question on sharpeners

[addicted]

Hey guys
Im looking at buying a sharpener and setter for a hobby operation. EZ Boardwalk 40.
In researching sharpeners, it appears that the timberking and woodland mills sharpeners can sharpen most blade profiles by adjusting depth of the grinding wheel, the length of the feeder, and the angle of the wheel. The other manufacturers seem to require either a cam or CBN wheel for different profile blades. I handle everything from pine to hickory, green, frozen, dried and even some dirty, and still do not have a goto blade for all. 
Any thoughts on the advantages or disadvantages of having to get a specific cam/wheel for a specific type blade v.s. spending the time to re adjust the sharpener for that band?
Thanks for your help
Rusty

[alan gage]

I have the Timberking sharpener. It works ok but I can't get it to grind the full profile of my 4* Kasco bands with one pass. The TK sharpener does use a cam to follow the profile but I haven't tried grinding mine to get it to match the profile. One the first pass I let it sharpen the leading edge of the tooth and the gullet and most of the ramp up the back side of the tooth. The stone lifts about 1/4" from the tip so I adjust it so the second pass just touches up this last little bit.

A CBN wheel that matches the profile would be great but even the TK sharpener and Cooks single setter didn't really make financial sense for me and I had to draw the line somewhere.

Alan

[addicted]

Thanks Alan. Is it necessary to grind the back side of the tooth? In searching, it seems the entry level manual sharpeners hit the face only. Then the next level hits the face and the gullet. Then the top end sharpeners grind the entire setup. I've seen where cleaning the gullet gets rid of stress cracks , but what does grinding the back of the tooth do?
 

[Chuck White]

If you're thinking of going with the CBN sharpener, keep in mind that a separate grind-wheel is required for each different blade profile!

[alan gage]

Thanks Alan. Is it necessary to grind the back side of the tooth? In searching, it seems the entry level manual sharpeners hit the face only. Then the next level hits the face and the gullet. Then the top end sharpeners grind the entire setup. I've seen where cleaning the gullet gets rid of stress cracks , but what does grinding the back of the tooth do?

When I talked to Timberking they said it wasn't important. When I hear other knowledgeable members here talk they say it is. I figure that since I've got the band already mounted on the sharpener I might as well make one more trip around to hit that back edge. It seems to help square up the corners, which seems to be pretty important. When I see a cleanly ground surface from edge to edge on both the front and back face I call it good. Oftentimes if you look close you'll see a little dark spot on the corners where they're still rounded off. Those corners need to be square.

Early on when I started sharpening sometimes I'd get impatient and would call a band sharp before I should have. This saved me maybe 7 minutes from the sharpening process. I soon realized that small time savings wasn't worth it when the band quickly dulled on the mill and had to be removed early, then run through the setter and sharpener again.
Alan

[ladylake]

 Alan I think you should be able to adjust the gullet dept on your TK sharpener, sounds like you have it set for a deep gullet.  On my Wright sharpener I adjust the gullet dept by moving the height adjustment rod closer of farther   from the pivot point on the arm that pushes it up. Closer to the pivot point will make the gullet shallower.  Steve

[alan gage]

Alan I think you should be able to adjust the gullet dept on your TK sharpener, sounds like you have it set for a deep gullet.  On my Wright sharpener I adjust the gullet dept by moving the height adjustment rod closer of farther   from the pivot point on the arm that pushes it up. Closer to the pivot point will make the gullet shallower.  Steve

Thanks, Steve. I'm about due for another sharpening session so I'll see if I can get that adjusted correctly.
Alan

[maple flats]

Based on what I read, you need to grind the entire blade because micro cracks develope in the gullet and the back side of the next tooth. It said, if you don't grind that the blade breaks prematurely.

[Tom the Sawyer]

I have been able to adjust my TK Talon sharpener to grind the complete profile on most of the blade brands I have used.  Some, it has taken awhile of fiddling with the adjustments.  Personally, it has been my experience that hasn't been that much criticality between the profiles of the blades I have been using and eventually they will all end up with a similar profile (within the same hook angle).

As far as whether you need to sharpen the back of the tip, would you consider sharpening only one side of your knife blade?  As others have mentioned, you need to have sharp corners on your tips for most efficient cutting.

[Ben Cut-wright]

Addicted: Good luck on the "go to blade for all" They all have some special advantage or detraction, IMO. Plenty of blade profiles that will cut though. I think the TK sharpener should do an adequate job of sharpening while maintaining a good profile.

ladylake: Agree with you, it should be possible for the stone to do the entire surface.  May I ask why you think "he has it set for a *deep gullet" being the major factor the stone isn't touching the entire surface?  Wouldn't a shallower (gullet to stone) setting be even LESS likely to contact the back of the tooth?  Lengthening the pusher would move the stone closer to the back side of the tooth and be more likely to grind the ramp. IF he is grinding too much tooth face, or has excessively profiled his stone on the ramp side, both will prevent the stone contacting the ramp. 

Alan:  You are exactly correct, the "corners should be surfaced and made square".  Any indication of shadow or shine means the edge isn't finished. The minor amount of inspection time and extra work while the band is still at the grinder/setter will pay large dividends. 

[Brian_Rhoad]

The back of the tooth does not need to be ground. The tooth face and gullet are the important areas to grind. Cracks form in the narrowest part of the blade, the gullet. If you want to grind the back of the tooth, try a thicker grinding wheel. When shaping the wheel, leave the edge away from the tooth face square. Don't shape the wheel like you would a chainsaw grinding wheel with 2 round edges. Just 1 rounded edge facing the tooth face. The shape of the wheel edge can make a big difference in how it grinds the tooth. When you get the correct wheel profile, you don't need to shape the wheel near as much. The wheel will keep its shape as it grinds. It wears evenly because you are using the whole edge of the wheel. Once I have a wheel shaped properly, I usually just use a cleaner on the wheel.

I use Dinasaw blade sharpeners. So far I haven't had a blade I couldn't sharpen. Once you learn what the adjustments do, it doesn't take long to set up the sharpener for different blade profiles.

[KenMac]

According to Cook's you need to sharpen the back side if of the teeth to ensure that all teeth are the same height and cutting their share of the load. Cook's has a series of videos on YouTube concerning sharpening and other aspects of mill and blade maintenance. Most are applicable to brands other than just Cook's and are very informative.

[Stephen1]

Your comment of a hobby operation and want a sharpener setter. I can only say get a CBN grinding wheel, you will never every regret it!! Spend time playing golf or fishing versus fooling with a drag sharpener, trying to get it right. Some guys have the knack, I didn't. 
 That comes from experience using a drag sharpener and switching to CBN grinding wheel. I used to get 50-60 sharpenings per drag sharpener stone, cost was $40 here in Canada. CBN grindstone is $200
I switched to a CBN grinder 2.5 years ago.  I saw and sharpen way more than I ever did before and I am still using the same CBN wheel. I bet I have sharpened a 1000 blades since switching. I send damaged blades around 4-5 times to bring those blades black to life as I hit hardware all the time and I use bi-metal blades which is tougher steel. It does not seem to bother the CBN wheel.
WM has a nice manual CBN, spend the money and go enjoy your hobbies, wether it's sawing , golf, fishing. 
 

[barbender]

In my experience, grinding the gullet to get rid of "micro-cracks" is a bunch of hooey. The only reason I worry about the gullets getting ground is to maintain the original profile. When my blades break, the entire band is fatigued-  I can easily fold them over themselves and break them in half, they just kind of crumple. If you ever try to break an unfatigued  blade that way, it is nearly impossible. In short, I think they break from the trips they make around the wheels, not gullet micro cracks. Just my .02🤷🏽‍♂️

[addicted]

Stephen-1  How many CBN wheels do you use? My hesitation from going that route is the number of wheels I'll have to get/ are available. Right now I have 10,7,and 4 degree and 3/4-7/8 pitch blades. A year or so ago I sent a box of Timberwolf blades to woodmizer to sharpen and they said they couldn't because of the different profile.  If you go with CBN, are you using only that manufacturers blades?
Rusty

[Stephen1]

I have 3 different stones, Diamond stone for carbide, 7/39 Turbo and a 10. I pay $200 for a stone, so 20 sharpenings and its paid for. I use the 10 to sharpen customers blades. It's a great general blade for small horsepower hobby mills.
I use the 7/39T for myself. My mill likes them and I like them. Why use anything else. I am going to swtch to the silvertip 1.5" 7/39T though, cheaper blde when I hit hardware. I do use 7 carbides but I really hate hitting hardware with them, @ $165 a blade canadian, I only use them for customers that are willing to pay for metal strikes. 75% of my sawing is urban salvage. 
 

[ladylake]

Addicted: Good luck on the "go to blade for all" They all have some special advantage or detraction, IMO. Plenty of blade profiles that will cut though. I think the TK sharpener should do an adequate job of sharpening while maintaining a good profile.

ladylake: Agree with you, it should be possible for the stone to do the entire surface.  May I ask why you think "he has it set for a *deep gullet" being the major factor the stone isn't touching the entire surface?  Wouldn't a shallower (gullet to stone) setting be even LESS likely to contact the back of the tooth?  Lengthening the pusher would move the stone closer to the back side of the tooth and be more likely to grind the ramp. IF he is grinding too much tooth face, or has excessively profiled his stone on the ramp side, both will prevent the stone contacting the ramp.  

Alan:  You are exactly correct, the "corners should be surfaced and made square".  Any indication of shadow or shine means the edge isn't finished. The minor amount of inspection time and extra work while the band is still at the grinder/setter will pay large dividends.

 You sure can ask.. He says the stone is hitting the bottom of the gullet but not the tip of the tooth on the way up, so to hit the tip of the tooth as it's set the gullet would have to get deeper after a few passes and then it should hit the tip of the tooth on the way up.  I have my sharpener set up for a shallow gullet, on the first and second sharpening the wheel hits the face, misses the bottom and hits the tip of the tooth on the way up.  On the 3rd sharpening it will grind the whole profile.  Steve 

[addicted]

Thanks for all the advice. Learning from everyones experience has pointed us in the correct direction. 
probably should have purchased one when I bought the saw.
Rusty

[addicted]

Hey Tom
PM sent

[jimbarry]

These are the common CBN wheels we use for the different blades we sharpen. There's Hakkenson, Dakin Flathers (Ripper 37's), Woodmizer, and some custom ones I had made. What I can say is that if you are just sharpening your blades using CBN gear, just gets CBN wheels to the angle of tooth you use, whether its 4º, 7º, 9º or 10º.

For every blade manufacture, while their gullet shape is different, the angle of the tooth is the same. A 10º Ripper37 and a 10º Woodmizer are still 10º, just the gullet is a bit different. Ripper's are a bit deep at the bottom. So, if you were using a 10º Woodmizer stone and sharpening a 10º Ripper blade you will not reach the bottom of the gullet in the first couple passes, eventually with enough passes (5-6) through the sharpener, your 10º Ripper blade will have the gullet profile of the 10º Woodmizer wheel. After that, future sharpening's will only take 1-2 passes. Conversely, if you were sharpening a 10º Woodmizer blade and using a CBN wheel for a 10º Ripper37 blade, the wheel will touch the bottom of the gullet first before touching the back of the tooth. So, as in the prior example, with sufficient passes through the sharpener, the Woodmizer 10º blade with have the profile of the 10º Ripper37 CBN wheel. Afterwhich, all future sharpening's will only require 1-2 passes to resharpen.

The net affect of changing the gullet shape of either blade has no noticeable affect on blade performance or sawdust removal.

Now there are exceptions. Woodmizers 7/47 is a steep tooth. A regular 7º CBN wheel, even if its a 7º Woodmizer CBN wheel is not recommended because it will complete alter the tooth's shape. Same goes for Hakensson's 13º.