setting lead in Belsaw M14

tmroper · March 09, 2010, 02:26:21 PM

Alright guys I need some help. I have a Belsaw m14 it runs and saws great. I know how to set lead and the blade has been hammered so that is not the question. I am running the mill with a pto and it is set on wood beams.

I am curious to you guys solutions to help keep the lead in. It seems like I set it and then the action of the pto hammers it out after a couple of boards so that it start wanting to cut out of the log toward the end. I know these are lighter built circular mills and was just wondering if anyone had fabbed up something to remedy this?

Thanks

beenthere · March 09, 2010, 04:06:56 PM

If I understand right, possibly is the sharpening of tooth (teeth) fighting the set in the lead.
Not sure how the "PTO hammers it out" conclusion fits in?

bandmiller2 · March 09, 2010, 04:43:08 PM

TM,you said the mill is set up on wood timbers,most lilely the flange bearings that support the arbor are moving on the wood.You set it right, but in use the wood won't hold the bearings tight enough.Probibly the best fix is 1/4" steel plates on the wood under the bearing flanges.It would help to adjust the flange bearings if you welded a square nut on the plates for adjustment bolts that can be locked with a jamb nut.Frank C.

tmroper · March 09, 2010, 04:44:19 PM

Hi beenthere
I am certain it is not the sharpening of the teeth I just had them sharpened by the saw doc and hammered. I cut one log perfect and then the lead needed adjusting (checked the teeth and they still looked perfect) so this got me to thinking. When growing up my older neighbors who had a circular mill always said check the lead and check it often but I never saw them have to check it as often as mine seems to go out. As far as the pto hammering it. When I say hammering I am reffering to a very fast rotation of the shaft along with the point where the ujoint reaches its most severe angle. Obviously the tractor is backed up as straight as possible but there is no way to avoid a sligh angle causing a side stress. Even on a belt drive you are going to have a slight pull toward the side where the power is coming from. I feel this is not as much of an issue on the heavier sawmills such as the frick but on the belsaw with wood beams the shaft seems to loose it's position easier. I was thinking of machining a steel plate to mount on the inside of the beam on the back side of the mill so that the bolts could be tightened down better. I was just curious if this has been a problem for anyone else and how the fixed it. Also the belt which is used to return the carriage to the log deck always seems to want to jump off.

Thanks

tmroper · March 09, 2010, 04:52:07 PM

Bandmiller,
You are a fast poster I was typing when you posted. ;D Thank you that is exactly what I was thinking it appeared to me that the flange bearings where not being held into place very well and they need a more secure setting. But with calving season here and a million and one things to do I was not really wanting to just shoot from the hip when maybe someone had run into this. The belsaw is a good mill just built a little lighter than I would like.

Thank you for your thoughts

Ron Wenrich · March 09, 2010, 06:19:41 PM

Sometimes the saw guides can cause some problems. If you have it set a little to heavy to the log side, it will cut out. I keep my board side guide pretty close to the saw. Just a little bit of light.

What are species are you sawing? I get different saw reactions on different species. Sometimes even within the same species.

tmroper · March 09, 2010, 07:14:14 PM

I am sawing ponderosa pine right now. So you are having similar problems? I have got the guide set their is just a tiny bit of light but when the lead goes out it is noticible right away because the blade will really turn into the guides and the only way to remedy it is to stop and re adjust on my mill. I really think the plate bandmiller mentioned may be the ticket. Like I said earlier I really like my band mill but it is definitley lighter built than some of the other mills out there. I think that with a little fab work to beef up week spots it will cure a lot of the little nuiscances. I wish I had a neighbor with a heavier circular mill to take ideas from.

tmroper · March 15, 2010, 11:49:32 PM

I just wanted to say thank you for all the help on solving this problem. I fabbed up some steel plates and mounted them up to the beam and had great results. I sawed up a couple thousand bf of lumber this weekend without a hitch.
Thanks again

woodmills1 · March 16, 2010, 12:00:25 AM

If you don't get the northern logger magazine, try to check out this months issue. Casey cramer writes a column there on circle saw blades, and this month it is about lead on circle mills

theweber · March 19, 2010, 08:53:05 PM

Where can i get a copy in way down here in the south ? thanks theweber

Ron Wenrich · March 20, 2010, 06:55:44 AM

That is a very good article. Casey points out that lead isn't all its cracked up to be. Its there so you are cutting on the downswing, and not the upswing. In otherwords, you don't want the back end of your saw doing any cutting.

Casey also points out that lead isn't something to mess with or to use to steer a saw. He likes to say you set it and forget it. If your saw is not cutting straight, its due to poor saw maintenance.

I can agree with him to a certain point. I don't mess with lead too much. I do know that saws won't cut quite right if there is too much or too little lead. But, I won't look at lead as being the point to start troubleshooting.

I run a vertical edger. So, if my saw isn't standing straight or cutting straight, I will know rather quickly. That means my saw is dull, or my sawguides are out of adjustment, or it could just be the type of wood that I'm sawing. If that doesn't cure it, then I'll put on a newly hammered saw. Next spot to look is the collars.

One big problem is the assumption of rpm speed. I used to have my saws hammered for 640 rpm. And, I always had some sort of problem. Eventually I got a dial tach and put on there. My speed was 690, not 640. Problems can arise if you're running too slow or too fast than its hammered.

I've watched guys try to saw logs with way too little power. They put the log in the wood, then saw so fast that the saw dies down. It usually lays over and heats a little, or just cuts off line. Problems accumulate. You need to maintain the same rpm throughout your cut. If you're not doing that, its not the lead, its the sawyer.

As for Casey, he's a member here, but hasn't shown up yet. Maybe a nudge would be in order to get him to post. But, here is the article on lead from Casey's website:

http://www.senecasaw.com/docs/0310forum.pdf

bandmiller2 · March 20, 2010, 07:41:45 AM

One of the handiest things I have is a Stewart Warner hand held tach its like a speedometer with a rubber nub you put on the end of a shaft,reads RPM directly.Its the speed in the cut that matters have the offbearer hold it on the arbor shaft as you cut an average log.Frank C.

tmroper · March 21, 2010, 01:57:35 PM

I enjoyed reading that article thanks for the posting. I also sure have enjoyed all the discussion regarding to this topic thank you to all those have posted. I don't think horse power or torque was any problem for me since I was running the mill w/ a 135 hp tractor but I like the idea of having a friend run a tach when you are sawing to see how things are running. I was sure wanting to nail up some siding today that I sawed after fixing the saw but the darn wind is so bad I guess I am just going to tinker in the shop instead. Thanks again

Do any of you guys hand file your blades?

Ron Wenrich · March 21, 2010, 02:46:37 PM

I hand file most of the time, but I will use a Jockey grinder every couple of sharpenings to keep my angle honest. But, I always hand file after the grinder. It seems to be so much sharper.

bandmiller2 · March 21, 2010, 08:24:29 PM

TM,my old mill I always hand filed didn't have any problems.A file is one of the harder metalworking tools to master their so simple most give little thought to their use.Now I use the Dexter file guide that all but assures a straight tooth I use a diamond grit file for touch up and a regular file if I need to remove more steel.Always wanted a jockey but too cheap to cough up the quid.Frank C.

Ron Wenrich · March 22, 2010, 05:54:00 AM

Those Dexters work great. I wouldn't invest in a Jockey unless you wanted something that took a little less time.

tmroper · March 22, 2010, 11:33:33 PM

It's always great to see what other guys are doing also. I am a hand filer myself. I am going to have to pick up one of those diamond grit files and one of the dexter file guides. I usually just try to get positioned good and comfortable so that I can stay straight and use a mirror to make sure the tooth is square but I seem to go through a lot of mirrors by putting them in my back pocket and forgeting about them.

tmroper · March 23, 2010, 12:02:59 AM

Does anyone have a picture of the dexter file guide? I would really like to see one.
Also where did you guys get yours?
thanks all

Ron Wenrich · March 23, 2010, 05:44:50 AM

I don't know if they're in business or not. I dug this address out from an old thread dating from 2004.

Sawmill Tool & Service Co., RR #1, Box 300B, Pudding Hill Rd, Lyndonville, VT 05851 802-626-9027 FAX 802-626-3479

Maybe you should check with your saw doc. Bandmiller might have some insight where he got his.

bandmiller2 · March 23, 2010, 06:06:19 AM

TM,the phone number Ron listed is good,I visited Bruce Dexter about 5 months ago and had a couple of saws pounded and he was doing fine.If you google dexter file guide you can bring up the patents, one of them has a small picture.I've found the best way to adjust the guide is to have a new bit in the saw and adjust the tool to just clean the whole face.Frank C.