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First (big to me) mill job

Started by Kombucha20, May 09, 2022, 07:46:28 PM

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Kombucha20

Hi, I've got my first real mill job coming up, customer wants 600 LF of 2x6x16 and 600LF of 2x10x12 
I will be moving my mill to his property and he has the trees (I actually took them down with an excavator last year for him) 
Just curious if any one has a ball park figure of how long this could take? If I did my math right I think it's 1608 BF, and here's is the unanswerable question. How much do I charge. The mill I have has a 13 hp engine, I will have his pay loader to use to load the logs and from memory I think they are fairly big pine. I will take any advise. thank you 

WV Sawmiller

   I don't know how far you are transporting the mill or how hard yours is to set up. I don't know how fast you can saw with your mill or if it is manual or hydraulic. Do you have help or are you sawing and off-bearing too? Where are you located? That makes a difference in your costs and what you need to charge to make a profit. Any likelihood of hitting metal and if so is he paying for blade damage/replacement?

  With my mill I'd call that a short one day job but I have a 25 hp engine and hydraulics. I usually figure around 2,000 bf for a pretty decent day but these are bigger boards than my average and should saw out pretty quickly I would think.

 Minimum charges I'd charge: If he had help stacking I'd saw it for about $.35/bf in my area (Probably too cheap). If I had to rough stack it I'd charge $.425/bf and if I had to sticker it I'd charge $.50/bf. I'd also charge mileage. I'd also charge sales tax unless he provided me a sales tax exemption form.

  Many people here on the FF charge much more, some are similar and around me so saw for less. Charge what you think covers your expenses and fair compensation for your time and labor. Good luck.
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

Ljohnsaw

On my totally manual mill (20hp) with a SkyTrak to load, my best day (with one person helping) was 1,700 bdft.  Typically I do around 700-1000 bdft working alone.  That includes sticker stacking.
John Sawicky

Just North-East of Sacramento...

SkyTrak 9038, Ford 545D FEL, Davis Little Monster backhoe, Case 16+4 Trencher, Home Built 42" capacity/36" cut Bandmill up to 54' long - using it all to build a timber frame cabin.

Kombucha20

Thanks for the replies a lot of good info for me. To give a little more info about my setup is:
I have no hydraulics.
I'll be working by myself.
I will have customers loader to load logs. 
Customer is going to be using this wood right away so no stickering.
The job is probley 5km away from me and it's in wood land where slabs and junk won't matter where it goes.
No chance of hitting metal
I'm in the maritimes in Canada  
Thanks everyone 

WV Sawmiller

   Good luck. I have said many times here be sure both you and the customer understand and agree to the rates, terms and conditions before making the first cut. It sounds like a friend or acquaintance and you want him to remain so after the job. If hourly, let him know when the clock starts and and ends. BF looks pretty clear but be sure you are clear on the exact sizes the customer wants and a 2X10 is 2"X 10" and not 1.5" X 9.5" or such. Does he want perfectly clear wood or is a little bark on one side okay.
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

moosehunter

"No chance of hitting metal"
:D :D :o ::)
Sorry, I couldn't resist.
I hear that from most EVERY client that calls me. The jobs I don't hit metal on are far fewer than the jobs I do.
mh
"And the days that I keep my gratitude
Higher than my expectations
Well, I have really good days".    Ray Wylie Hubbard

Kombucha20

So I finished my first full day of sawing and a few hours yesterday.
If I did my math right I'm around 575 bf milled, I still have a few resaws to do that I didn't count.  Once I got looking at the logs I found there's not a straight one in the pile. There big but not straight and I have to cut them to length with my saw and and cut off any branches nubs. So when working out a price I'm thinking one price for  hours on my mill and one for the labour to get the log ready for the mill? Has any one done this? I don't think charging by the bf on this job is gonna work for me 

SawyerTed

 Sounds like you had a productive day.  I started with a board foot rate but later on switched to an hourly rate.  On my hourly rate, I subtracted time for breaks, lunch and sawmill downtime.

My hourly rate was my hourly rate no matter what I was doing - running the sawmill, trimming logs, stacking lumber, moving slabs, shoveling sawdust all were the same hourly rate.  That puts the incentive on the customer to take care of log prep and to have sufficient help on hand. 

Everyone has to work out their rates based on individual circumstances.  Don't make it too complicated though.  Always reserve the right to reduce a charge for any reason you choose.  I often waive my setup fee for nearby neighbors or repeat customers.
Woodmizer LT50, WM BMS 250, WM BMT 250, Kubota MX5100, IH McCormick Farmall 140, Husqvarna 372XP, Husqvarna 455 Rancher

Stephen1

Quote from: SawyerTed on May 12, 2022, 08:25:43 PM
Sounds like you had a productive day.  I started with a board foot rate but later on switched to an hourly rate.  On my hourly rate, I subtracted time for breaks, lunch and sawmill downtime.

My hourly rate was my hourly rate no matter what I was doing - running the sawmill, trimming logs, stacking lumber, moving slabs, shoveling sawdust all were the same hourly rate.  That puts the incentive on the customer to take care of log prep and to have sufficient help on hand.

Everyone has to work out their rates based on individual circumstances.  Don't make it too complicated though.  Always reserve the right to reduce a charge for any reason you choose.  I often waive my setup fee for nearby neighbors or repeat customers.
I have been hourly since I started 12 years ago. I do not deduct any time for lunch and coffee. I take 20-30 mins for lunch. and breaks are when I change the blade. I make sure eveyone stops for a few minutes when I am changing blades. I have produced any where from 4000+ bd ft in a day with big logs and big beams and 2 young men that could work. It was the only time I used 2 tanks of gas on the old 93 LT40HD with the 24 onan that day. 
I have days where it's only 500 bd ft of crappy logs, nothing ready , logs all over,  or big logs that we slabbed. 
I still make a good day's pay.
If you are loosing money sawing you might as well go Fishing or Golfing. 
IDRY Vacum Kiln, LT40HDWide, BMS250 sharpener/setter 742b Bobcat, TCM forklift, Sthil 026,038, 461. 1952 TEA Fergusan Tractor

WV Sawmiller

K20,

   Did you discuss charges for work outside sawing? If not billing for it can get messy. If you were clear about the customer responsibility for log prep then you are still covered as it is obvious you did more work and he should expect to pay more but the amount could be an issue.

    It is a normal practice to charge for outside work and the intention is first to encourage the customer to have the logs properly prepared. Second is to make sure the sawyer is adequately compensated for non-sawing work. Some sawyers charge the same rate for prep work or stacking or such as they do for sawing. Some charge less, some charge more if they really hate those tasks. That is a decision you need to make and discuss with the next customer before accepting the job.

   If you are finding things you did not think include or mention don't sweat it. We all do/did with our first jobs. If you mention to a good client the extra work or expenses incurred he will offer to compensate you. If not write it off as a learning experience but be leery if the same client wants you to saw for him again and be sure he knows of any changes in rates.
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

RAYAR

Welcome to the FF, Kombucha20. Good luck on your first custom sawing job.

I'm in the Moncton area myself.
mobile manual mill (custom build) (mods & additions on-going)
Custom built auto band sharpener (currently under mods)
Husqvarna 50, 61, 254XP (and others)
96 Polaris Sportsman 500
2006 Ranger 4X2 w/cap, manual trans (430,000 Km)

Kombucha20

So another update
I have around 24 hours in on the job, that include taking the mill and setting up and everything
I have around 955 bf sawed.
I can’t figure out how to post pictures on this site to show what I’m working with, might because I’m using my phone I cant post them.

Now I have another question I have I was gonna start a new topic but i figured I’d post in here first

When calculating board feet
2x6x16=16 bf
When milling to box store size like
1.5x5.5x16= 11 bf

Do you calculate the full 2x6x16 dimensions or the actual dimension 1.5x5.5x16
If you were charging by the board foot?
This is probably a stupid question lol

Magicman

For picture posting, go to the bottom of the index page and view the video illustrating how to set your picture gallery up and post pictures.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

SawyerTed

Quote from: Kombucha20 on May 14, 2022, 04:55:03 PM
Do you calculate the full 2x6x16 dimensions or the actual dimension 1.5x5.5x16
If you were charging by the board foot?
This is probably a stupid question lol
Everyone is different.  I used actual lumber measurements to calculate board feet.  EDIT: Anything less than 1" thick is calculated at 1" thick. 

No stupid questions except the ones you don't ask that get you in trouble.
Woodmizer LT50, WM BMS 250, WM BMT 250, Kubota MX5100, IH McCormick Farmall 140, Husqvarna 372XP, Husqvarna 455 Rancher

Kombucha20

I figured out how to post pictures 

Here's what I'm into 
The log on the mill is the straightest one I found 





















TroyC

Looking good, but I'm thinking that offset pith on the beams might cause some problems. I'm sure some pros w will chime in.....

TroyC

Quote from: Kombucha20 on May 14, 2022, 04:55:03 PMWhen milling to box store size like 1.5x5.5x16= 11 bf


Be sure to look into drying and shrinkage. If you cut to 1.5x5.5xwhatever, you will have a skinny board in a few months.

Kombucha20

Quote from: TroyC on May 14, 2022, 07:44:18 PM
Looking good, but I'm thinking that offset pith on the beams might cause some problems. I'm sure some pros w will chime in.....
Yeah I was kinda thinking that too, I tried to keep the pith in the Center but when I cut it down to a 4x8 I kinda lost the Center,  I'm still pretty new to milling yet haha these are gonna be cut and used as cosmetic and not structural.
Quote from: TroyC on May 14, 2022, 07:49:59 PM
Quote from: Kombucha20 on May 14, 2022, 04:55:03 PMWhen milling to box store size like 1.5x5.5x16= 11 bf


Be sure to look into drying and shrinkage. If you cut to 1.5x5.5xwhatever, you will have a skinny board in a few months.

Most of this lumber is being used right away for forms so shrinking isn't an issue for this stuff, but great point tho!


 

beenthere

Use the nominal size to calculate board feet. That is what is used if you go to a lumber yard and buy dimension lumber that is actual size less than the nominal. 
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Kombucha20

@beenthere
that's good to know, that will make by board foot count go up. 
Thanks 

KenMac

I figure board footage at actual lumber size. I do saw 1/8 over for nominal dimensions. ( 1 5/8x 5 5/8 for 2x6).
Also a Construction Master 5 calculator greatly simplifies the math. About $50 at Lowe's or HD.
Cook's AC3667t, Cat Claw sharpener, Dual tooth setter, and Band Roller, Kubota B26 TLB, Takeuchi TB260C

WV Sawmiller

   Calculate the bf based on whatever you discuss with the client before sawing! Some use the nominal dimensions, some use the actual (I.e a 6/4 board is calculated as 1.5" instead of 2"). I agree on the less than 1" is calculated as an inch but that is listed on my website and I discuss it with the client. I bill 5/4 as 1.25" but 1-1/16" to 1-1/8" I bill as 1".

   Some people calculate the bf of a log as an estimate from a table. Others use actually bf tally at the end of the job. The estimate protects the sawyer if the client brings a log that does not produce good lumber as expected. The actual bf can reward the sawyer if the log yields more than the log rules/estimates.

  All methods are fair as long as you discuss and agree before sawing or selling lumber.

   Every job is a learning experience so you should get more efficient (and more valuable) the more you saw. Don't be afraid to try new techniques but don't be ashamed to admit to a client it is new to you before messing with his wood. I often cut a practice log from my stock before trying the technique on client logs. Barring that I tell him it is new to me but I will try if he wants me to.
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

WV Sawmiller

   How is this job coming? Did you finish yet? Any more lessons learned to share with the rest of us?
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

Kombucha20

I did finish the job, it was around 1500 board feet. I told the guy it was gonna be around 1200$ and I would show him a breakdown of what I did. Then I was in a lumber grading course for 2 weeks and wasn't talking to the customer and the he showed up at my house with 1200$ for me and I said i can get the computer and show him and he said I didn't have to and he was good with it. So in the end I charged 60$ milling time and 30$ an hour for labour. I'm happy with what I got 

On another note I just got my lumber grading license! 

Stephen1

Congratulations Kombucha20. What grading license did you get and where are you located?
IDRY Vacum Kiln, LT40HDWide, BMS250 sharpener/setter 742b Bobcat, TCM forklift, Sthil 026,038, 461. 1952 TEA Fergusan Tractor

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