Side busness

[james68]

Hello everyone, I'm thinking of buying a good manual mill for sawing two or three days a week. some of my reasons are what little I have worked around a mill I enjoyed it. And I have a 13 yr old grandson that I have raised since he was 2. And I want to teach him hard work. And all the good that comes from that. I have a great place for a mill and a 70hp 4x4 tractor with a loader. I also have around 4000 bf of good standing cherry on that land. I have a friend that logs, and has a mill and he says you can stay as busy as you want sawing. I guess im looking for advice,tell me im crazy, and helpful tips.

Thanks for any and all help.

[beenthere]

Welcome to the Forestry Forum

Sounds like a good plan. Any leads on buying the mill? As you have likely already read on this forum, they are pretty scarce and hard to come by these days. 

[Magicman]

I see two words:  "business" and "manual".  My business and sawing experience says they do not relate. 

Also, there are several active members here on the Forestry Forum that started a business with a manual sawmill and have upgraded to a hydraulic sawmill.  Another is presently in the process of upgrading.   :P

[rusticretreater]

Depends on the business.  For instance, I bought my mill to make lumber for myself and my woodworking. My business is selling crafted wood items.  The mill is part of my supply chain.

As you mentioned you have some cherry trees to log and slice, what happens next? 

[brianJ]

Hello everyone, I'm thinking of buying a good manual mill for sawing two or three days a week. some of my reasons are what little I have worked around a mill I enjoyed it. And I have a 13 yr old grandson that I have raised since he was 2. And I want to teach him hard work. And all the good that comes from that. I have a great place for a mill and a 70hp 4x4 tractor with a loader. I also have around 4000 bf of good standing cherry on that land. I have a friend that logs, and has a mill and he says you can stay as busy as you want sawing. I guess im looking for advice,tell me im crazy, and helpful tips.

Thanks for any and all help.

You got money then go buy a mill.  But dont confuse an interesting hobby for a side business or lie to yourself and wifey to justify the purchase

[YellowHammer]

So, a thousand bdft of logs weighs about 8 tons or 16,000 lbs. You have a tractor to put it on the mill but you will be pulling it off one board at a time, shoveling sawdust, moving slabs, etc. 

I've owned 3 mills, one was a manual LT15, and it was a fine mill, but before too long, I sold it and bought a basic hydraulic LT40 and I never regretted the decision. 

I'd would recommend buying a hydraulic mill.  Also, milling is hard and can be dangerous and one thing I've learned is that people either like it or they don't.  So getting help, whether from family or friends is problematic.  Just because you want to mill doesn't mean they will.  In fact I've found that nothing runs people off faster than saying "I need somebody to help with the sawmilling."

Using the mill is great.  Hand stacking lumber is not.  So get a mill that you can run alone.  

Anyway, it sounds like a good plan, but .....

[Wlmedley]

I've had a manual mill for 1 1/2 years.I've enjoyed it and don't regret buying it for a minute but like others have said it's not a big money maker if used for just producing lumber. I've sold a little and figuring my time I was working for a pretty low wage.Cutting specialty lumber or building something with it would make more sense.Also people think because the mill didn't cost a whole lot you should charge less per bf.I had one fellow that had his place logged but thought I should cut my trees,saw them into lumber and practically give it to him because I am retired 😀

[TroyC]

You will definitely teach your grandson hard work running a manual mill! 8)

I have a manual mill and it works fine for me. I'm a hobby sawyer so not looking for a job. However, I did cut a job for a friend, 100 1x4x10' boards. That was some of the hardest money I ever earned.

Listen to the pros on the forum, great advice from all of them. They know from experience and their wisdom can be priceless.

You will need a large dry place to store your lumber. Learn what to do and get all the info you can before cutting your cherry or you will have 4000 bd ft of fancy firewood. Find a market for what you can cut before cutting it. Seems customers always want what you don't have.

Good luck!

[james68]

Hey thanks for all the advice! that's what I was looking for! let me expand a bit.  I used to work in large construction bridge, factory builds, many jobs averaging 400+ yards a day in concert, I work now at a desk. But when my boys was teenagers, I decided the same thing. they needed hard manual work. So 4 miles from the house they was logging 200 acres, ( largest stand of hickory id ever seen. I got hooked up with them, and after work we averaged 140 loads of wood over a 4 year period after I got off work. We would start in the fall and cut all winter. We hand busted most of it, the last year I bought a splitter. And my boys grew up with hard hands, I grew up cutting tobacco and square baling hay all summer. So I figured that kind of stuff was good for them. Both of my sons are teachers now. So now im thinking of doing this for my grandson. If we can make 3 or 400 dollars a week to give him a check along with hard hands id be happy. But I am very open to the massive knowledge on this forum. Again thinks for all the advice. PS excuse me of butchering's the English language.   

[kelLOGg]

It's your call and discernment, James. I've had my manual mill for 20 years and it was the right one for me. I do occasional jobs but it is certainly is not a business. Good luck. 

[WV Sawmiller]

   Yes. You are crazy. There I said it. ;) Lots of crazy folks here. Good luck getting your GS interested in sawing and woodworking.

I'm with Yellowhammer and MagicMan that if for business go with the hydraulics. I think anything over 1-2 days per month justifies hydraulics.

If you were setting him up in a lawncare business would you send him out with an old fashioned manual push mower and a hoe or would you get him a riding mower and gas weedeater and such? He'd still be working hard but accomplishing more and probably making more money with the power equipment. Plus I doubt many customers would consider him very professional if he showed up with the manual mower and would likely not hire or keep him on unless he was lots cheaper than others available.

I grew up working in the family business from age 6 putting up chainlink fences and monuments. I used to joke with my dad and told him I would not have had to leave home if he'd just bought an automatic cement mixer. He laughed and said he never needed one when my brothers and I were there. He did buy power augers and such after we left but not while I was there. I don't regret the memories but did not choose that as a career.

Another point is your log supply. You mention 4K bf of cherry. Great. It would take me 1-2 days to cut and buck and drag that out with my ATV and less with the equipment you mention you have. I'd saw that in another couple of days. Then what? If that is all you have cut them and drag them to a landing and hire a portable mill for a day or two and you're done. If you are planning this for an on-going gig for 2-3 days a week where are the rest of the logs coming from? I missed something.

I'm not trying to be negative and endorse your efforts but I'd make every effort to keep it fun and interesting. Keep us posted on your decision and how it works out.

[red]

You need to read Tom's Saw, Mobile Sawmilling Service

[KenMac]

Hey there James. Welcome to the forum. I'm surprised someone hasn't already suggested that you hook up with a local sawyer and offer your help, along with the grandson, to see just what you're in for. Since I knew I'd be milling by myself, I opted for a fully hydraulic mill that allows one person to mill by himself fairly easily and safely. I'm really glad I did!!

[barbender]

I think you have a fine plan looking to start with a manual mill. You can buy one for much less than a hydraulic mill, if the milling is going great and the manual can't keep up (or you're getting wore out), you can sell it for near what you paid for it and step up to a hydraulic model. 

 If you are going to set up on site and not move (non-mobile) I'm pretty partial to the Woodmizer LT-15. If you want to saw mobile, I'd go with an LT28 at the least, for ease of setup. I'm sure other manufacturers make good models in those categories too, I'm only familiar with the Woodmizer mills though.

[Crossroads]

I ran a manual mill for 2 years doing mobile milling and it taught me some tricks that I may not have otherwise learned, but now I'm hydraulic and very happy for it. Do you like to walk? I average 6 miles a day with my hydraulic walk along, I'm confident that was doubled with the manual mill. I like your plan, the only thing I would change is the addition of hydraulics. Best wishes!

[Patrick NC]

As far as starting a business with a manual mill, it can be done. As long as you don't want days off, holidays,  free time,  etc. If your really interested in that, then go for it. I presently have a (mostly) manual mill and have managed to build a small business with it, but it's been a tough row to hoe. All my time not spent on my day job is spent try to fill orders. It can be done, but  I work 50 hours a week at my day job plus another 25 to 30 at my sawing.  Take some advice from someone who is there now, buy a hydraulic mill. Unless you are just looking lo make a buck here and there. I'm going hydraulic and I'll tell you. I should have started that way. 

[Bruno of NH]

From experience 
Buy a mill with hydraulics 
Your grandson will still learn what hard work is like and make much more money doing it.

[thecfarm]

I have a manual mill for my own use. I might have made $500 with it. I bought it for me and me only.
That's why my signature line says. If I don't do it, it don't get done. 
Lots and lots of work with a manual mill. 

[shelby78]

I'll play on the buy a manual mill side. You said saw 2-3 days a week and teach a 13 year old the ropes not full production business.

 Apples to apples hydraulic will be roughly 2-4 times the initial investment. Sure, hydraulic is faster and easier to work with but a strong back, tractor, and willingness to work goes a long way.

If you want out either will sell. I run a Lt-15 wide manual and only slab heavy. 2.5 thick hardwood 12 ft long and close to 3ft wide is the norm. Slide one side onto tractor forks then the other. Sticker as you go.

[Clark]

You mention having 4K bdft of standing cherry that you could mill. One thing that has been shown by people with a sawmill hobby and large multi-national corporations who have a sawmill or paper mill to run is that feeding the mill is a terrible way to manage your land. When the mill needs to be fed the land takes the damage, that is the way it has always worked in the past.

Now, if you said you have 4k bdft of low to moderate quality cherry and by removing it you could release higher quality white oak/white pine/sugar maple/etc then you'd be on to something. Something will replace the cherry, management is making sure you can get something desirable to do that.

Clark

[Resonator]

You can have a small business with a manual mill, I have a LT-28 and do custom sawing as well as cut my own logs for sale. As said it is a tough row to hoe, and you do get plenty of exercise. I definitely plan to upgrade to hydraulic (still hoping the wait time on new mills improves) as having a manual mill will limit what you can do as a business. It's kind of like doing lawn mowing for customers, you can start with a push mower, and it will do the job. But a rider will get more done in a day, with less physical labor. 

[WV Sawmiller]

   Great analogy! :D

[Daburner87]

There's a big ad at the top of this forum that says "Woodland Mills".  I would look at their 130max.  If you can keep it stationary you can save quite a bit, I have the mobile version which is nice to move around when you need to.  Definitely recommend this saw, and some Kasco blades.   The company can probably get you a sawmill within three months, which is far better than anyone else out there right now.  

I load logs with a hand crank winch, still trying to upgrade to an electric winch, but I don't have anything to help move the wood or logs around so lots of manual labor.  But seeing that wood when you open up a log is priceless and well worth it.  If you have a helper you'll do just fine.  I've cut some big slabs and they are incredibly difficult to move without a mechanical advantage, brute strength is not enough.  So be careful, wear your protective gear(boots, goggles, etc...) and have a plan what to do with the flitches, sawdust, scrap, as well as the lumber stack.  I have a 5x8 fire pit for the junk nearby.

Wood pallets can usually be found for free in a lot of areas, get a dozen of them, and find a good place to stack your lumber or risk rot, and worse which just equates to wasted time and money all around.  The sooner you invest in a good storage/stacking system, the sooner you can turn a profit.  I have a local sawyer that I go to, who has been doing this for many years, and he still has no system around his mill.  Lots of premium wood rotting away all over his yard because he doesn't stack anything, it's just a sloppy mess which is odd to me considering I've seen his equipment, fork lifts, hydraulic mill, plenty of space on the property etc...

[SawyerTed]

I was 55 when I started seriously shopping for a mill.  I spent a couple days with a neighbor helping on manual mill. I had decided to buy a manual mill until my wife saw a hydraulic mill video.  

She told me to get the hydraulic mill.  As usual she made a great decision!  In about 2 years the hydraulic mill paid for itself, turned a profit and cut about 50,000 board feet of lumber. 

After 4 years, I sold the mill for more than I paid for it, all maintenance and repairs.  I sawed for 4 years,  cut nearly 100,000 board feet of lumber and turned a respectable profit.  

This was sawing part time.  I do not believe my body would have held up using a manual mill to do half that.

[Ianab]

Way I see it is that you can never be sure how a new business is going to work out over time. If you buy a cheap manual mill to get you started, there are really 3 possible outcomes, none of which are disasters.  

1: You decide that milling isn't really for you, so you sell the mill and get most of your $$ back

2 :You keep the mill as a hobby / low key side business. It doesn't owe you a lot of money, so you aren't under any pressure to earn money with it, but you can. 

3: You find there is actually more demand for milling that your manual mill can handle, AND you like the work. In that case you trade up to a higher production mill. Treat the manual mill days as your "apprentice" time, and again recover most of the money you paid for it.  But at that point you have a better idea of how your business is going to operate, and can do the sums to justify the bigger mill. 

I'd suggest that every manual mill sold ends up in one of those 3 outcomes. I don't know the actual % because the guys that quit and sell up tend not to hang out on the forum any more. But it must happen. The "manual mill suits me fine", and the "I upgraded to a hydraulic mill so I could saw more" groups are both represented

[Wlmedley]

From what I have seen and experienced lumber quality is exactly the same but there is a big difference in quantity  :laugh:

[Rene S]

There's a big ad at the top of this forum that says "Woodland Mills".  I would look at their 130max.  If you can keep it stationary you can save quite a bit, I have the mobile version which is nice to move around when you need to.  Definitely recommend this saw, and some Kasco blades.   The company can probably get you a sawmill within three months, which is far better than anyone else out there right now.  

I got my WM 130 Max in about four weeks. It arrived a week ago. 

[Silhouette]

I bought an LT15 with SW10 11-12 years ago that I still own and use for making materials of my own logs. I have a tractor with a loader and a grapple, that helps quite a lot. I probably would have bought a hydraulic mill if this was my main business though.

[james68]

I want to think everyone for the different ideas and solid hard earned advice. For the guys that saw for other people. what are the common dimensions you saw. Like a 2x4 are you sawing it 1.5x.3.5? or 1 3/4x3 /3/4? If someone calls and orders 25 2x6x10 what is your actual dimensions?

[Magicman]

Well over 90% of my sawing is framing lumber.  All is sawn @ 1 9/16 thick.  I saw 4's & 6's width @ 1/8 over (1 9/16 X 3 5/8, and 1 9/16 X 5 5/8).  8's and 10's are generally sawed a quarter over and 12's are generally sawn 12.


EDIT: In over 2 million bf of framing lumber, I doubt that I have sawn over 500 bf full size.

[SawyerTed]

Not sawing now, waiting on my new milll.  

When I was running the LT35, I cut how the customer specified.  More often than not they specified full 2x for framing. 

I'll reiterate what so many others have emphasized, communication with customers to understand what they want before arriving at the sawing site is vital.  A written cut list saves time and confusion.  

[Old Greenhorn]

James, welcome to the forum. It would be nice to know about where you are, but I am guessing down south somewhere. I've been reading along since the first and just skimmed the whole thread again. You've gotten a lot of good advice and thinking points, much of which is predictable here because your question comes up often on these forums with slight variations each time. You can find a LOT to read in many other threads on this subject.
 One of the things I don't see addressed very much in the preceding replies is the young man in this picture. What is he like, what does he enjoy, and how does he feel about this adventure? I have 3 grandsons and they are all very different in the interests and attitudes. Not knowing if he will 'take' to milling is something you might want to explore before jumping in. If this is your adventure and you are inviting him along knowing he may not like it, are you prepared to go it alone? Is this something you'd want to turn over to him at some point, and is that the goal? Perhaps spending a day or two at your friends mill with your GS will tell you if it lights an interest in him? Perhaps involving him in the discussion about getting it started and how will help him feel this is a 'joint effort' in which he has a stake?
 I got my manual about 4 years ago and cut lumber for me, but sold a little too. One thing I learned is that whatever you have on the racks is not the sizes the customer wants. They want what you don't have, almost every time. So unless you can stock a lot of sizes and species OR cultivate a predictable client base, you are going to be chasing your tail. What you are proposing contains MANY support considerations such as covered drying areas, slab handling, sawdust handling, lumber moving, storage space, marketing, sales, customer research and on and on. All these things are super valuable for a person to  learn and work through at an early age. They should put him in a great position as he matures, but only IF he gets into it and enjoys it.
 You will learn on a manual mill the mental tools that will help you understand the milling of logs much better as time goes on. But as others said, you will be looking for hydraulics if you start making wood in any quantity. Last year I got talked into running my friends fully hydraulic LT50 wide and it is a night and day difference from my mill. I have been milling for him regularly a couple of days a week since last August. We only mill to order because of the issue I mentioned above. He has perhaps 10,000BF he milled in years past that buyers are not looking for and it is wasting away. Now we have a few clients that just call in what they want and we make it. Many time they are small orders taking only part of a day (I like those), but sometimes it can be thousands of BF in big long stuff taking a week or more (I have other jobs to do besides milling).
 The whole thing is a tricky balance and you will have to find the system that works for you in your area and with your clients. You will have to 'feel your way' through a lot of this and then develop the things you find work best for you.
 I wish you the best in this venture, however it goes. Let us know how it works out.

[WV Sawmiller]

  I also saw whatever the customer wants. Most all of my framing is full 2" thick. Once in a great while someone will want dimensional sizes but it is rare for me. Last week I sawed some 3/8" lath strips for a craft worker. 

  For sheeting/siding most of my customers want true 1" thick although sometimes one will want 3/4" or such. If they are planning to make furniture I saw 1-1/16" to 1-1/8" to give them some extra thickness when dry for planing to final thickness. 

   I normally saw fireplace mantels 3"-4" thick although I had one customer order 5 of them at 2" thick. There is no standard size for them. 

   I saw my stock lumber as true 1" or true 2" in most cases. Usually this is the side lumber left after special order. It does not move fast but eventually the right customer will come buy it. Yesterday I sawed a few full size 4"x4" X8' posts for a customer. 

   I tell people I am a sawmill - not a lumberyard. There is no way I can saw the assortment the big box stores maintain. I'll either custom saw what they want or they can accept what I have in stock.

   Once you develop some regular customers you can determine what they want and saw ahead for them if you want to speculate a little.

[Patrick NC]

Even though it can be done with a manual mill, I still advise saving up and at least get a lt35hd. You talk about running a manual mill 2 or 3 days a week. I think you will quickly tire of the about of work involved in a relatively small amount of lumber.  I'll give you an example.  Yesterday I sawed  18 logs that averaged 12" on the small end into 6x6s and random width 4/4 lumber. This morning I went back and sawed 900' of 2x8s from some slightly larger pine logs. The customer provided 2 helpers and a tractor, but I still had to hand every log while it was on the mill. So I worked like a rented mule for 14 hours total and made around 2600 board feet of lumber. A good hydraulic mill would have done it all yesterday and I could have spent today resting in the creek instead of sawing in the sun. Job was by the foot so pay would have been the same.  

[WV Sawmiller]

 

To add to what Patrick said, I sawed these 15 White Pine logs into 1402 bf of 4/4 lumber last Friday with my LT35 HD mill with 5.6 hours on the engine. Started about 7:30 a.m. and finished about 3:00 p.m. with a new helper. (He actually suggested we use one of those yellow thingees - LogRite Cant hooks - to move a log at one point.) It was steady work but not a man-killer. Sawing at your home is one thing but if you are sawing at a customer site he is going to want you to get in and get out as you are costing him his time and money and he wants to minimize both while still getting a high quality product. JMHO.

[Magicman]

if you are sawing at a customer site he is going to want you to get in and get out as you are costing him his time and money and he wants to minimize both while still getting a high quality product.

Thank you Howard.  I intentionally quoted the above because I have never seen nor heard that different aspect of portable sawing.  Since I am hydraulic I have never even thought about how my speed of sawing saves the customer time and money.

[Patrick NC]

That's why I started sawing by the foot instead of by the hour. Also, without power feed and a board return I would be much slower.  No way I could make it if I had to push the mill too. You can start out strong with a push mill, but after a couple of hours in the heat the power feed shows its usefulness. 

[terrifictimbersllc]

I have thought about what speed offers the customer as I got faster with sawing and especially after I moved to my present sawmill. Is it better for the customer if the job gets done in two days instead of three? Or by noon instead of all day? The upside for the customer is to get it over with quickly minimizing his and his helpers time and whatever he has to pay them. The downside is that some get worked to their limits. Some jobs where logs are iffy or it is technical sawing, or both,  then Sawyer is behind the 8 ball to deliver. And any mill downtime when paid people are watching you is very stressful.

[terrifictimbersllc]

Howard, how did you get that job done so quickly with all those logs turned sideways and looks to me like bottom half in dirt? Was there a machine there? Looks like the first two were drug out.

[WV Sawmiller]

TT,

   The customer had a tractor there and pulled and pushed them 90 degrees to the mill while I was sawing the initial cuts on on the log when the helper was not busy, so there was little to any lost time waiting on a log. They kept a log waiting and on the arms as I'd lower them. I very seldom had to shut the mill off between logs.

   My helper training and utilization have greatly improved over the last year. I show and tell the customer/helper when a board or slab hits the bedrails it is their wood and they need to move it out of my way. If its on the loading arms (Flitches) or on the cant, it is my wood. Since they were off loading on the same side as me on the far end of the mill, to prevent extra handling, instead of pushing the finished board off on the rails, I'd cock it on the cant so they'd grab and stack it on the trailer about 4' away. Usually I'd leave the last 3-4 boards to edge against and I'd give them a hold signal while still sawing and they'd grab a drink of water or finish getting the next log in position. When I stand the flitches up to edge I lower the arms and told them up front and reminded if the arms are on the ground put a log on and they did so while they were stacking the last couple of finished boards I was raising the log so there was no lost time waiting for the next log. On this job, comparing engine hours to output, we were sawing almost 275 bf/hr. 

   The customer wanted wide boards. Most were around 10" wide, no cants less than 8" several were 12" and they were 10' logs. Also I only had to change blades two times due to one dull and one broken blade. Band changes on the LT35 go real quick with the hinged covers.

[WV Sawmiller]

Patrick,

   Further to your sawing by the bf, yes it can be more fair to the customer. (Any sawing/pricing is fair as long as both parties understand and agree up front before the sawing begins and both parties do what they promised.) I like it because the customer knows exactly what he is going to pay. The downside is that if you are not providing the help is it may penalize you, the sawyer, because it costs you more to produce the lumber and you are working longer and harder for the same pay. Sawing by the hour rewards the customer for having the logs well prepped and providing good support in the form of stacking help and equipment and such so he benefits whether he is paying by the bf or by the hour because it costs him less. 

   The customer benefits from the sawyer getting in and out as quickly as possible and having faster, more productive equipment allows him to cut his costs as it does the sawyer.

[Patrick NC]

I have a $400 minimum that usually inspires the customer to have logs prepared and reliable help on site 

[WV Sawmiller]

  Now that is a good point and something to consider. I have a per job minimum of $350 which includes the first 1,000 bf or 5 hours sawing but not a daily minimum. I can't say I have needed that yet but I can see where it could happen. 

   I changed to a daily mileage rate this year. I used to charge a one time mileage fee if I had to make multiple trips to the same site but found at the end of the day with 1-2 logs the customer would say "I'm give out (People talk like that around here :D) Let's finish those other 2 logs in the morning."  Of course it did not cost them any more since I was billing by the bf but it did cost me one more round trip. Now I remind them doing so will cost them more in mileage as an incentive to suck it up and do them now. With your system it would cost them even more.

   Do you apply the minimum on a subsequent day if it is just a partial?

[Patrick NC]

The $400 minimum is for each day. Especially if it's something we could have finished the day before.  I do make exceptions in some cases. For example,  if I have to come back for a half day, I usually only charge for the extra fuel it takes to drive home and back. It gives the customer more incentive to finish those last couple of logs the day before or come up with enough logs to make the second day worthwhile.

[barbender]

"I'm give out."😂 That's kind of how I'm feeling today😁 It's amazing how many of those phrases go all the way back to different regions of England where ancestors came from.

[WV Sawmiller]

   I worked a project in Cameroon in West Africa and there were three Greens on the project. There was me (from here in the center of the universe), there was Chris from Australia and Adele from Scotland. At a family reunion we'd all have fit right in with similar features. We used to get together every Wednesday with the rest of the team at a local German's Seaman's Mission for sausages and brochettes (Shish kababobs) and such. 

   One Wednesday night all three of us were there and I told the group "All three of us had common ancestors back in the UK. One night the three brothers were being chased by an angry mob about some simple misunderstanding and ran to the docks to board the next ship leaving for anywhere. My ancestor jumped on a ship with a stalwart capable captain and immediately left for America and eventually Fla. Chris's ancestor jumped on the next ship captained by a careless drunk who had his map turned upside down so they sailed and ended up in Australia. Adele's ancestor missed the boat and had to stay and fight the crowd." :D