custom sawing

[alan gage]

Looks like I get top spot at .50/bf.

Like others have said every situation is different. I live on the ex-prairie (now corn fields). There are no forests. There is no logging. People around here like the idea of having trees sawn into lumber but woodworking or building something with your own lumber is not something that's ingrained into their minds so even though there are a few sawmills around most of the trees that come down are pushed into a burn pile or cut up for firewood. I don't have to compete with the price of framing lumber because there are virtually no softwoods here (except for spruce planted in farm groves).

I bought my mill for mainly personal use but thought it would be fun to make some money from it too. I quickly realized that I couldn't expect someone to need me to saw even 1000bf of lumber at a shot. Mostly it's just one or two questionable logs. Since I can't rely on volume I decided I needed to price my services at something that made it worthwhile for me.

I saw very little for other people but I don't think it's because of a higher than "normal" price. It's just that very few people here have both the trees and inclination to have them sawn into lumber. The people I have sawn for haven't complained about the price and no one has expressed surprise when I quoted them my rate. I can always lower my rate if it sounds like a good job (and have when a customer showed up with good logs and good helpers that really sped things up).

This isn't something I need to do to make money but I do like being able to offer this service locally and charging .50/bf keeps me motivated to keep doing it. At .25/bf it wouldn't be worth my time for the low volume jobs and I'd only use it for personal use.

Alan

[Tom the Sawyer]

Alan,

You're not lonely at the 'top', my rate for 4/4 has been at .50 for 4 years.  Thicker lumber is slightly less (more bf per pass) and I post my rates on my website.  There are a couple of stationary mills that are 30-50 miles away; don't know what they charge but I have never been concerned about what others charge.  

I know what it costs me to run my mill, operate my business (taxes, advertising, support equipment, insurance, etc.) and what my time is worth; that is what determines my milling fees.  I don't negotiate my fees to get a job, I do offer a 10% discount to repeat clients and members of the local woodworking guild (of which I am a sponsor).  I have had a couple of callers tell me what they would pay, I don't know if they ever found anyone.   

Although I was the only active mobile sawmill in my area for several years, there are now three options if you want milling services at your location; a chainsaw mill, a swing-blade mill (w/slabber), and yours truly with a bandsaw mill.  We interact well, each with unique services.  Between Google and my website, I get a lot of calls, sometimes for jobs I can't reasonably handle, I forward those callers to one of them.  More logs get sawn (remember that old saying about a rising tide lifts all ships).  

[ladylake]

 In my area if I charged 50 cent a foot I'd be 100% unemployed.   Steve

[Tom the Sawyer]

Mills, blades, vehicles, fuel, and insurance are not significantly more expensive in Kansas... somethings gotta give.

[Larry]

Just my thoughts.

I can saw a whole lot for very little money.

I can saw a little for a lot of money.

I can charge like the phone company. Trip charge, mileage charge, setup fee, universal service fee, hourly charge, board foot charge, fuel adjustment charge, small log surcharge, board foot adjustment fee, and dirty log fee.

I prefer the second method.  Could make more money with method one or three but lots more work and complications.

There are also two types of folks running sawmills. The first is the board maker. This is the guy that continually cranks out 400 board foot an hour. Heavy slabs, quick to the cant, and saw to the bed. This guy is very efficient at what he does and most customers think he is a great sawyer. He is the one putting the cash away.

The second guy is the one that takes the time to position each log for the highest grade. If the log needs to be turned to a new face to maintain grade he does it. This guy is concerned about production but will not sacrifice quality or as the commercial hardwood sawmills call it grade recovery.

Again, I prefer the second method.

[Magicman]

There actually may be three methods.  Slam, bam, thank you mam, on one end and total grade sawing on the other end. 

That leaves sawing for and meeting the customer's needs and expectations in the middle.  If you consistently get return sawing visit calls from these customers, then you have established a successful custom sawing operation and yes, there is some jingle in your pocket.

[DPatton]

Great topic with no one size fits all answer. The final answer has to fit your individual business needs and your production capabilities. I love to saw but I'm in business to make money. I have insurance costs, advertising costs, website costs, operating costs, etc.... I charge $2.00 per mile (one way) for delivery of the mill to the site. Then sawing is typically billed out at an $80.00 per hour rate. Damaged blades are an additional $25.00. I have a 3 hour minimum for going mobile, and I don't relocate the saw for free.

I saw both as a mobile operation or in a bring em to me capacity. If you have good quality round straight logs I am more than happy to quote a bf. price. However I saw in a region where sawmills are uncommon and most have never utilized their trees for anything other than firewood or simply pushed into brush piles to be burned. For that reason most don't understand bf. pricing. Nearly everyone wants my hourly rate and that's just fine with me. 

  I typically always saw as a one man operation. Depending upon the client to have their logs properly bucked, staged, and provide both the off bearing and stacking. I almost always perform a free, formal pre-saw site visit to inspect the clients logs, staging area, and answer question. This gives me an opportunity to meet the client and accurately explain what the client can expect along with what the client needs to provide in order to get the biggest bang for his buck. Simply put my time should be spent at the controls of the saw. Any time I spend outside of that is just me performing very expensive labor.

   Some clients get it. They do everything right and have plenty of working hands to perform the off bearing and even placing logs onto the loading arms. They get grade sawn hardwood for around .30/bf. Some clients just don't get it and their material costs go up.

  I have encountered numerous customers who want nothing but live edged slabs. Only a few customers are interested in grade sawn lumber. It's usually the ones who want grade sawn lumber who understand the bang for your buck speech. 

[moodnacreek]

You can only saw by the M in nice clean straight logs, none undersize, none oversize. In the normal junk it is by the hour.

[Bandmill Bandit]

Great topic with no one size fits all answer. The final answer has to fit your individual business needs and your production capabilities. I love to saw but I'm in business to make money. I have insurance costs, advertising costs, website costs, operating costs, etc.... I charge $2.00 per mile (one way) for delivery of the mill to the site. Then sawing is typically billed out at an $80.00 per hour rate. Damaged blades are an additional $25.00. I have a 3 hour minimum for going mobile, and I don't relocate the saw for free.

I saw both as a mobile operation or in a bring em to me capacity. If you have good quality round straight logs I am more than happy to quote a bf. price. However I saw in a region where sawmills are uncommon and most have never utilized their trees for anything other than firewood or simply pushed into brush piles to be burned. For that reason most don't understand bf. pricing. Nearly everyone wants my hourly rate and that's just fine with me.

 I typically always saw as a one man operation. Depending upon the client to have their logs properly bucked, staged, and provide both the off bearing and stacking. I almost always perform a free, formal pre-saw site visit to inspect the clients logs, staging area, and answer question. This gives me an opportunity to meet the client and accurately explain what the client can expect along with what the client needs to provide in order to get the biggest bang for his buck. Simply put my time should be spent at the controls of the saw. Any time I spend outside of that is just me performing very expensive labor.

  Some clients get it. They do everything right and have plenty of working hands to perform the off bearing and even placing logs onto the loading arms. They get grade sawn hardwood for around .30/bf. Some clients just don't get it and their material costs go up.

 I have encountered numerous customers who want nothing but live edged slabs. Only a few customers are interested in grade sawn lumber. It's usually the ones who want grade sawn lumber who understand the bang for your buck speech.

What he said X10. 
It has got to be a dang good site, logs, and help to get me to even consider BF price AND that value has to exceed my average hourly rate by 10% minimum before I will go there. 

[WV Sawmiller]

   One thing to keep in mind if you are sawing by the hour the customer is going to ask, and rightly so, how much lumber you saw per hour. I'd suggest you have a high and low range and explain the difference is based on the kind and size of the logs and lumber he has and wants, how well prepared he is, how much help he has and how good they are and what kind and how much support equipment he has available. Even sawing by the bf the customer is most likely going to ask you how many bf you saw per day and that is a legitimate question because he has to schedule his and his help's time and possibly rent or borrow equipment for the job.

[DYank]

Hi all   I charge $350.00 hr. $1000.00 setup and $150 a blade. With these prices I get all the work I want. Now you all know how much work I want :D :D :D.

[Bandmill Bandit]

I Get asked the "how much can you saw in an hour" every time a potential customer calls! My answer is "my best ever is of 1000 BF an hour and my worst ever is about 50 BF an hour and about 60% of those figures are directly dependent on you in how you set thing up and how good you are at keeping the roll way loaded and removing cut lumber and waste. 

Sometimes I get the comment of "you mean I have to help?" 
At that point I work hard to talk him out of hiring me! 

I do a site/log inspection visit BEFORE I move the mill and I require a one day milling price as a deposit BEFORE I will move the mill. NO exceptions!

If the logs are not decked and yard ready I dont unhook the mill. My job is operating my sawmill to make lumber. 

I will do the other work on occasion BUT it is billed at $100 per hour(for my mill sitting idle) plus and hourly rate for the extra work, AND the client MUST have the proper tools/equipment for me to use to do it. If I bring in tools and equipment to do it the hourly rate will reflect that.


   

[DPatton]

  One thing to keep in mind if you are sawing by the hour the customer is going to ask, and rightly so, how much lumber you saw per hour. I'd suggest you have a high and low range and explain the difference is based on the kind and size of the logs and lumber he has and wants, how well prepared he is, how much help he has and how good they are and what kind and how much support equipment he has available. Even sawing by the bf the customer is most likely going to ask you how many bf you saw per day and that is a legitimate question because he has to schedule his and his help's time and possibly rent or borrow equipment for the job.

The customer always asks, and I always provide a ballpark quantity for them. That ballpark is usually presented as quantity of average size logs per 8 hour day. In my area the customers seem to understand logs per day better than BF quantity. 
 I'm sure that you guys on the forum from areas where sawmills are much more competitive probably don't understand how this can work, but here it does, and it's the information that the customers understand so I use it.

[WV Sawmiller]

   Sounds reasonable - what do you consider an average log/day rate?

[Stephen1]

  Sounds reasonable - what do you consider an average log/day rate?

I get asked that quite a bit.
15-20 logs 16-20" is a nice days work.
Lots of my work involves, staging- I have the tools to move logs, stickering, I almost always make sure the wood is stacked and stickered. I can saw stickers for them. I try to get thm to buy HT 1x2 strapping from the lumber yard, but does not always happen.
I rarely go to the site ahead of time. I ask for pictures and numbers of logs, lots of time it is just 1 tree, 4-5 logs. At least 1 of those the butt log or crotch is for slabbing. That is a 4-5 hrs.
Then I go to  back and get the wood to go in my kiln.
Everyone smiles 8) They can build thier table or island within a month.

My custon order this week is a 48" EWP log, I will cut it down to 13' , have my neighbour with the Peterson slabber, cut it in half. I will then kiln dry both halves,  and then the 2 halves are going in his man cave/ hunting lodge to mount his tropies on. We will see if mother nature allows us to get the equipment in to get the log out. It will be a great winter project. 

[dougtrr2]

Speaking strictly as a customer I favor the hourly rate with mileage/setup fee and metal strike fee. I felt I received an excellent value for my money. 

I understand the concept of a board foot, but would have hated to go through a days sawing and figure out how many board feet were sawn.  I could envision getting into quite a debate over how many board feet each board contained.  With the hourly rate scale I know what I am getting. 

For myself, being a cheapskate, I did everything in my power to keep my sawyer at the controls flipping levers. The logs were arranged in a row with all the butt ends facing the same way, bark was removed, and I had helpers.  He also made a visit prior to setup where we discussed set up location and how to have the logs arranged.  After my experience I don't see how a customer could come out on the short end paying hourly unless the sawyer was completely lazy and incompetent.

Doug in SW IA

[WV Sawmiller]

Doug,

  Pretty refreshing response. I don't see how there could be much debate on how many bf a board contains as that is a simple mathematical calculation. Most of my customers understand the bf rate better and prefer it but obviously you seem to have done a better job of prepping the site and keeping the logs and lumber moving and probably save money by doing so. My business card contains an International 1/4" Log scale on the back so if we meet before sawing they can use it to estimate their yield before we start or I will e-mail them one if they like. If local or if convenient for me passing by I will make a presite visit and in any case I will take as much time as necessary to explain how to prep the site. I usually suggest they have a small or low grade log sawed first into stickers if needed. I can generally generate more stickers as needed when edging.

  I try to get the customer to stack the lumber by like sizes to make the tally process easier, faster and more accurate. I have a spreadsheet with formulas to do the math for me on my laptop I take with me and at the end of the job I hand my tape to the customer and he measures and I record. If mixed sizes are involved I discuss with the customer and we agree on an average length, width and thickness. I have never had a customer who suggested the tally was inaccurate or skewed against them. I did have one customer call me a couple days after we finished the job and advise he had double counted one stack we had sawed the day before. I sent his refund before I got around to cashing his check. The customer sees and I provide a copy of the tally sheet upon request - lack of a portable printer means I have to print from my home but I can download a copy to a flash drive on the spot if he wants.

  Some sawyers tally each log before sawing based on a log scale. Then it does not matter if he saws it into 4/4 , 8/4 or any mixture. If the log beats the scale the customer benefits, if it does not meet the sawyer is not penalized (Such as defect or poor quality logs which take as much or more time to saw as pristine logs.) Some tally each board as it comes off the cant - I'm not that fast or accurate and this slows me down so I tally mine off the finished lumber at the end of the day/job or before it leaves the job site. I do a daily tally if a multi-day job. At the end of each such tally I advise the customer of the amount of lumber and cost to date. If a customer has a tight budget and wants to set a cap on the amount we saw/he spends I will do intermediate tallies so we don't exceed his available funding.

  My sawing is more of a self funded hobby than a career so I may be a little more lax in the money making aspects than others who depend on it for their living.

  The primary thing I stress is clarity throughout the process. The customer must understand before the blade ever hits the log how he is getting billed so there is never any "sticker shock". The customer must understand his responsibilities and not be surprised when he gets billed because the sawyer has to do extra work, hits a nail, or is delayed due to site prep issues. I firmly content all the billing techniques are fair as long as both parties understand and agree before the job starts and are properly adhered to throughout the process. Sawing and billing should be entirely fair to both parties.

EDIT/Add-on: BTW - billing by the hour should be clear from the start too. Some sawyers start the billing clock the minute they get in the truck to drive to the site until they arrive home or finish the job. Some start the clock the minute they arrive on the job and bill for on-site time only. Some bill by the hour meter on the mill. Hourly questions you need to address include break time (I assume this is off the clock), changing bands, break downs or PM work on the mill (Normally off the clock IMHO), waiting on the customer to move logs or lumber (Normally billable if significant), log prep such as sawing limb stubs or bibbying the log to fit on your mill (Probably billable in most cases) but if you mis-gauged the height and have to interrupt sawing to go trim a log after it is loaded to pass through who pays, etc. 

   I have but almost never use a set up fee but would if I had to keep stopping and moving the mill to multiple locations. In many cases moving the mill for me is faster than waiting on the customer to move the logs slab pile, sawdust pile, etc, so, since it is my choice, I usually don't bill for it but if the customer just did poor job prep I would bill for it. 

[SawyerTed]

Doug, you "get it" and are the kind of customer I appreciate.  Prep and on site labor make it easy to exceed my average board feet per hour.  My hourly rate is based on my board foot rate X average board feet per hour.  It is very much to the customer's benefit to help me exceed the average board feet per hour.  I'm okay with that because I prefer to be sawing rather than handling material.  

If the blade is spinning in wood, I'm earning my rate.  If I'm off bearing or moving logs, I'm very expensive labor.  

Some customers don't get it at all.

[trapper]

I let the customer keep track of  the boards on a clipboard.  I am slow so to be fair to  the customer I charge by the board foot. At the end of the day I have them make a copy of the clipboard.  Then I  calculate  it out using the FF calculator I have loaded on my laptop.  I am a very small hobby sawyer alongside most of you but that is what works for me

[WV Sawmiller]

   I just made up an excel spreadsheet with the formula:
(Board thickness in inches X width in inches X length in Ft) / 12) X quantity.
This does the math for me automatically and all I do is plug in the sizes and quantity at the end of the job or any time we want to check the totals and costs.

  If we have stacks and some rows are 38" and others or 41" etc I just record the thickness then treat the entire width as one one board (Example 38 or 41) X the width and it does the math with qty = 1.

 I have the form set up to tally the total bf in the column and put that in another field that multiplies times my sawing rate. I have other fields that add mobilization and blade damage and special hourly rate and another that multiplies this figure by .06 (WV Sales tax is 6%) and another that adds the total price plus the tax

   If I have 12 rows ranging from 38-42 inches and we concur the average is about 40 inches I will often just record 12 boards 40" wide X thickness and get the same figure as recording 12 different boards. The customers seem satisfied with that method. 

   I cut an order here over Thanksgiving where we sawed the butt log at one rate as they were here to help then left the rest for me so I sawed at a slightly higher rate then just added the two. That was simpler than modifying the form.

   Anyway, this is what works for me. Others may use other systems and I guess really big time sawyers may want to try our new sponsor's software.

[Peter Drouin]

I use to set it this way for the BF thing.


 




 

This way I can put the lengths and W, together, counting is easy now