sierra Club forest ecologist who lives in Marquette. Meister, an avid hiker and cross-country skier who grew up in Eastpointe, spent his summers in the Manistee National Forest, where his parents had a cottage.

After graduating with an economics degree from Wayne State University in 1979 and a law degree from Harvard University in 1982, he practiced law for 10 years for Clark-Hill, a prominent Detroit law firm. Along the way, he married, had two daughters and decided to stay home to raise them.

Meister said he sued the service in 2007 after it repeatedly ignored his requests to consider closing off a portion of the forests to gun hunters and motorized vehicles in developing its 15-year plan for the parks. He lost at the U.S. District Court in Detroit and appealed.

He figures he has devoted $150,000 to the project, mostly in the form of time.
And he doesn't dislike hunters or snowmobilers. "I don't have anything against people doing their own thing," he said. "I just want to make sure everyone can do their own thing."

Contact DAVID ASHENFELTER: dashenfelter@freepress.com

[Tom]

I guess that everybody can do their thing if they recognize that there are others.   Meister isn't recognizing that there are others.  Hunters aren't armed in the woods for nine months out of the year.  If recognized as an entity why shouldn't they be allowed their time too.   I'm not saying that hunters should go around shooting people, I'm just saying that Meister's expectations are greedy.  Perhaps Hikers should acknowledge that they are sharing the Forest duing those times.

It's like the old joke of staying out of the jungle between midnight and one A. M. because that's when the elephants jump out of the banana trees.

Hikers should stay out of the Forest during hunting season because there are guns out there then.   It's already mandated that you don't take guns into the Forest outside of Hunting Season.  So, who is right and who has rights.

The designation of special-use areas has already been acknowledged by the USDA but some want it all.

If Meister feels  he has expended $150,000 to get what he wants, how much would you think that the USDA spends of our money to defend itself in court from the many who take them there to gain "wants"?