Selling Kiln Dried lumber

[whittle1]

I just completed drying 1700bdft of pine down to 8%mc and finished at 160 deg. for 36hrs. Some of these boards had signs of beetle damage small holes in the face of the board when planed. I feel confident that they have been sterilized and are going to tongue and groove these and use on the ceiling of my house. I have some requests to buy some of this, but now after reading some horror stories on here of people being accused of infesting someone's home from the lumber you sold them I'm a little Leary of selling to the public. I only have my word and written records of the Kiln drying schedule, but no electronic chart recorder that documents this. How do you guys deal with this?  Or do you just not sell any boards that have had beetle damage? 
How far away should you store dried from green? I will add some pictures when I get them.

[WDH]

I sell it all the time as rustic lumber.  It is a big seller for me. 

[whittle1]

Here are some pictures of the boards with signs of beetles. If anyone can identify them it would be much appreciated. Like I said above I'm not afraid to use these in my house just not sure if I should sell them. These were air dried for several years before going in the kiln. The boards averaged 13% mc when put in the kiln.

 

 

 

[whittle1]

Hey WDH we have the same initials. Do you advertise it as being heat treated or sterilized? Any worries about future lawsuits if they end up with an infestation even if not from your wood? Just not sure how I will be able to prove it was bug free when sold. 
Thanks for your reply and I agree it should be a good selling item.

[Don P]

It depends on your level of concern. I think both SPIB and TP have a HT stamp program.

[caveman]

Those holes with the black halos were created by ambrosia beetles.  They likely bugged out when the moisture content dropped below 20%.  If you had it at 160 for three days, there is nothing living in your boards.  That length at that heat should do a good job of setting the pitch in the pine. 

[whittle1]

Thanks caveman I agree that nothing is living in these boards just not sure how I prove it if it ever became an issue. I guess I got these concerns from reading a few posts on here where it did become a problem. Fortunately the posts I read turned out to be in favor of the seller but they still had to prove they were not at fault.  You can prove it was kiln dried with a moisture meter but what other than your records do you have that prove it was sterilized.  

[whittle1]

How do you tell the difference between powder post beetle and ambrosia beetle. There are conflicting statements on google where some say the lyctid powder post only affects hardwood while others say they will also infect pine.  

[Ianab]

The dark fungal staining around the holes means the wood was wet when the Ambrosia grub was active. That staining doesn't happen with PP beetles, because they attack dry wood. 

There is more than one sort of borer beetle. The Anobium borer is keen on dry pine. Different species of wood and beetle, but same end result. 

[WDH]

The holes made by ambrosia beetles are usually black lined and the holes are open.  Powderpost beetle holes are just a bit smaller, not stained or black lined, and filled, stuffed full, of frass which is essentially powderpost beetle poop.  The lyctid powderpost beetle that is such a scourge in hardwood does not infest pine.  There are some others that do, but they do not seem to be as big of a problem and the lyctid powderpost beetles are in hardwood.

The pencil eraser size holes in your wood are neither ambrosia beetles or powderpost beetles.  They are made by pine sawyer beetles and those holes are made by their white grubs with the dark head.  The live in dead or rotted wood.  Besides the larger holes they make, they are harmless and your heat treatment nuked them.  If I did not sell kiln dried pine with some beetle holes, I would sell much less pine. 

I disclose this information to customers so that they understand.  However, many customers seek out that pine because of the beetle holes and fungal stain.  Rustic is in style big time in my area.  In fact, I advertise that pine with the black ambrosia beetle holes as "black pepper pine" since the boards look like you sprinkled black pepper on the boards.  

[whittle1]

Thanks WDH do you have something in writing you share with the customers? If so would you mind sharing with me. I'm thinking something along the lines of this wood has been heat treated but re-infestation is possible if not stored properly. So many different ways to infect home thru Fire wood, Other purchased lumber even from the large operators selling beetle killed lumber. I think mostly out of Oregon but have purchased some at a local supplier here in Arkansas.  Sorry if I'm obsessing over this.

[YellowHammer]

Black Pepper Pine?!  I like it!  

I agree, selling wood with bug holes requires knowing what made the holes, and what the potential hazard will be.  It also means disclosing the same info to the customer.  

Those are ambrosia beetle and other guys that are juicy and will dry out and die, so I would not be concerned with your sterilization cycle as you have run it.  Explain to the customer the significance of the dark spots (mold, so the wood needed to be moist before it was dried).  As I tell my customers, I will not sell bug hole wood, unless the wood is supposed to have bug holes in it....such as with Black Pepper Pine, or Ambrosia Maple, which has to have bug holes to be called that.

However, I have had instances where pieces of wood were sold to furniture makers, and the second owner of the furniture thought the bugs were a problem, and for that I keep kiln records, simply recording the date and time the each load reaches sterilization, and when the sterilization cycle is complete.  Put a notebook in the kiln chamber, or use notepad on your iPhone or I use my software to record it.  Either way, it will show a pattern of 100% sterilization for all wood coming out of your kiln, and is reasonable to assume nothing was done differently for this load.

A caveat to this is powder post beetles in clean, otherwise FAS grade wood.  I don't sell that, because it's not supposed to have holes in it.  So it's important to make sure the customer understand the name, grade and style of the wood is based on the holes, like ambrosia maple, and the bugs were not the problem, they "enhanced" the wood.  

Either way, on the sales receipt have a canned statement saying "All wood has been inspected by the purchaser and all sales are final."  This is essentially the same thing you sign when UPS delivers a package to you.  "Oh, you signed the receipt saying the package wasn't damaged but now say it is?  Sorry, we can't honor your damage claim."  

If you buy the little reciept books online, just have them add that statement at the bottom of the receipt.  

BTW, I sterilized some reclaimed barn wood so hot I melted sticker stripes in the red colored lead paint from a hundred years ago.  Oops.  So the little stripes show people how hot the wood got, like a brand, and they feel better.  I tell them "If I get if hot enough to melt lead, its hot enough to kill a bug."  Of course, the lead paint is another issue....      

[barbender]

This is what is making the 1/2" wide tunnels in my white pine, I call them timber shrimp

[YellowHammer]

Those look juicy!  A little cocktail sauce and lemon juice and down the hatch!

[whittle1]

Thanks guys, I feel a lot better about it now. I will look into the receipt book as mentioned by yellowhammer. This is a great site and much appreciated that you are willing to share your wisdom with an old Greenhorn like me. Retired maintenance planner, Millwright but new to this.

[WDH]

Timber shrimp!  Timber shrimp on the Barbie  :D.  

[Nebraska]

I know there is temperature indicating tape that changes color when exposed to sterilizing temperatures in an autoclave when sterilizing medical instruments. I don't know if it comes  in different tempature grades but  if one is available it could be stuck on the end of a board in a pack as way to indicated proper external temp reached. Internal temp would have to be some sort of event logging thermometer system.
I wonder if you could drill a hole and use a turkey pop up indicator to indicate doneness indicator as a visual proof for wood sterilizing.....  I should go be productive ....

[Don P]

Thinking about that, the telltale might be there if its ever an Agatha Christie  :D. I'd bet someone could look at the various extractives present in the pitch and tell what the highest sustained temperature within the wood was. I've had pitch bleed from 150 year old air dried pine beams when I brought them outside to my sawhorses on a hot sunny day.

[barbender]

I'm trying to find a cheap way to data log temperature probe readings for firewood heat treating. The commercial units use probes that are placed in drilled holes in selected pieces of wood, and then sealed with a non hardening putty to keep air out. I don't know if that is the same method used on lumber.