Anyone want to talk about Belsaw Mills

[moodnacreek]

I am about to order the cheapest motor spool valve from Surplus Center to operate my carriage.  This valve has load checks and I was wondering what that means.  Since this valve meets requirements for flow from my pump, I assume it will work for me.  Am I missing something here?  Also, is an adjustable flow control necessary or does it just make operation of the motor easier when I am sawing (as opposed to gig back)?
Thinking you need a 'motor' type spool valve to reduce the shock of stopping some.

[luap]

I am about to order the cheapest motor spool valve from Surplus Center to operate my carriage.  This valve has load checks and I was wondering what that means.  Since this valve meets requirements for flow from my pump, I assume it will work for me.  Am I missing something here?  Also, is an adjustable flow control necessary or does it just make operation of the motor easier when I am sawing (as opposed to gig back)?

Load checks are for preventing a load drifting down as in a front end loader cylinder application. The leakage of oil past the spool in the few seconds that you are returning the valve to neutral could allow the load to drift down. The load check is between the valve  and pump and will have no effect in your application. (It will be on the inlet of valve)  If you start to move the lever on valve and  can control the speed of the carriage, you may find no additional flow control is needed. If it moves to fast and hard to adjust speed then you will have to explore options of flow control.

[jimparamedic]

Got to play at the mill yesterday. sawed a little oak and white pine.  Also took some photos of the feed work on the Belsaw It is a very different set up but it works great I can slow it down for hard wood and speed it up for soft wood and then this is hyd. feed on the American mill made from a Jacobs garden tractor

[jimparamedic]

The Hyd feed on my American

[moodnacreek]

This was talked about before but if you rigged a hyd. motor to the feed drum and the gig back speed was nice, fast like it should be, a 'return too tank flow valve' would go in the feed line to the motor. This will need an extra line back to the tank. If a needle valve flow control [ cheaper] is used it may heat the oil too much. I wonder if it is a bad idea to chain the hyd. motor to the cable drum without a jack shaft in between as I have seen it done [more chains and sprockets] because hyd. motors can and do break if there is too much shock when starting and reversing .

[jimparamedic]

I did add a jack shaft to slow it down and the controls you are talking about are all self contained in the trans axle. the knob on the left controls the power to the motor. The vise grip is because I lost the jesus. I had more pictures but they did not load

[luap]

Here is an example of the needle valve flow control from Surplus Center. Adjustable flow in one direction and full flow in the opposite direction. Also comes in 3/8. I will have to get some more detailed pictures of my hydraulic feed on my American to add  to this discussion.  
1/2 NPT 15 GPM Prince WFC-800 In-Line Flow Control
item number: 9-7960-8



 

[Iwawoodwork]

I have never been inside a td9 but was inside my old 1943 cat D4 and as I recall the shaft from transmission back to the cross shaft looked like it could be extended.   Was thinking that rather than remove everything behind the engine, remove the top cover and lift out all steering gear and final drive cross shaft and come through the back case and tie into the transmission output shaft, that way you would have the trans gears.

[jimparamedic]

My HD9 has a short drive shaft between the engine clutch and the trans. I have a shaft with a 8" flat and a 3 grove v belt pulley with 2 pillow blocks and a yoke for a drive shaft

[Trapper John]

I had a machinist make two 32" circles of 2 X 1/4"  and I welded them on an arbor pulley to  widen the pulley to 11".   

 
<
 I was happy with the way it turned out, it has some runout but way less than the truck wheel I had been using.  I am running a 40" saw freshly hammered by Puget Sound Saw near Seattle.  But I am still having problems.  When in the cut the belt starts slipping and I have had the saw come to a stop with the belt happily riding around the pulley.  I never saw that with the tire pulley.  I do not understand why my saw should have such a difficult time in the cut.  The problem is drop in rpm at the saw and I cant figure out if the belt slippage is the cause or the result of the rpm drop.  When I manage to keep the rpm up I can saw acceptable lumber but it is such a challenge.  I have a good amount of lead at 1/8" and I sharpen for each 14' spruce log I am sawing.  The engine is governing perfectly for hammered speed of the saw (650).  Some of the teeth are longer than the others so maybe I should space them more evenly around the saw.  I may try more lead in the saw and I will order some 5/16" teeth.  Circle milling is getting more like voodoo for me.  br>

[moodnacreek]

Your belt slippage I can not understand. One of the old timers that taught me ran a no.1 American, 52" saw, 400 cu. in. reo gold comet with a 6" belt. He did convert to Vee belt but did get by for years with the flat belt. The only thing I can think of is the condition of your belt surface.

[Old Greenhorn]

The belt has been slickened and will get worse. Find a source for 'belt dressing' and put some on. It should come in a 2" stick. Don't get that new crap spray they sell. Get the stick stuff and run some on as the belt passes. It has rosin in it and life will get better quick.

[Trapper John]

I dripped on honey and things improved greatly but it doesn't seem to last very long.  Maybe it becomes "carmalised" or something.  I know an old timer in Tok, Ak. who also sawed successfully with a 6" belt.  It seems impossible to me.  Well, I will look for some of the stick belt dressing and try it.  When I was running the tire pulley the slippage was at the engine, now its at the arbor.  Makes me wonder about my plan to install an idler at the engine if my problem now is at the arbor.  Oh well, guess it cant hurt.  I am also thinking of ordering a 10" belt,  flat belts are not that expensive.  Power band belts are a different matter, very expensive.  My mill is just a hobby/project mill but I do want it to be functional.  

[moodnacreek]

Trapper, there is no way you need a 10" flat belt. The mandrel is not big enough to even tighten it. Something simple is wrong here. It is a shame you can't turn your power around and go vee belt and have it over with. Keep us posted.

[luap]

Looks like a good job on the pulley mod. I think  you need all the teeth the same length. The longer ones are carrying the load and your feed will have to be slowed accordingly. My flat belt was 6 inch wide turning a 48 inch saw with 44 teeth. I used a liquid belt dressing that could be squirted on.  I see now  it has gotten old and thickened up like honey. I still use it on my lathe that has a flat belt but I dribble it on with a stick. It does the job though.

[jimparamedic]

I use boiled linseed oil, Tar, Bees wax all cooked together works good and if I saw all day I put it on the bely 3 or 4 times. My grandfather used to use an old tire set it on fire and let the melted rubber drip on the belt still had to do it several times a day. dust makes it slip and morning dew even under cover. once or twice a week I would clean the belt with a little gas and a wire brush. Ive also seen old beltind riveted to the pulley to to help stop slippage.

[btulloh]

I've seen a lot of tractors where the pulleys get dressed instead of the belt. Don't know what they used- maybe the burning inner tube or rosin.

[moodnacreek]

In the quarries they lag the pulleys . They weld on slotted strips [of steel] in which strips of rubber slide in. On the belted offbear over my husk I have glued and pop riveted conveyer belting or it will slip bad. Used gorilla glue. The trick is to strap it tight all around and make a nice joint. I wonder how the spray on bed liner would work?

[Trapper John]

 

 There is a lot of belt deterioration occurring and I think it is caused by the sticky honey.  Anyone else seen this?  I was thinking of painting the pulleys with wing walk paint,   the gritty paint people use on boats etc.  I don't mind applying belt dressing occasionally but not if it will destroy a perfectly good belt.  I was having my cants wider at the far end and the guide pin streak is on the board side of the saw so I gave it more lead today.  Did not measure after the change but I estimate its 5/32".  If I keep the outside guide pin tight against the saw with no gap,  use the honey, and sharpen twice for each log I can make acceptable lumber and cants.  How much lead are other Belsaw sawyers using?  Moodnacreek, v belts will not work for distances greater than a few feet or I would use them.  

[glendaler]

Could you find an inner tube that would fit tightly over if you cut it open so the whole surface is rubberized? Similar to what moodnacreek is saying about wrapping an old belt around the pulley.

[Trapper John]

I doubt an inner tube would last very long.  I read about an outfit in Oregon that applies a special coating to any type of pulley to increase friction to reduce heat buildup on large farm equipment like combines.  I asked what it would cost to do a 12 X 10 " pulley and they said $1000.  Can buy a lot of belt dressing for that.  I was sawing today and I heard metal on metal as my carriage was passing the saw.  I found two of the wheel pins were nicking the saw.  You got to watch the play in the pins,  just can't assume anything.  There is also a lot of play in Belsaw wheels, cant be good.  

[bandmiller2]

Theirs an old millwrights trick of crowning the pulleys with friction tape, it aids friction and alignment. I'm not sure if you can still buy friction tape I haven't seen it  in quite a wile. Flat belts tight enough to prevent slippage will tend to spring and stress the Belsaw arbor, they are best driven with a shaft like a tractor PTO to relieve side strain. Frank C.

[luap]

Theirs an old millwrights trick of crowning the pulleys with friction tape, it aids friction and alignment. I'm not sure if you can still buy friction tape I haven't seen it  in quite a wile. Flat belts tight enough to prevent slippage will tend to spring and stress the Belsaw arbor, they are best driven with a shaft like a tractor PTO to relieve side strain. Frank C.

3m scotch brand makes a tape used for high voltage connections  that is self vulcanizing. When stretched as it is wrapped on The layers all become one  solid piece conforming to whatever it is wrapped around. Can get it in 2" width.

[luap]

 There is a lot of belt deterioration occurring and I think it is caused by the sticky honey.  Anyone else seen this?  I was thinking of painting the pulleys with wing walk paint,   the gritty paint people use on boats etc.  I don't mind applying belt dressing occasionally but not if it will destroy a perfectly good belt.  I was having my cants wider at the far end and the guide pin streak is on the board side of the saw so I gave it more lead today.  Did not measure after the change but I estimate its 5/32".  If I keep the outside guide pin tight against the saw with no gap,  use the honey, and sharpen twice for each log I can make acceptable lumber and cants.  How much lead are other Belsaw sawyers using?  Moodnacreek, v belts will not work for distances greater than a few feet or I would use them.  

I can't but help to think you have some alignment issues. My American has 1/16" lead. Has daylight between guides and saw. My logs only touch the ground when the tree drops so they are very clean.  I only saw a few thousand feet a year And sharpening is few and far between mostly to square the cutting edge up as the log side corner wears away.

[Trapper John]

I can see going to a heavier arbor might really help me.  The fact that I have both the drive belt and the feed belt both pulling on the same side of the arbor probably is not good.  A new arbor sounds like a simple change, buy new  flange bearings and make bigger holes in my mill.  Also plan to change over to different guide track.  The oval 6' sections I am using are hard to adjust and not uniform at the ends.  I have 20' pieces of 1 X 1/4" angle which I would stagger the seams to make a more uniform guide track.  Just have to find or make some of the appropriate wheels.  My logs are really silty as I float them down the river and they got dragged also.  I spray the cut line on each pass but there is still a lot of silt.  Guess I should be using chrome teeth at least.