Repeat offenders

[PAmizerman]

Any one else have a potential customer contact them through every single add and means of communication?

I had a guy contact me through Facebook. I gave him a price. He told me he could get it cheaper somewhere else.

A little later same deal via a phone conversation. A couple weeks later Then again via email.

A couple more weeks and a message through my website. 

I guess he keeps trying to find someone to do it cheaper 🤣

[WV Sawmiller]

   Not to that degree but I do get the same customer calling again for the same info. They want all kind of information outside the scope of sawing such as how thick to cut wood for their use - they don't know what kind of siding or flooring they will ultimately use or what size floor joists they want or spacing on their rafters, etc. They want to know who to get such use - carpenters, millwork, etc. They have drying questions using air dry or a in a greenhouse or such. 

[moodnacreek]

3 phone calls [or whatever] and it's over.

[Southside]

I have a guy that calls every few months for some specific size material that frankly is a royal pain. Same thing every time. Give him the quote, he calls or texts back two weeks later and tells me if I lower my price he will buy it. Last time he did that I raised my price by $1.00/ unit. He called instantly and booked the order. 

[711ac]

PA, does your guy know that he's not contacting different sawyers?
If there is a next time and you recognize his voice, bump up your estimate on each contact. With any luck he'll go with the middle price because the cheapest guy...well you know,  and the most expensive guy is just to proud of his stuff.😝

[bannerd]

I had a guy once stare at a cherry slab for two hours and then decided he didn't want it because the price was too high.  Four months later he came back and the price was the same and he stared at it for one hour and 40 minutes before a contractor bought it in front of him.

Customers like this are a real challenge because they make you out to be the bad guy.  The idea of staring at something doesn't make it yours, I don't understand the concept. 

[mike_belben]

He told me he could get it cheaper somewhere else.

somewhere along the line i learned how to tackle this fellow.  

"well ive been wanting to go retail for quite a while and thats below my cost so just tell me where and i'll start buying from them wholesale, unload all this equipment and insurance and building etc etc"  


another is "if its too high for you that's fine, but im raising prices on the __ (insert date) so dont come back expecting it for that price you dont like today."




when i was building engines i got hopelessly buried in a backlog but always felt "no i cant take on any more work" was a road to failure.  turning away customers or cutting them short in conversation just wasnt me, but i couldnt handle the public anymore (which was why i sold the manufacturing half to an exclusive retailer who would catch the penpals.) so i told a guy who just wanted a phone friend to bench race his far off some day build that every engine i finish that doesnt blow up, the price raises $200 every single time until the phone stops ringing.


immediate sale.  every time i used that line, someone brought a pile of oily parts no matter how high the price got until it was high enough i felt i was ripping them off. and i burned out on it.  a strange thing happens when the price gets high and customers are still lined up.  people start thinking "ya get what you pay for, and this guy is the highest and swamped with work... so he must be the best."  


well, i know i wasnt so that weighed on my conscience. i was good but didnt feel i should get what my mentors were getting.  if i got joy from ripping people off id probably be pretty wealthy but its not my bag. i like saving people money. 

[Corley5]

  I had a guy, Jerry, call last year for firewood.  He wanted hard maple.  I told him I had a mix of sugar maple and beech that ran heavy to sugar maple.  Beech was alright but he really didn't want sugar maple.  I explained to him that hard maple and sugar maple were the same and asked if he was thinking of soft/red maple?  Nope he wasn't talking about soft maple, he didn't like sugar maple and wanted hard maple the stuff with the smooth silver bark, but I did take energy drafts and he'd take it.  He called me a couple days later kind of testy and wanted me to sort out the sugar maple so he could have all beech.  Now I could have told him I now had hard maple in inventory but I didn't and wouldn't agree to sorting wood and in a huff he cancelled his order and hung up  8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)  He called me in March of this year wanting wood on an energy draft.  Three times.  Left voicemails twice.  I never returned his calls ;) ;D

[SawyerTed]

Oh yeah, I have gotten that scenario repeatedly.  Calls, asks 100 questions, then asks prices.  When he finds out price he says "so and so" can do it for less.  My response is "You better hire "so and so" and do it fast!"  I don't talk long after that. 

Same guy calls back some time later, it could be hours, days, weeks, says "so and so" is booked, not available, can't get to it quick enough.  Will you come Saturday and saw my logs?  My answer is "I'm scheduled until (several weeks out)."  I tell him that whether I am or not.  He will normally schedule a date at that point.  I do think some people who have considered buying a sawmill or have bought one call to find out how I operate.  

I stay busy with repeat customers and referrals from them.  Some of them schedule me 6 months out.  One just scheduled every other Saturday starting the end of September until the first week of November.  I do not advertise anymore, I get the best customers through word of mouth these days.  

My price isn't the cheapest nor the most expensive, but my reputation for quality lumber and sufficient production is good enough that most of my business is from the same 15-20 or so customers and referrals from them.  So when somebody says some one else is cheaper, I don't really care.  

[barbender]

When I worked on a paving crew, our estimator had what we called the "jerk/weirdo" price for people that your feelers told you were going to be a problem. 

[Bruno of NH]

You question me once on my price now.
You get blocked on FB market place. 
Or told don't call back.

[WV Sawmiller]

   The proper response when you tell him its $100 he says "So and So can sell it for $50." You tell him buy from so & so. He then says "But he is out." I then reply " When I'm out of stock I sell it for $25."

[Bradm]

 I'm pretty sure I'm being treated as a "repeat offender" by a machine dealer right now, so I'm going to put my experience here and a few of my thoughts.  It's a little bit of an apples to oranges comparison (B2B vs B2C), but here's my view from the other side.

I've got a 1.5 man machine shop that I'm looking at upgrading to mostly newer technology in order to improve workflow and reduce man hours.  Early last year I had a machine builder contact me about buying one of their machines so I had them work up a quote.  Never hurts to have a quote lying around as, even if it expires, it still gives a starting point for pricing (around $95,000).  Around May of last year I said let's go ahead with it so long as some purchase and not lease financing can be nailed down since I will need to self-finance otherwise using credit cards and credit lines (crazy, but I was able to make it work).  I still don't fully understand why lenders won't even consider lending to me or working with me to make me a more qualified borrower, but that's for another chat.

After about 3 weeks they came back with a lease offer (2 year term with a 50% cash down and $1 buyout :D).  I said unacceptable, as a lease, if it were even an acceptable option, would need to be for 0 down with a 5 year term and 10% buyout.  All summer they kept up the high pressure to close, but I dragged my feet given that I wasn't crazy about self financing (refer to the previous paragraph as to why).  They came back with another set of terms around September - 1 year lease with 80% cash down and $1 buyout :-\.  That looked even worse than the first option.  So I said unacceptable and walked away as I came across a used machine for $7500 that relieved the immediate pressure.  I told them that they lost the deal due to the 2nd lease offer and the aforementioned machine.  However, they had become a dealer for another machine builder so I had them quote me one of those so I could see where I would need to build the business to in order afford the machine.

Just before Christmas 2020 I got a call from the sales manager just to see if I would be interested in buying a showroom model they had.  I told him that "yes, I am interested, but it's just not in the budget for the first half of 2021 and possibly not until 2022.  However, I've been informed that there are options available for this machine that I didn't know about.  Can you send me a complete options price list so I can build out what I want on paper and then I know where I need to get to in order to afford it."

Fast forward to May 15 and I sent an email following up on my updated quote/price list.  About 10 days later I get a call from their new sales rep so I asked him about my May 15 follow up and he knew nothing about it, so I told him what I wanted to see in the quote and the reason I wanted to see that kind of list.  I also told him that I know what I want and if what you offer fills that want at a fair price than I will just place an order (I don't nickle and diming sellers).  It's now been close to 2 weeks since that phone call and I'm still waiting. My next email to said sales manager will be CC'd to the president of the company as well as a rep from the machine builder and they will be flat out told that this is their last chance (if he pulled that stunt working for me he'd be out the door on the spot).

Anyhow, there's a view from a "repeat offender".  If your job is to sell product, than part of that involves dealing with tire kickers and people who firmly believe that you don't deserve to earn a profit off of them; anybody else is fine, just not them.  It's one of the reasons why a producer, who sells retail, needs to run a margin higher than 50%.

[mike_belben]

Tire kickers are absolutely part of sales.  You gotta have the patience for them but they do often turn out to be buyers eventually. 

[Southside]

It could be too that they are absolutely buried in work. 

[WV Sawmiller]

   On-going negotiations until you both agree on a price is perfectly fine until you both agree on terms then negotiations are over unless either party wants to come back and offer an alternative, more favorable option but stand by the original option if not accepted.

  I recently was squeezed to pinch every penny on a long, stressful job. I expect a repeat call for some additional future work but am very torn on whether to accept more work from them or, if so, how to bill for future work. I have had great responses from the last several customers since then with hefty bonuses instead of penny pinching.

[farmfromkansas]

This thread reminds me of a time when I was a young house builder.  Ran into lots of people who were willing to buy a house from me if I were to take a loss.  Even had a guy tell me once that he would pay me by the hour but would not allow me to make a profit on a job.  Most of those people I just didn't bother talking to again.  Good realtors were good contacts.  They want to make deals, not just talk about them.  I really got tired of talking to people who wanted a $90,000 house for 70,000.

[Ricker]

I have some Amish in town to compete with and they work too cheap.  so I pick the jobs I want to do.  Always somebody that wants me to work for the same money as the Amish even after I explain I don't have half a dozen kids off bearing for free.  They keep calling, eventually they will say I saw no activity at the mill this week you could have been sawing for me and at least put a few bucks in your pocket.  I say yup could of but if I'm gonna trade a old dollar for a new dollar I would just as soon do it fishing and just switch which pocket I keep my money in.

[Crossroads]

Different situation, but just as frustrating. I had a guy call me about a portable sawmill job the other day and was telling me about the project he had in mind for his "summer home" in CDA then said he noticed I had an Oregon phone number and proceeded to tell me about his vacation home in southern Oregon. Then we finally got to the pricing part of the conversation and after I explained my billing, he says "okay, so rough math, it's about $800 a day" I said yes. Then he says "well, what if I pay with cash? Would you knock  it down a bit?" I said sure, I'll knock it down to about $800. 
     I'm glad most of my customers recognize that I work hard to provide them with a quality product at a fair price.

[chet]

My response to those tire kickers, was to raise the price each time they wanted an estimate. When questioned why my price kept going up, my response was the tree had grown larger, or it's condition had grown worse. I never had the same party ask for multiple bids after their first try.  :D  In all fairness a very large portion of my repeat customers never asked prices, 'just look what should be done and send me the bill'. 

[barbender]

I don't mind tire kickers so much, I'm usually pretty willing to help people figure out what they need and how much money they'd be looking at. It doesn't even bother me if people throw me an offer of, "any discount if I buy 100?" or something along those lines- sometimes if I'm in the mood I might even give them one. But the cheapskates that think my time and effort is something they should get for free, I have no time for.

[WV Sawmiller]

   I am a very social animal and love talking to people and helping them and seeing them get excited over a piece of wood or two but I have little tolerance for the ones who just want to get everything as cheap as possible. They are not the ones who really love and appreciate wood. They do the same thing with everything they buy and everybody they deal with. I think I have thrown in something extra with every order of wood I ever sold. I am much more likely to give them a few boards for a worthwhile project or deserving individual than reduce my price. Now when they try to jew me down (Sorry for the political incorrectness) on my sawing then I get real peeved because now you are challenging my worth as an individual, not just the value of a board. They are the ones who want to bring you 10" logs and want 2X12's out of them, want you to reduce your rate, figure you should cut 2" stock half the price of 1X since it takes less cuts etc. They are also the ones who have their logs scattered over 40 acres and want you to wait while they bring them to you (Actually they can't see why you don't move them for them) and to saw in an impossible location or such. They are the "experts" that want to tell you how to make every cut.

[Old Greenhorn]

I've got a 1.5 man machine shop that I'm looking at upgrading to mostly newer technology in order to improve workflow and reduce man hours.  Early last year I had a machine builder contact me about buying one of their machines so I had them work up a quote.  Never hurts to have a quote lying around as, even if it expires, it still gives a starting point for pricing (around $95,000).....
Anyhow, there's a view from a "repeat offender".  If your job is to sell product, than part of that involves dealing with tire kickers and people who firmly believe that you don't deserve to earn a profit off of them; anybody else is fine, just not them.  It's one of the reasons why a producer, who sells retail, needs to run a margin higher than 50%.
.....

Brings back memories. Before I retired I was an M/E and part of my job was new capitol equipment purchases. When we needed something I would write up the justification, collect the required specs form all interested parties, and write a detailed RFQ sending it out to at least 4 vendors for competing quotes (corporate rules). There was one vendor I really wanted to get a machine from because I had seen how they were built and spoken with others who had them and I knew them to be quality. Bu this salesman would just send me all the boiler plate quote material on a couple of machines, about 40 pages, and never break it down with the options we required. Try as I might I had to fight and ask 3 times for a proper quote. Things he told me they couldn't supply magically appeared as an option months later. I gave him EVERY opportunity over 8 months to get his act together. I even gave him a 'last call' before we chose the winning big (machine was $275k). A week after the award he came in with a better price and would have won the order if he had done what was asked in the first place.  Next time I asked him for a quote, he refused saying they never won the and I pointed out that he would have sold us that other machine if he just did his job. This time, he did a little better and won the bid. Man, I don't miss any of that. ;D

[Resonator]

Had a guy stop in twice a while back, said he was building a shelter for his horse. Held out his hands out in a "I caught a fish this big" gesture to show how big his horse was.  smiley_horserider
Told him to call me back when he figured out how much lumber he would need for his building. Never called back. :D 

[sawguy21]

I enjoyed sales for the most part but some really ground my gears. If they expected to waste my time trying to nickel and dime the price went up. I had one catch on and demand to see my boss who had overheard the conversation, he had been in a few times and figured he was entitled. Boss gave a price about 20% higher then said See you should have bought from him" :D

[SawyerTed]

They keep calling, eventually they will say I saw no activity at the mill this week you could have been sawing for me and at least put a few bucks in your pocket.  I say yup could of but if I'm gonna trade a old dollar for a new dollar I would just as soon do it fishing and just switch which pocket I keep my money in.

A potential customer called me once and inquired about portable sawing rates.  When I told him my rates he told me my rate was too high and he started a professorial lecture on the economics of a machine not running versus running below rates. His pontificating tone was condescending to me so that didn't help his case. 

I told him I don't "buy work" by slashing my rates.  He asked how I covered overhead when the saw doesn't run.  I explained my overhead is paid in advance and not his concern.  I told him if he could get his sawing done at the rates he quoted, I could not compete. 

He called back when he fired the other guy he hired because "his" other guy cut wavy lumber.  We never worked out an agreed upon rate because I refused to lower my rate.  I reminded him that "his" other guy was "buying" his business by sawing at 25% less than my rate and you get what you pay for.  He didn't like that and our conversation ended shortly afterwards.  He's not called back and the rest of his logs are rotting in his side yard.  

I will not buy work and run the mill at a loss.

[WV Sawmiller]

  I have had several cases where a customer took his logs to somebody who promised to saw them a few cents cheaper/bf than my rate then let them sit there and rot. One neighbor moved them back to me to get them sawed. Another called me and I sawed 2 logs and we concluded they were all ruined - pine full of borers. I don't negotiate much. There's no future in it.

[Southside]

Back when I was foolish enough to answer unknown numbers on Sunday a guy called about portable sawing.

So he explains that basically we would have to pull my truck and mill into his site because of the "road" condition and how he has virgin timber.

I explain that isn't going to happen and discuss rates with him, and he tries to beat me up. 2x should be less, "fewer cuts", 3/4 should be less for some other reason, then when I won't budge he gets to spouting about how I will be "judged for my Earthly actions".  

Yea, most of you probably know that I will put up with a lot, but when it's time to Rock and Roll, I play a mean guitar. I said something to the effect that he was fortunate to have been born in a time and place where he was free to purchase his very own sawmill, edger, kiln, loader, building, tree smoother, etc. and charge any rate he believed would grant him a pass with St Peter, in the meantime I had bills to pay.

Never heard back.... ???

[barbender]

Haha yeah when they start to tell you that you are thwarting God's will by not giving them bare bones pricing, just send them away🤦🏻‍♂️

[mike_belben]

Just remind them god says that its better to give than recieve.

[WDH]

Yeah, he can go get his own tree smoother.  Last time that I went to the Box store and asked if they had any tree smoothers, I got some really funny looks :D.  

[Tacotodd]

Most will probably send you to a small hand held piece if you asked about the real deal.    :

[Cedarman]

Years ago when asked to sell cheaper I would say I had kids in college, so what do you think.
When they had graduated I told the cheaper askers that the bank said I couldn't lower prices until they were paid off.
Now when they ask, I tell that I can get their order in a month to 3 months as we are backed up to next to infinity.
Now the only ones asking if I will discount are the ones who are afraid if they didn't ask and hear no and remove doubt, that I might have said yes.
It is a great time to saw and sell cedar.

[Tacotodd]

When I'm in a similar situation I tell people "a week from never"!  ;)

[Magicman]

Reading this topic is both alarming and amusing.  I realize that the examples being given are exceptions and not the normal, but they verify why and make me thankful that I sell nothing.  I have never been questioned about my sawing rates nor has any attempt been made to bargain those rates.  When talking to a potential customer you must sell yourself and your sawing services, not your rates.

I tell the ones that sound like "tire kickers" that they will have to remind me who they are if/when they decide to use my sawing services because at the moment I am unable to make any notes.  I can generally tell which ones will call back and there are some that do and some that do not.  Some "tire kickers" will become repeat customers.

[Bradm]

When talking to a potential customer you must sell yourself and your sawing services, not your rates.

This is key.  Unfortunately, far too many potential customers (B2B mostly), and far too many vendors, approach these relationships in an adversarial manner.  The customer must get the best deal (cheapest rate) possible and the vendor must get the maximum out of the customer (never leave money on the table).

[terrifictimbersllc]

I sawed for a guy 2 weeks ago where we banged out 1900 actual BF of sawn wood from logs mostly 5-6 ft long and 30" diameter.

Really annoying sizes, a tree service tragedy,  but it worked mainly because of the help he provided.  

Anyway this was about twice the amount of wood I expected to see based on photos sent beforehand.  I had told him previously that the sawing would probably be accomplished within the minimum charge to his location, but the 1900 BF ended up being about twice as much, as I told him it would be when I arrived and saw that the pile was much bigger than I expected.  He profusely assured me it would be fine. He saw no reason to sign my agreement, had not read it in advance, did not want to hear me go through the details of it, showed me a big wad of cash he pulled from his pocket, and signed the agreement when I told him that this is how I do business.

The day went very well with him.  But when the bill came he asked for a discount.  I was surprised and just said NO, you got 1900 BF of accurately sawn wood for about 35 cents a bf from fat little logs, this is a bargain.

Then he said "how about I pay you cash and take $100 off?".  ($100 was more than the sales tax).  

I said no this is a legitimate business and I don't cheat the government.

He says "why not?".  

I don't hide my feelings well in these situations wish I could do better.   He backed off and said "it was just a question" and wrote me a check.

Now he's called back and we'll probably schedule another job week after next.

[WV Sawmiller]

   I get the cash discount question a lot too. I also reply cash or check is the same to me as I report all sales and pay sales taxes on everything I sell whether it is $10 worth of slabs for kindling or $2,000 worth of mobile sawing.