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Author Topic: Electronic gurus...I need help  (Read 1170 times)

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Offline Percy

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Electronic gurus...I need help
« on: July 27, 2021, 09:45:54 AM »
 

 

I purchased the pictured unit about 3 months ago. Its 19 years old with only 900 hours on it. Had 780 when I bougfht itr..Amazing machine but has had a few cobweb issues I been dealing with. The latest is the joystick. its a two axis unit. The up boom function likes to quit often. I removed the joystick, dissassembled it and cleaned it. It worked great for about a half hour. Then same problem. I take it off and blow compressed air into it after spraying with starting fluid or electrcal contact cleaner. Works good for a bit and then starts to get intermittant again and finally ceases to function. I can reconfigure the joystick via dipp switches and get myself out of a jam but its a PITA...I have a new joystick ordered but it seems bobcat may not stock this part anymore....Suggestions???
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Offline mike_belben

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Re: Electronic gurus...I need help
« Reply #1 on: July 27, 2021, 10:11:17 AM »
Whats inside the joystick, do you have any pics?  Does it use contactor type open/close switches or are they a variable speed type of switch like a rheostat or throttle position sensor?  


Are the switches integrated to the stick or could they be extracted and replaced?  


I have not fooled with this stuff much at all and am pretty clueless about electric servo controlled hydraulics.  @kiko probably knows a ton.  My brain is limiting this to metal contacts or metal wipers.  If its got positional feedback and encoders and stuff its out of my league.. Im not smart enough to keep up. 
Isaiah 48:10

Offline Gere Flewelling

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Re: Electronic gurus...I need help
« Reply #2 on: July 27, 2021, 10:47:53 AM »
I am not completely familiar with this specific machine, but it sound like it must have a main control valve for boom functions that is controlled by electric coil/solenoid valves that your joy stick operates.  Usually there is a computer that is between your joy stick controls and the valve.  This is how the snow cats I service and repair at my work function.  It sounds like there may be a resistance issue building in some of those coils/solenoids that work when cold but start to fail as resistance builds.  The computer or control board (that's the term they use on the snowcats) may have small led lights that indicate which function is being activated.  It would seem to me that it might be common on your machine.  On the snowcats the specific function will light up on the control board when activated by joystick functions and if the circuit is intact back to the control valve the light will stay lit.  If there is an issue with connection or high resistance in the individual coil/solenoid it will cause the light on the control board to blink.  The control board likely only controls output (going to the valve) and does not control input (between joystick and control board) and will not indicate if a joystick switch is bad.
If you can determine which coil and valve control your lift function you may find a corroded connection or a coil that is failing.  Disconnect the coil and check it with an ohm meter.  Then test another coil or two that look similar and compare readings on your meter.  Sometimes this helps.  On our snowcats we can sometimes trade coils with another valve that is similar to see if the problem moves with the coil.  I am not sure if this information will provide you with a solution, but this has been my experience.  I wish you luck!
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Offline Bert

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Re: Electronic gurus...I need help
« Reply #3 on: July 27, 2021, 10:52:19 AM »
I had a similar problem with a bobcat skid steer. Wound up changing the wiring harness and problem solved.
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Offline farmfromkansas

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Re: Electronic gurus...I need help
« Reply #4 on: July 27, 2021, 10:59:09 AM »
My JD 7130  tractor has a joystick to work the loader, think they all use the same joystick, wonder if you could use a JD joystick to make it work?  They are electric over hydraulic.  
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Offline mike_belben

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Re: Electronic gurus...I need help
« Reply #5 on: July 27, 2021, 02:08:05 PM »
Gere's snowcat example sounds like the computer is a PLC.. Programmable logic controller. 


Does ABB or allen bradley ring a bell gere?  Those are common PLCs. 
Isaiah 48:10

Offline mike_belben

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Re: Electronic gurus...I need help
« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2021, 02:12:36 PM »
This guy was having same issues it looks like, unless thats you also.   He says its a pulse width modulation solenoid setup. 

Bobcat V518 Versahandler Hydraulic PWM spool issues | Heavy Equipment Forums
Isaiah 48:10

Offline mike_belben

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Re: Electronic gurus...I need help
« Reply #7 on: July 27, 2021, 02:18:23 PM »
If it is truly a PWM control then the valve solenoid is just a coil and it gets toggled at a variable rate by the pwm controller,  between open and closed position in order to vary the hydraulic flow rate to the implement.  



Step one is determining where your issue is.  Anything you can test will produce a go or no go and then we can progress up or down stream as needed.   If you can locate the valve block solenoids and determine what DC voltage they take, the  that voltage may be able to be produced at the solenoids to see what happens.  If the functions work right the problem is upstream.  If not its the valve or something downstream.  

Generic pad mount hydraulic solenoids often have a manual override sortcof push button that mechanically toggles the spool for emergency and troubleshooting purposes.  Often in the middle of a shaft that the coil is mounted on.  Generic coils are usually pucks with 1 or 2 wires,held onto a shaft by a nut and washer. Unless bobcat made up some sealed proprietary unobtanium block in order to roll out scheduled obsolescence. Very normal sinister move. 

If so,  I am sure we can get around this if they left room to mount a generic hydraulic block and youre willing to get sideways with it. 
Isaiah 48:10

Offline Gere Flewelling

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Re: Electronic gurus...I need help
« Reply #8 on: July 27, 2021, 02:20:09 PM »
The PLC used in the Pisten Bully snowcats are German made and have a Kassbohrer tag on them.  Kassbohrer is the parent company of the Pisten Bully snowcats.  I don't know if they manufacturer their own or have them produced.  I have not heard of the ABB brand.  
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Offline Percy

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Re: Electronic gurus...I need help
« Reply #9 on: July 27, 2021, 09:30:49 PM »
If it is truly a PWM control then the valve solenoid is just a coil and it gets toggled at a variable rate by the pwm controller,  between open and closed position in order to vary the hydraulic flow rate to the implement.  



Step one is determining where your issue is.  Anything you can test will produce a go or no go and then we can progress up or down stream as needed.   If you can locate the valve block solenoids and determine what DC voltage they take, the  that voltage may be able to be produced at the solenoids to see what happens.  If the functions work right the problem is upstream.  If not its the valve or something downstream.  

Generic pad mount hydraulic solenoids often have a manual override sortcof push button that mechanically toggles the spool for emergency and troubleshooting purposes.  Often in the middle of a shaft that the coil is mounted on.  Generic coils are usually pucks with 1 or 2 wires,held onto a shaft by a nut and washer. Unless bobcat made up some sealed proprietary unobtanium block in order to roll out scheduled obsolescence. Very normal sinister move.

If so,  I am sure we can get around this if they left room to mount a generic hydraulic block and youre willing to get sideways with it.
Using your logic , Mike I have determined the issue is upstream from the valve body with the four solonoids. When I switch wires around, the defective function is always the same movement (stick back).  Ive noticed that every time I spray contact cleaner into the components of the joystick and blow it dry with compressed air, it is taking longer with each treatment to screw up. In a few days the thing may be normal again. Than for the diagnostic thinking 
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Offline mike_belben

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Re: Electronic gurus...I need help
« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2021, 10:29:58 PM »
So different parts of the machine will move when wires are switched around, but the 6oclock position on the stick consistently jacks up?


Stroke the joystick a ton of times in every direction while its full of cleaner.  I speculate its corrosion on a copper rheostat wiper. 
Isaiah 48:10

Offline Southside

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Re: Electronic gurus...I need help
« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2021, 10:54:42 PM »
Pretty sure it's the NIMBY actuator that is giving you fits.  As in it's Not In My Back Yard - bring it here and I will get it straight for you in a month or two...  :D
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Offline mike_belben

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Re: Electronic gurus...I need help
« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2021, 11:14:31 PM »
 :D
Isaiah 48:10

Offline donbj

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Re: Electronic gurus...I need help
« Reply #13 on: July 27, 2021, 11:33:55 PM »
Gee whiz, what ever happened to the old move the lever this way it goes that way. Move it the other way it goes this way. Volvo came out with electric over hyd contols on their L150 loaders when I was at the mill as a scaler. Took some getting used to but was finger control vs hand and arm. Very nice once you got it.
 
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Offline tacks Y

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Re: Electronic gurus...I need help
« Reply #14 on: July 28, 2021, 08:17:15 AM »
I had a problem with my Genie man lift controller. I ended up buying an after market one, have you looked else where?

Offline kiko

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Re: Electronic gurus...I need help
« Reply #15 on: July 29, 2021, 04:45:04 PM »
I don't want to talk out of school because I have no experience with the bobcat tele. Most electronic joysticks I have dealt with use potentiameters then the module would produce the PWM signal to the control solonoids .  If for some reason the travel of the joystick potentiameter goes out if range it may kick out that function.  

Offline farmfromkansas

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Re: Electronic gurus...I need help
« Reply #16 on: July 29, 2021, 08:15:12 PM »
Just wondering if you park this machine in a shed, or leave it set outside?
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Offline Percy

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Re: Electronic gurus...I need help
« Reply #17 on: August 17, 2021, 09:18:41 AM »
Update on the joystick issues. 

I was able to locate(thanks to Williams Machinery in Prince George BC), a company in Germany that stocks repair parts for my joystick. I ordered the brush and slider kit  they sell. Fast shipping. The machine was down so I was less afraid to try something radical....After about the 200th disassembly, I took some 1500 grit sandpaper and sanded all the contact strips. Mike had speculated it could be corrosion. I did not see any but these pieces will be replaced soon so I experimented. After sanding the strips  lightly, the machine is functioning like new...Im a happy guy.....

I do keep the machine under a roof when parked but the previous owner had left it in the elements for years....
There is barely 900 hours on it but the seat is disintigrating from being in the sun hitting it. The cab is tight and waterproof but many large windows makes for UV damage....
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Offline mike_belben

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Re: Electronic gurus...I need help
« Reply #18 on: August 17, 2021, 09:41:51 AM »
 8)   glad youre back in business percy. what a great feeling. 


withholding 50 cents of dielectric grease sells an unfathomable amount of replacement stuff.
Isaiah 48:10

Offline mmprestine

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Re: Electronic gurus...I need help
« Reply #19 on: August 17, 2021, 10:12:53 AM »
Get a can of DeoxIT.  Best contact cleaner you can buy.


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