Borate solution mix ratio??

[willmyers0169]

i think the product i bought at home depot was called board defense and it was $35.00/LB.  the bottle said to mix with one gallon of water with one pound of solution.  i applied it through my weed sprayer which immediately clogged up  so i removed the concentrated tip and this seemed to use way to much material.  This stuff is to expensive to apply like that.  anybody got and tips for me?

[wetdog]

I went to a "Bug Man" and asked about some product to buy from him when I started cutting my house wood. He sent me to the local farmer's co-op. There I bought a product farmers use to treat the ground for cotton. It was called Solubor (20% Boron). If I remember right, it was under $40 for 50 lbs. He told me to use one pound to one gallon water. It mixed well, especially if the water was a little warm from the sun. He told me to treat the logs as soon as they hit the ground and then use very generously on my boards after cutting. I have had good luck with no bugs while drying.

[POSTON WIDEHEAD]

WDH will chime in soon. He knows this stuff. 

[willmyers0169]

POSTON what do you treat your SYP with?

[POSTON WIDEHEAD]

POSTON what do you treat your SYP with?

Respect..... thats about it.

100% of the Pine I saw goes to barns and other farm use. Our Pine use around here is treated with the same stuff they used 100 years ago......nothing.
However......If I were sawing Pine to be used for indoor furniture, cabinets etc. I would be a little concern and would be looking for something to spray it with.

Seriously, WDH (Danny) does know quite a bit about this process. He will be a big help.


******* I would like to ask the question: When did spraying wood to prevent bug infestation begin?*********
Anybody can answer if you know. Thanks.

The reason I ask this question is, #1, I don't know. #2, Wood never was sprayed years ago...so what are the odds of getting infestation? The only bug I get in Pine is Southern Pine Beetle and it dies as the log dries.

[Sixacresand]

Like Wetdog, I use Solubor and apply it to just-sawed lumber with a pump up sprayer.  I asked my local feed and seed store order it. 

[POSTON WIDEHEAD]

You were talking about it stopping up your sprayer......I think I saw WDH sifting his through a sifter to break down the lumps before it went into the water. Sifting it makes it dissolve quicker.

[willmyers0169]

POSTON what do you treat your SYP with?

Respect..... thats about it.

100% of the Pine I saw goes to barns and other farm use. Our Pine use around here is treated with the same stuff they used 100 tears ago......nothing.
However......If I were sawing Pine to be used for indoor furniture, cabinets etc. I would be a little concern and would be looking for something to spray it with.

Seriously, WDH (Danny) does know quite a bit about this process. He will be a big help.


******* I would like to ask the question: When did spraying wood to prevent bug infestation begin?*********
Anybody can answer if you know. Thanks.

The reason I ask this question is, #1, I don't know. #2, Wood never was sprayed years ago...so what are the odds of getting infestation? The only bug I get in Pine is Southern Pine Beetle and it dies as the log dries.

Good questions...  I know on the old buildings around the farm, they have heart pine which is too hard for the bugs, this wood today is so soft a fruit fly can damage it.  But if i am using the wood on the barns or sheds i dont treat it either.  i made some planter boxes from beetle kill pine for a customer that are gonna sit on his porch and didnt want to take a chance of delivering him an infestation! :laugh:

good idea on the sifter.

[POSTON WIDEHEAD]

  i made some planter boxes from beetle kill pine for a customer that are gonna sit on his porch and didnt want to take a chance of delivering him an infestation! :laugh:

good idea on the sifter.

If asking your question is because you have your customer in mind.....you are a good Sawyer in my book.
Thumbs up! 

[POSTON WIDEHEAD]

I sawed these today for a customer who builds farm table for hunting lodges.
He never sprays his wood and says he's never had a problem.
Do I recommend spraying.....by all means. If WDH recommends it....I recommend it.
I'm just saying, I've never had a problem.

I've heard people say....if you don't spray the wood...the bugs can get into the wood in your house.
Well here's my other question.......was the wood in your house not sprayed before use by the lumber company?
I'll bet it was.
Here's my 3rd question......how long does the spray last for? If your wood in your home was sprayed for infestation from the lumber company......why do I have to worry about un-sprayed flower boxes?


 

[WDH]

You don't need to spray pine because the species of powderpost beetle that are the scourges that we hate in hardwood do not infest pine. 

Solubor is 98% Disodium Octaborate Tetrahydrate.  It is used for providing elemental boron into liquid fertilizer spray mixes that farmers use to spray on their fields.  It is a powder that dissolves in water.  I mix 6#'s of the Solubor to 5 gallons of water.  You can also mix it 1 pound of powder to 1 gallon of water, but I make mine just a little bit stronger.  The 1 pound per gallon yields a solution that contains .2 pounds of elemental boron per gallon since the Solubor is 20% boron.  I buy Solubor in the 50# bag at my local Ag Chemical supply store for $50 for a 50 pound bag, so the cost of the spray is just a bit over $1.00 per gallon.

You can also get a liquid boron concentrate at the AG chemical store that is 10% boron.  To get the same concentration as 1 pound of Disodium Octaborate Tetrahydrate in 1 gallon of water, you need to add 28 ounces of the 10% liquid concentrate to 1 gallon of water.  This also yields a solution with .2 pounds of boron per gallon of water.  The liquid boron concentrate is about twice the cost versus the Solubor, about $2.00 per gallon of spray mixture, but it is much easier to mix, and you will not have any clogging of your spray nozzle. 

Solubor is best mixed a day ahead.  Fill up a 5 gallon bucket about 80% full, then add 5 or 6 pounds of Solubor powder to the water.  Mix well.  Let stand for a few hours, then stir vigorously again.  Let sit until the next day, then stir well again.  When you pour the solution into a spayer, use a screen to catch any undissolved lumps of powder.  I use a 25 gallon ATV type sprayer that also has a screen on the intake hose, and I do not have clogging problems.  Spray the lumber until wet to the point of saturation or run-off.  It is best then to flat stack the boards for several hours to let the boron be absorbed into the wood to the maximum effect if you have time to do that.  Otherwise, sticker stack it wet.  It also helps to get all the sawdust off the boards before you spray them.

Another time saving trick is to flat stack the boards in single tall layers as they come off the sawmill so that you can spray all the edges very quickly and easily.  Once the edges are sprayed, you can spread them out in a single layer and spray both sides.   A dip tank would work well, but I do not have the operational scale to justify one. 

[POSTON WIDEHEAD]

I told ya he would know. You tell'm Pop! :D

[willmyers0169]

I told ya he would know. You tell'm Pop! :D

you werent kidding.  i didnt learn that much in my 9th grade science class the 2nd time :D  By the way POSTON and WDH i am probly right in between the two of you so if yall ever want to meet 1/2 way and share some more of that knowledge on a all manual LT15 by all means come on.  free food and lodging.

[POSTON WIDEHEAD]

I told ya he would know. You tell'm Pop! :D

you werent kidding.  i didnt learn that much in my 9th grade science class the 2nd time :D  By the way POSTON and WDH i am probly right in between the two of you so if yall ever want to meet 1/2 way and share some more of that knowledge on a all manual LT15 by all means come on.  free food and lodging.

Since you live in between us....Danny, pick me up on your way.....I loves to eat.  ;D

[WDH]

He is a lot closer to me than you are, Cappytondo, so you just might go hungry. 

Will,

I have a few hours on a manual LT15 myself  ;D.

[POSTON WIDEHEAD]

I have a few hours on a manual LT15 myself  ;D.

Will......Danny has pushed an LT15 so long, he has a path along side the mill.  :D
I'm glad he upgraded......he'll live longer.  ;D

[WDH]

Power feed is Man's second best friend. 

[POSTON WIDEHEAD]

Power feed is Man's second best friend.

I noticed you spelled Power with a capital letter (P).....shows respect.  :D :D :D :D :D

[willmyers0169]

He is a lot closer to me than you are, Cappytondo, so you just might go hungry. 

Will,

I have a few hours on a manual LT15 myself  ;D.

im loving mine.  dont get to spend nearly the time i want with her but if i did my wife would probably find her a city boy without a sawmill or farm 

[tule peak timber]

Has anyone used bora-care ? I went through several gallons of it with poor results against powder post beetles. The kiln is 100% effective with heat , and as far as chemicals I  had to resort to a licensed contractor with Vicane to kill the little guys in my ash. I looked up solubor , but not sure it is legal in my county....Rob

[customsawyer]

Willnyers0169 why don't you come on down for the sycamore project and WDH can open up the class room doors for you. ;)

[Holmes]

Can it be mixed with warm or hot water to help dissolve the borate?

[WDH]

Dana,

Yes, hot water really improves the dissolution of the powder.

Tule,

Look at the bora-care label.  It is 40% disodium octaborate tetrahydrate, the same compound that is in Solubor and Beau-Ron D, both fertilizer additives.  Also the same compound that is in Timbor.  Timbor and Solubor and Beau-Ron D and Timbor are all 98% disodium octaborate tetrahydrate.  The only difference is the cost with Timbor costing 3 times the cost of Solubor and Beau-Ron D.  It is all in the labeling and the advertising.  Bora-care costs even more than Timbor.  I believe that Bora-care also contains some type of glycol to add absorption and penetration into the wood. 

Check out the labels by Googling "Solubor Label" or "Timbor Label".  Here is a link to the Bora-care label.

http://www.pestgon.com/PDF/MSDS-Labels/BoraCare%20MSDS.pdf

[PineNut]

I use a Bora-care equivalent and flow the solution over the lumber. One advantage of this is a very long life of the dilute solution, months for 1:5 dilution. The glycol keeps the lumber wet longer and promotes better penetration of the chemicals into the lumber. There are no crystals on the timber after treatment. This posting shows my setup.

https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,25537.msg884061.html#msg884061

[thecfarm]

I wonder too was the bugs that bad 100 years ago?

[willmyers0169]

Willnyers0169 why don't you come on down for the sycamore project and WDH can open up the class room doors for you. ;)

i am really wanting to.  I am a volunteer FF and do extrication training and i am trying to get together a class for may and the 24th is one of the possible dates. but once it gets set in stone i will let you know. i would love the learning experience.  thanks for the invite.       

Will

[JRHill]

Hi folks,

I have a general laborer helping with retreatment of our log cabin. He pressure washed and followed up with Board Defense (came with the logs). Then he covered the windows and reapplied the TWP. I didn't notice until later but the over spray from the Board Defense got on the window glass and dried. Dang. It doesn't even want to come off well with a blade - there's still a haze left behind.

Does anyone have idea as to what will dissolve the borax overspray? Glass is one thing, the cladding on the frames is another.

Thx in advance,
Jim

[Don P]

Try a test area of antifreeze, if that doesn't work try mayonnaise. Basically something that will stay "wet" for a long time to help soften and dissolve the crystals, don't let them dry. Then cleanup with windex and water.

[Woodpecker52]

I use 20 mule team borax,  I mix a cup of borax to I gallon of hot water in a pump sprayer to kill blue stain in pine and stop bug and fungal damage.  I also will use copper sulfate crystals in water that does a good job.  I also will use Copper Green about $24 a gallon 10% copper nap. when I want to use pine in exposed near ground contact like a recently built tractor shed.

[JRHill]

Try a test area of antifreeze, if that doesn't work try mayonnaise. Basically something that will stay "wet" for a long time to help soften and dissolve the crystals, don't let them dry. Then cleanup with windex and water.

I think I'll try the Mayo 1st as I had a dreadful accident with antifreeze years ago. I don't even keep it in the shop anymore. Too many critters are drawn to it and its a gruesome death. I understand your point and thank you for the ideas.
Best, JRH

[moodnacreek]

I wonder too was the bugs that bad 100 years ago?

While I don't know about down south or Maine I can tell you that in southeast N.Y. the  bugs are like never before; powder post, termites and carpenter bees.

[JRHill]

I wonder too was the bugs that bad 100 years ago?

While I don't know about down south or Maine I can tell you that in southeast N.Y. the  bugs are like never before; powder post, termites and carpenter bees.

Depends where you are, apparently. In our part of the Pacific NW we've never had less ticks and skeeters. They are about non-existent this year. We are having a continuing increase in beetle kill in certain stands but it doesn't seem that managed stands are less affected than wild growth. Its just more obvious in the dense wild stands and, of course, more are affected in that small area. *DanG, those places are almost always DNR and Tribal allotments. They don't do 6!@#%^&* with their lands. But the DNR wants to pay us to manage ours. And they want to inventory and crawl everywhere. neat-o cockroaches. If they'd manage their own land then we might talk. And my forest would be healthier as a result. But, er, I'd somehow pay dearly along with everyone else. They shouldn't own land. (Admin edit)WHY DO THEY OWN LAND THEY DO NOT CARE FOR UPKEEP?
I guess its rhetorical. Sigh.

[JRHill]

I use 20 mule team borax,  I mix a cup of borax to I gallon of hot water in a pump sprayer to kill blue stain in pine and stop bug and fungal damage.  I also will use copper sulfate crystals in water that does a good job.  I also will use Copper Green about $24 a gallon 10% copper nap. when I want to use pine in exposed near ground contact like a recently built tractor shed.

I have to build a wall on the back side of our cold frame. The back side is north facing so no sun exposure. Originally I had a plastic sheet across it but it is now gone as the main plastic cover failed and we stripped the whole frame. So this time I will put in vertical planks and the most recently milled are ponderosa pine - 1x16s. I know that PP is terrible for ground contact and noticed that copper sulfate was recommended for ground proximity pine. I haven't found many options in this area. Are 99% Pure Copper Sulfate Pentahydrate Crystals that are available from HD (special order here abouts) appropriate for the PP areas close to the ground?
Ref: HD Copper Sulfate
Best,
Jim