The state I live in (NY) is proposing a Timber Harvest Notification Law. I don't know the specifics yet but am very concerned. We don't have a right to practice forestry law. I'm very concerned that this will become a tool to stop harvesting in the state. I'm wondering what state's have a notification law and how it is working ? Thanks for any info.
I have it here in Ontario, every tree has to be released by the bylaw before you can cut anything . Main thing is to stop over cutting the bush
Been one in ME since 93 and maybe before. I think it's the same thing,Intent to harvest notification. Not a big deal,I filled one out a few times. No numbers,I can not to sell to the paper and sawmills.
I haven't heard anything about it
I have been out of logging for a few years but did have to file with the town/ county a cutting notice,in Wisconsin.
We have to fill out a cutting plan with the state, and a notice of intent to cut with the town conservation commission. If the cut is less than 25mbf or 50 cords then you don't need a cutting plan but still have to notify the town conservation commission.
JMOP I think all they want to know is if your paying your fair share to uncle sam just another way to control us :)
Just one more thing to do. As if we have a ton of time to fill out more paper work... They are planning more logging laws in VT also. It's gonna make life more miserable for sure. They seriously need to mind there own business.....
In Mass. you are also supposed to notify all abutters that a timber harvest will take place.
As danbuendgen said, In VT they are talking about a notification requirement. I have read that some of the states goals are to collect info from the land owner (didn't say what) and insure that the land owner understands what the benefits of having a forester might be as well as making sure he knows about Best Management Practices and the land owners maintenance responsibility after the loggers leave.
gg
I believe that law passed, not sure when it goes into effect but I can find out. It's just going to cost the land owner and logger more time and money. Foresters have to get licensed now also, and I hear they want us to get workers comp on ourselves also....but that did not go through, yet. If that happens I will definitely go out of business. It's obvious they are trying to push out the small logger, they want big company's. They want us little operations to work for the man..
They are also making it harder and harder for small farms to make it also. They just want to help out the large farms. We buy raw milk from a small local farm. The state is constantly in there giving them hell. First they could no longer sell butter. We just got milk today, and the said now they can't sell cream. It's all for safety of course, but shouldn't the consumer have the right to decide what they want to buy? I trust this small farm much more then the FDA that's for sure.....
Quote from: coxy on August 25, 2016, 05:35:11 PM
JMOP I think all they want to know is if your paying your fair share to uncle sam just another way to control us :)
Exactly. Not hard to see the handwriting on the wall for that one.
Virginia has a notification law. The Virginia Department of Forestry is tasked with enforcing the Virginia Silvicultural Water Quality Law. Along these lines, notification must be made to VDOF. VDOF will inspect harvest operations to insure compliance (no siltation into the creeks). If issues are found, VDOF will make "recommendations". If you follow their "recommendations", you won't have any issues. If you don't.....you were an idiot.
Initially (when harvest inspections began), VDOF was a technical assistance provider. We went through a short period of time where their role transitioned to a logging police force. Their job became to write "Notices of Required Action" which in effect was a ticket. County Foresters were evaluated on how many they wrote. One of our Attorney Generals ruled that VDOF did not have that policing power, and VDOF returned to a technical assistance role. By statute, they now have the ability to issue civil penalties if you don't heed their advice and continue to contribute siltation. That may be enforced after a series of hearings and opportunities to correct your actions.
Wudman
I guess I thought every state had forest practice rules that had to be complied with. We have whole acts legislated/codified for the protection of the forest environment or some could say the harassment of the land owner.
From the head of the Code on the subject.
"There are four classes of forest practices created by the act. All forest practices (including those in Classes I and II) on non-federal forest lands must be conducted in accordance with the forest practices rules. The department determines the classification of each forest practices proposal."
Forest practices are labeled Type I, II , III and IV.
They detail what and how and the application and of course the fee that is required to be made before any practice is allowed to take place. There are certain activities that are exempted form the application process and fee structure but any timber removed must still have the applicable taxed paid on that timber.
It is not really a hard thing to follow and does have some long term advantages to both the land owner and the environment.
I could walk out my door right now and clear cut my 50+ acres of woods. No permits or permission required here. They're my trees.
Quote from: Corley5 on August 26, 2016, 06:24:49 PM
I could walk out my door right now and clear cut my 50+ acres of woods. No permits or permission required here. They're my trees.
that's the way it should be if you want it clear cut clear cut it the land owner pays the taxis i don't under stand why the state has to get involved they have bigger and better things to worry about
It seems the environmental groups are pulling the strings on this one. People at the DEC are telling me it's coming. I'm looking at other states that have this regulation and the next step was a severance tax payable to the state. The highest I have seen is 10%. ouch. NY has some of the highest land taxes in the country so adding a severance tax could result in a lot of capital liquidation cuts. The devil will be in the details.
Water quality is already enforced by DEC and federal laws, go mud up a protected stream during the springtime if you don't believe me. This has nothing to do with that, the state has been trying for yrs to track the money on small woodlots, now they can say YOU cut it, and then put you and the landowner under the gestapo lights to make sure the #'s match. I recently did a job that required a material transport plant and bill of lading for any wood fiber over 1" in size. More and more it's going to be the big mills buying the big lots, your paid per mbdft and the paperwork trail is always there. 4 businesses just closed up shop in my county, the small pharmaceutical plant in Blenhiem haneed everyone their notice on a Friday and closed the doors, packed up the computers and locked the doors. Workman's comp is going up in October, something better go right with the election or its only going to get worse.
My log buyer called me today, wanted to know "how I was doing and if I was busy" which was keyword for " we are almost out of wood and I need some now". Maybe January the price will go back to semi normal, until then the stuff can stand there. :D
Not to optimistic about what kids being born today face for a future. Its obviously not likely to include traditional American dream and personal freedom. And also not likely to include running your own small business. The odds are getting stacked ever-higher against all of the above.
I hope to just hang in there another 10 or so years. It'd be easy to quit and do something else but I don't think that wire got connected when I was programmed. No can do. :)
From what I'm being told it's going to happen. :o supposedly "voluntary" right now but don't worry just give it time.
Quote from: AlexHart on August 26, 2016, 08:29:17 PM
Not to optimistic about what kids being born today face for a future. Its obviously not likely to include traditional American dream and personal freedom.
That's right. We are losing personal freedom a little bit at a time. Just wait for Hillary to get in there. Good bye freedom, Hello controlled society. Just like a frog in hot water. Turn it up slow, and the frog wont tell. Drop the frog in boiling water, and it wont like that one bit. We are the frog, the water was cold, and it gets warmer everyday.
We have more and more police that are getting more and more militarized, video cameras everywhere you go, it's obvious they want to take away our guns, our kids are on drugs from a early age, we are fed a ton of unhealthy junk food, they keep making it harder and harder to run a small business, there are endless amounts of subliminal messages on the TV, computer, billboards ect. Ever look up at the sky and see all those chem trails and wonder what they are? Trust me, your smart phone is the stepping stone to the RFID implant chip. Cashless society is around the corner. We will be paying taxes on every penny we earn. All money exchange will be done through the implant. They will know where we are at all times.
Don't believe me? Just do a quick Google or Youtube search. Does any of this sound familiar? Anyone ever read 1984 or Brave New World? It's coming. No no no, wait, it's here.....
Ive always told people here in Ohio the way we are headed we will need a license to get the license.
We have to notify here (wi) of all timber harvests. Just a way for them to keep tabs on you. The notice is good for a year. Really not that big of a deal. Just more hoops. On mfl pieces you have o follow BMPs of course. On my jobs the dnr rarely shows up to do final inspection. They know how I work. They know the ones they have to watch too. I have to carry work comp but I exclude myself. Work comp rates for hand cutters are 60/100 dollars so no employees. Everyone subs. Mechanized rates are like 12/100 dollars. When I went into biz for myself five years ago handcutting rates were 30/100 and Mechanized was 15/100 or so. So many guys have either gone mech or quit it raised the pool that much for handcutters.
Sorry but I think you guys will end up like we are here, lots of other places are looking at how logging is done here . First you need to get insurance for the county's you are going to cut in, at least 2 million dollars worth before you cut a single tree , next you need a forestry to mark your bush or if timber is big enough you can mark trees over 22 inches in diameter to the basal area that has to be left and that is high , You are watched steady so no screwing up
That's just it. The law is there to keep tabs on everything. Loggers and landowners. They want to make sure the everyone is paying taxes on the timber. And they want to keep a better eye on loggers work to make sure BMPs are used. It's the few bad apple loggers that have ruined the bushel.
I was just talking with some loggers at our local saw/logging supply shop, we got to talking about the new laws VT passed for logging.... I'm not 100% if all this is true (I hope not) but this is what those guys were saying:
We need the intent to cut permit $25 good for a year. They need to know where the job is, and how much wood is going to be cut per species and where the wood will be marketed too. I'm currently on a 250 acre job with no forester. How am I supposed to know how much I will harvest in a year?
Then we will need a stream crossing permit. $25 for each stream good for a year. But get this, a licensed forester has to come out and approve it before it gets used. Then they punch it in on a GPS, so anytime it rains, they can come out and inspect it.
And we need to provide trip tickets to the forester, landowner, and town. The land owner also has to provide the paperwork to the town, this way the town can make sure that all the number are the same for both party's. And the town can contact the mills to confirm it. I always provide the scale tickets to the land owner/forester, just to show them the volumes per load because I only pay per thousand. But I never show the check or pay stub. They have no business to know how much money I make when I bid jobs per thousand. The only thing that wont be able to prove is any firewood sales. Good thing for me, almost half my time is spent on firewood...
They wanted to put in the new law that loggers need workers comp on everyone. Owners can not be excluded, but that did not get added in the bill. GOOD THING. If that's ever happens, I'm totally out of business...No way can I afford to give half my income to an insurance company!
Overall it's going to make more paper work for us. And make a timber harvest more expensive for landowners. Having to pay a forester to check out a stream crossing? $80 per hour for the land owner to pay for. It's going to make more landowners not interested in logging with all the new rules, regulations, and money to spend.
That's cheap on the stream crossing. 300 bucks here for starters and it might take months for the dnr to show up to approve it. If there's any water crossing we usually walk or wait till winter.
Quote from: RHP Logging on August 27, 2016, 02:27:14 PM
That's cheap on the stream crossing. 300 bucks here for starters and it might take months for the dnr to show up to approve it. If there's any water crossing we usually walk or wait till winter.
Oh, I know $25 for stream crossing is cheap. So is the intent to cut permit. It's just the idea of having it. For us in VT, it's been the wild wild west. Or east rather. But you get the idea. I just don't like the idea of more rules and regulations and paperwork. I DON'T like being told what to do and not to do what and when I can or can't do it. I need to make a living, so these politicians can shove it hard.
I wish they would hurry up and do this in NY before the election so I could vote for the one that will give me the most free thing since ill be out of biz and will need lots of free things
Quote from: ehp on August 24, 2016, 08:06:11 PM
I have it here in Ontario, every tree has to be released by the bylaw before you can cut anything . Main thing is to stop over cutting the bush
EHP, one quick correction. Tree cutting bylaws are only in some counties (and their townships). We don't have one here in our county.
The federal and provincial lands (aka "Crown Land") are subject to a complex and regulated regime that is based on open market mechanisms. Forest management certifications are required that span the range from ISO to FSC and SFI.
Quote from: coxy on August 27, 2016, 03:02:09 PM
I wish they would hurry up and do this in NY before the election so I could vote for the one that will give me the most free thing since ill be out of biz and will need lots of free things
And which evil candidate will give away more free stuff??
Bylaws are becoming more and more everyday here, in some places they raised the basal so high its very hard to cut anything . As of now it cost us nothing to put in a permit to ask to cut a bush but I can see that changing here soon, the gov't is looking at how much more money they can get from us loggers and land owners
In maine its to tell where you are cutting so forestry service can inforce the laws! Biggest law that the mills enforce is jumping zones! As in selling your wood from a zone father from the mill and lying on town to get more money!! Glad they are kinda inforcing this law up here! Its not a bad thing! When I worked in WV years ago, the forest bureau gave you a book of tags for the lot you was on. One tag stayed on woodyard in coffee can, matching numbered half was stapled to load of wood to be seen from back of load. If forestry cop came up behind truck and took number and got location of lot and went back and found no matching ticket you went to jail!!! Good law I thought!
Quote from: danbuendgen on August 27, 2016, 07:40:06 AM
Quote from: AlexHart on August 26, 2016, 08:29:17 PM
Not to optimistic about what kids being born today face for a future. Its obviously not likely to include traditional American dream and personal freedom.
That's right. We are losing personal freedom a little bit at a time. Just wait for Hillary to get in there. Good bye freedom, Hello controlled society. Just like a frog in hot water. Turn it up slow, and the frog wont tell. Drop the frog in boiling water, and it wont like that one bit. We are the frog, the water was cold, and it gets warmer everyday.
We have more and more police that are getting more and more militarized, video cameras everywhere you go, it's obvious they want to take away our guns, our kids are on drugs from a early age, we are fed a ton of unhealthy junk food, they keep making it harder and harder to run a small business, there are endless amounts of subliminal messages on the TV, computer, billboards ect. Ever look up at the sky and see all those chem trails and wonder what they are? Trust me, your smart phone is the stepping stone to the RFID implant chip. Cashless society is around the corner. We will be paying taxes on every penny we earn. All money exchange will be done through the implant. They will know where we are at all times.
Don't believe me? Just do a quick Google or Youtube search. Does any of this sound familiar? Anyone ever read 1984 or Brave New World? It's coming. No no no, wait, it's here.....
Somehow I didn't see this post the first time. I own brave new world, 1984, Fahrenheit 451 among other books on the subject. At this point we still have a choice and need to teach our children to see through the crap. Don't believe the media for one. It's just a show. Challenge authority when you know they have over stepped their bounds or are bending laws. It's really about being smart enough and cynical enough to know when there's a problem. Too many people follow the herd because it's easy. As long as there are people who can think independently and will act we are ok. Teach the youth how to work and think and we should be fine. When Hillary gets elected (and believe me she will because we've had our first leader of non European decent now we need our first female and I don't care who leads the country as long as they are elected for competentance and not popularity) not much will really change. Politicians are too wrapped up in their personal agendas to really accomplish anything. Plan on more taxes and fees but as time goes on that goes without saying. More government regs too. That's just the way of it unfortunately. We as in America are similar to the Roman empire. We are riding the crest of the wave right now and maybe even on the way down but we won't know until it's all over. We as in us living today will all be dead by then. History boys. It repeats itself no matter how hard we try. Human nature.