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Going to build Jack Sobon's house

Started by Matthew Tzib, September 13, 2011, 09:49:55 PM

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Matthew Tzib

Hi there, I am going to build Jack Sobon's "classic, timber-framed house" on a small lot - 70' wide by 100' deep - in Belize.

I've chosen timber framing and the hall-and-parlor house plan for a few reasons.

This method and plan are historical to Belize.  That's important to me.  Belize was first settled by the English and while I don't know of any timber framed buildings that old - the Spanish regularly razed the settlement - I assume the English brought timber framing and the hall-and-parlor house plan along with them like they did everywhere else they settled.  The old American embassy in Belize City is timber framed hall-and-parlor house.  It was cut and raised in New England, shipped to Belize as ballast, and raised again.  This seems to have been more common in the Caribbean where wood must have been much more scarce than it was, and is, in Belize.  There's a nice example on Eleuthera in the Bahamas.  There are probably other timber framed buildings in Belize City and the major towns, like up north in Corozal Town which grew up around an English fort that aided Mayans in their wars against the Spanish.  The old building codes mention mortise and tenon construction.

Belizeans still build with wood.  Many build with great timbers and great spikes - a kind of joint-less timber framing - and the Mennonites build a popular framed house that they ship all over the countryside.

Timber framing and the hall-and-parlor house are also ideal for the climate.  Authorities on building for climate say that once a place is so hot and so humid you have to build light - relative to masonry - and for shade and breeze.  Timber framing and this plan are easily built to that standard.

The thick walled and high ceilinged buildings favoured by the Mayans, and then the Spanish, and now the Mestizos are also historical - arguably more so than any English practice or plan - and ideal for the climate.  But those once thick walls are thinner now and those once high ceilings are lower now and the once cool Mayan huts and Spanish hacienda great houses are little Mestizo ovens.  You can't move a masonry house either, and that's something I'd like to do.

I am going to add to the house's frame in two bigs ways.  I am going to add a porch.  And I am going to add an "ell".

The porch will be the width of the house, 9' to 10' deep, and two storeys tall with a shed roof.  I think the value of a porch is obvious in a tropical place.  Think of the kind of porch you see across the South on what some call a plantation house.

The ell will be the size of a bay rotated, so 18' wide and 14' deep, and two storeys tall.  The ell is primarily for the kitchen - Belizeans have something like a summer kitchen they use all year.  A nice pot of beans can make a house uncomfortably warm so a well ventilated kitchen off the back will keep the living and dining rooms nice and cool.  I might put the restroom in the ell as well, because this is a natural place for a room that was originally an out-building.

Before I design a porch and an ell I'd like to ask if plans for such things already exist.  Ideally, Mr. Sobon has drawn up these plans.  This way they'd be true to his hall-and-parlor house and keep the house's historical authenticity and stability.

If that's not the case, has anybody else added a porch or an ell or both to this house?  If so, how did you go about it and what were your experiences?  I've seen a few ideas.  I'm especially interested in how it used to be done.  Unfortunately I'm nowhere near Belize or any other place you'd find a deep porch or even any place you'd find an older, timber framed building so I can't just investigate for myself

In addition to these additions, I have some other questions about the house as well.

What is the spacing of the rafters and attic joists?  I've drawn the house up in SketchUp but I cannot figure this out.

I'm going to use straps and screw the rafters but I'd also like to pin the posts to the sills and the posts to the tie beams for hurricanes.  I don't know what to do at the bottom.  I have an idea of the options at the top, but I don't know how easily I can find jowelled posts and don't think I favour those Dutch braces I've seen mentioned - not sure of the name.  Is it possible to have a less robust tying joint with a rectangular post?  I'll certainly ask about jowelled posts though.

Finally, are any of the pins 'blind'?  Or does each pin pass entirely through the mortised beam and the tenon?  I'm thinking here about the braces that I've drawn up in Sketchup with 3" pins.  I don't think that's right.

Thank you all for your help.  All of you, especially Jim Rogers, are a real blessing and help.  I've learned so much reading here.  If any of you has anything to add that I haven't touched on here, I'd be happy to hear about it.  I'd be especially interested with your experiences building in tropical climates - I saw some projects in Costa Rica and Thailand - and with tropical hardwoods.  I'm thinking of using sapodilla wood.

ljmathias

Welcome to the Forum!  You sound like you have a great foundation on which to start your planning- lots of planning needed to build a house.  You're not just putting together a frame but making an integrated structure and you've already given some thought to what a timber frame will give you in your climate and how to make changes you want- the porch is a great addition and the ell a nice challenge.  Others with more experience in the Sobon house will chime in shortly and help with overall planning plus details of joinery you asked about.  This will be a long project unless you can devote all your time to it, so plan on years rather than less then one to get everything finished.

Have patience and discipline-   :)

Lj
LT40, Long tractor with FEL and backhoe, lots of TF tools, beautiful wife of 50 years plus 4 kids, 5 grandsons AND TWO GRANDDAUGHTERS all healthy plus too many ideas and plans and not enough time and energy

Jim_Rogers

I will be seeing Jack Sobon on 9/23/11 at his workshop at the Shaker Village in Hancock, MA.
I can ask him if he ever added a porch or if he knows of anyone who did.

Also, a forum member, Raphael lives in a Sobon timber framed house. He may have some advice for you about these things. Hopefully he will step up and post some comments. In the meantime you could view some of his photos in his gallery at: https://forestryforum.com/gallery/index.php?cat=12870

And I think he has some videos of working on his house at: http://www.youtube.com/user/TimberGeek

Good luck with your project and thanks for your kind comments.

Jim Rogers
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

Matthew Tzib

ljmathias, thank you.  I do have a lot of work ahead.  I have a few years to plan where I am now and a year put aside to build the house in Belize - nothing else, just building the house.  The piers the house will sit on will already be there.  Is a year reasonable?  Thanks again for your comments.  I've enjoyed reading about your house.

Mr. Rogers, thank you very much.  If Mr. Sobon has or if he knows anybody who has, that'd be a great help.  In the event he hasn't or doesn't I'll keep playing with this model in SketchUp and put my plans up for review then.

Are you able to comment on the spacing of the attic joists and rafters?

I was looking at Raphael's gallery today and I'll be sure to search his posts later this evening.  It is such a handsome house.

Jim_Rogers

On page 41 of his book shows a side view of the frame with the dimension on the rafters of being 2' 8" on center.

The attic joists are 16" on center so that there is a rafter over every other joist.

Also, if you look at my post requesting if anyone would be interested in buy a dvd of how to create a scale model of a timber frame, you'll see a picture of a scale model I built of this frame.

To build the scale model I had to create a couple of drawings of the frame. In order to create these drawings I drew the entire frame in my 3d cad program.

I would suggest to you to make a model of your frame so that you can see every piece and understand how every bent and other assemblies go together.

I can help you with your plans if you wish to make a model. Just let me know.

Jim Rogers
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

Matthew Tzib

Mr. Rogers, thanks again for your reply.

I am drawing the house in SketchUp to scale with all the joinery detail.  I'm not using rubies - never took the time to learn to use them.  I have drawn all the timbers of the hall-and-parlor house except the attic joists, nailing plate, and the rafters - except the four joined to the tie beams and, possibly, posts.  I have attempted to draw the attic joists several times, but I cannot duplicate the plans.  I'm guessing the problem is not that the attic joists are spaced on 16" centres and the rafters on 32" centres, but that I don't know where to measure from and that this is a typical measurement?  For example, if you start at the west of the house measuring and marking every 16" to the east of the house, you simply cannot duplicate the plans.  Same with the rafters - unless I've drawn the joinery incorrectly, and I double-checked a few times, the rafters cannot be on 32" centres and still have four of them join the tie-beams.  Does this all make sense?

Thank you again for your reply and help.  I'm looking forward to hearing what Mr. Sobon has to say.  After that, I'll draw up the whole house, with the porch and ell and any other changes I have in mind, and see if I don't put it up here and see what some think.

Jim_Rogers

See attached pdf file and see if this helps you to understand the attic joists layout dimensions.
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

Matthew Tzib

Mr. Rogers, that makes sense.  I'm going to draw that this evening.  Thank you again.  Now that I see it, I think I could have figured it out, but this makes it much easier.

Jim_Rogers

A new plan showing how I made the rafters and attic floor joists line up, is posted below.
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

Raphael

Quote from: Matthew Tzib on September 13, 2011, 09:49:55 PM

I'm going to use straps and screw the rafters but I'd also like to pin the posts to the sills and the posts to the tie beams for hurricanes.  I don't know what to do at the bottom.  I have an idea of the options at the top, but I don't know how easily I can find jowelled posts and don't think I favour those Dutch braces I've seen mentioned - not sure of the name.  Is it possible to have a less robust tying joint with a rectangular post?  I'll certainly ask about jowelled posts though.

Finally, are any of the pins 'blind'?  Or does each pin pass entirely through the mortised beam and the tenon?  I'm thinking here about the braces that I've drawn up in Sketchup with 3" pins.  I don't think that's right.


3" pins will weaken your frame severely, the original plan calls for 13/16" pegs and I believe Jack recommends 7/8" if you plan on going with a different size. That said knee braces and girts could be pegged with 3/4" and post to beam connections can be pegged with 1" (especially if you go with rectangular posts, which will work just fine).

My sills are tied to the poured concrete foundation with the longest "J" bolts I could buy and I tied the posts to the sills with metal straps but the post's bottom tenons could be lengthened and pegged.

The only pegs that are blind are those connecting the girts to the posts but they are drilled through.

My ell and shed are only single story and designed with panels in mind so not strictly traditional.  Making them 2 stories would require adjustment to the roof framing to avoid winding up with a ~2.5 ft. eve wall on the second floor.  You might be better off making the entire frame deeper and adding additional prick posts to support the beams.
... he was middle aged,
and the truth hit him like a man with no parachute.
--Godley & Creme

Stihl 066, MS 362 C-M & 24+ feet of Logosol M7 mill

Jim_Rogers

I have posted it here on this forum, but I'm not completely sure where right now, but the tenon width should be 1/4 the timber width. So for an 8x8 timber the tenon is 2" thick. For pegs, the pegs are usually 1/2 the tenon thickness. So for a 2" thick tenon the peg should be 1" diameter.
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

Matthew Tzib

Yes, sorry, 3" was the length of the pegs for the braces - not the diameter.  I've since noticed that the picture on the back cover of Mr. Sobon's book clearly shows the pegs go through the whole post.

Thank you Raphael for your response.

Jim_Rogers

So Friday, I had a meeting with Jack Sobon at the Shaker Village where he was teaching a workshop.

I mentioned to him that you wanted to add a two story porch across the front of the house.

He said he didn't know of anyone who had ever tried that.

His suggestion was to have each floor level to be one step down from the finished floor level of that floor elevation. And that the ceiling on the second floor could be low like 7' or so to give you a good roof line. Basically one step down from inside the house out onto either porch.

I asked him if I could contact him about your design for advice. He said yes, but we can't take up a lot of his time asking lots of questions.

I don't know if he has ever seen it framed "historically". I didn't ask him that.

He said that most of the porch framing would have to be done with some rot resistant wood as it will be out in the open and exposed to rain.

Jim Rogers
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

Jim_Rogers

If I was going to design this porch idea, I might do it something like the attached drawings.

This way the house roof is not intersected with the porch roof.

Jim Rogers
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

Raphael

A step down would seem the only way to make it work, that's how I attached the tie beams on my shed extension.  Be sure to offset your tenons so the shed's tenons aren't directly below those of the main frame.

My pegs are 12+ inches long, something of a must if you plan on draw boring.
... he was middle aged,
and the truth hit him like a man with no parachute.
--Godley & Creme

Stihl 066, MS 362 C-M & 24+ feet of Logosol M7 mill

routestep

I put three inch long tenons on the bottom of the posts to a barn that I am raising. I plan to  either peg or bolt through the sills into the tenons and avoid the straps. The sills are bolted to the concrete foundation. The bents went up without any damage to the tenons.

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