Dreams of a cabin

[Peter Drouin]

Well, the snow is melting you got plans yet?

[Jeff]

Yea, dreams have changed to move to Alaska walk into the wilderness 60 miles and do whatever I want.  >:(

[LeeB]

Can you walk that far?  :D

[thecfarm]

If I could make a few phone calls to help out,I would. Sorry to hear about your dream.  :(

[SwampDonkey]

Yeah, I don't know what the world is coming to. Old farm houses built of ungraded lumber and hand hewn beams on rock walled cellars stand for 150+ years. New houses built of aspenite, graded # 2 lumber and engineered trusses maybe 40 years if your lucky before major work needs done. That aspenite can't even hold a screw for a weather vane on the roof or a dish antenna on the side of the house without a light wind rocking them out. That's progress for ya.

[thecfarm]

Go get 'em Swampdonkey!! How right you are.

[Ianab]

Yeah, I don't know what the world is coming to. Old farm houses built of ungraded lumber and hand hewn beams on rock walled cellars stand for 150+ years. New houses built of aspenite, graded # 2 lumber and engineered trusses maybe 40 years if your lucky before major work needs done. That aspenite can't even hold a screw for a weather vane on the roof or a dish antenna on the side of the house without a light wind rocking them out. That's progress for ya.

40 years? Doing better then us then  :D

The building regs have been tightened more here too. There was a major flap a few years back about new houses being built, that leaked. Basically design flaws, no eaves or overhangs to shed water, flat roofs, internal guttering, monolithic cladding and untreated radiata pine. Add all that together and there where houses that didn't last 10 years.

So of course the answer was to bring in new laws about who was certified to do and inspect ANY building. A DIY builder of course doesn't have the certs, so wasn't able to build anything any more.

Crazy part is, it wasn't DIY builders that were the problem. They tend to overbuild, use traditional designs, and plan for the house to last the rest of their life. It was the professionally designed and built houses that failed, because they tried to cut costs to much, and follow some fashionable design trend.

They have amended the law now so that you can be an "Owner Builder" with a few extra inspections, and a limit on how many houses you can build. So at least they have acknowledged it was an issue and done something about it.

Jeff    - have you thought about a trailer mounted portable house? All sorts of issues go away once it's a trailer.

[red]

Plans can change but Dreams happen when we are asleep

[rjwoelk]

Just read the thread regarding your cabin Jeff.
I was in contact with the head guy of the government in Sask regarding the building code and ungraded lumber. He had been in construction previously and understood what I was doing in regards to my Log Cabin building. I mentioned that the building inspector was  adamant about graded lumber for structural wall, etc. His response was that if the lumber you are using is better than what you can buy, so  knot free straight, building to code size or greater that common sense  should apply. Being able to prove by information on grading lumber etc knot size location etc. and 4x timbers or greater did not need a stamp.again using timbers that exceed requirements.  So far we can get away from having to up grade a log wall to meet so called R18 as in other provinces.
Just a case in wis. The Log cabin need a higher energy value so the Builder had to add 2 inches  of styrofoam to  one wall, then he covered it with a 10 inch boards chinking between to make it look like logs, the cabin just passed the requirement. Then they needed to increase the window size, took out r10 log wall  for the window opening 3x4 or there abouts and now passed with flying colors. The energy engineer that did the calculations just said don't even ask how that is more efficient we have not figured out their reasoning.  From my research there is a push for graded logs for log cabins homes, but most of the push for this is coming from the big log building companies, to feather their own nest. When I bought my logs they were scaled and graded #2 so far no issues. 

[Cedar Eater]

"International Building Code 104.8

Liability. The building official, member of the board of
appeals or employee charged with the enforcement of this
code, while acting for the jurisdiction in good faith and without
malice in the discharge of the duties required by this code or
other pertinent law or ordinance, shall not thereby be rendered
liable personally and is hereby relieved from personal liability
for any damage accruing to persons or property as a result of
any act or by reason of an act or omission in the discharge of
official duties. Any suit instituted against an officer or
employee because of an act performed by that officer or
employee in the lawful discharge of duties and under the provisions
of this code shall be defended by legal representative of
the jurisdiction until the final termination of the proceedings.
The building official or any subordinate shall not be liable for
cost in any action, suit or proceeding that is instituted in pursuance
of the provisions of this code."

For some reason, they specifically excluded this section from the Michigan Building Code.

"PART 4. BUILDING CODE
R 408.30401 Applicable code.
Rule 401. Except as provided in R 408.30401a, the provisions of the
international building code, 2006 edition, including appendices F, G, and H,
except for sections 104.8,"

[SwampDonkey]

What happens if the inspector acted with malice, are they still going to stand behind a crook? They have in the past here, they get a new job title. And all big smiles in the court house.

[Don P]

We can remove one for malfeasance, misfeasance or criminal action. 

[bucksnort]

Hey Jeff, I realize it has been a couple of years since this was posted, but have you thought about running  a building design such as post and beam past your inspector? If you take away the aspect of structural design with rough sawn lumber you might be able to get a cabin up. I would see if he would allow store bought graded post and beams to be the primary structural frame, and then fill in between the posts with rough sawn lumber. buy engineered trusses, and put up rs boards on your roof. I realize there would be some costs involved, but you would still be able to utilize your materials on hand. Just some thoughts. I live in Crawford County and the inspector is rather lenient as long as the structure is sound he could care less what is not structural.

[Jeff]

Doubt it would do much good. I had decided to go traditional log instead of vertical, and the response to that was I needed certified logs.  So, having been totally disillusioned, I'll find something else to dream of.

[bucksnort]

Wow! that just doesn't make any sense.

[Don P]

I've run into everything from "gotta be graded" to "this is cool, go for it". My building official has said "We both know it's BS but it is the law", he's just doing his job. To cover everyone we came to a compromise here. I can bring a grader in or have an engineer write a letter. I chose the latter, the letter cost ~$350. Since I've been to grading school and the engineer is a friend I taught him how to grade.

I suspect that if we would all hang together we could change the model code for residential building.

[SwampDonkey]

I wonder what that means Jeff. Since they are logs, the only thing I can think of is an SFI stamp (or the like). Need management plans to build a cabin. :D

It all sounds like, "make it hard, and they won't bother me". :

[Don P]

Laws are proposed by someone, it can be a citizen or a special interest. In the case of construction laws the proposal is made to the ICC, a non profit that creates the model building codes. They then open the proposal to public comment and their membership considers the proposal and comments, votes on it and potentially adds it to the model code. Membership is open, I have made comments to their proposals in the past. The model code has no force of law, it is a proposal that is prepared on a 3 year cycle. The model code then goes to the state legislatures and again there is a time for public comment before the legislature considers, amends and votes on the new code. They may operate on a 3 year cycle or any period of their choosing. The building code is then adopted into the state code of laws, published and the building departments are charged with enforcing the laws that pertain to construction. All laws are in legal terms called codes, another term for codified (written) laws. When we become angry with the inspector or the cop for enforcing laws that we chose not to participate in the creation of, is it his fault? This is not to say that there are not people in this world who take pleasure in bullying others. As always we are dealing with human personalities. That is one reason to know and understand what the law says.

When we become aware of a law that we do not agree with and choose to not voice our concerns with our elected representatives, are we acting as responsible citizens? People are busy and engrossed in their own lives and life is plenty full for most folks just getting by. That is however why we find ourselves where we are now in so many ways.

[bucksnort]

Laws are proposed by someone, it can be a citizen or a special interest. In the case of construction laws the proposal is made to the ICC, a non profit that creates the model building codes. They then open the proposal to public comment and their membership considers the proposal and comments, votes on it and potentially adds it to the model code. Membership is open, I have made comments to their proposals in the past. The model code has no force of law, it is a proposal that is prepared on a 3 year cycle. The model code then goes to the state legislatures and again there is a time for public comment before the legislature considers, amends and votes on the new code. They may operate on a 3 year cycle or any period of their choosing. The building code is then adopted into the state code of laws, published and the building departments are charged with enforcing the laws that pertain to construction. All laws are in legal terms called codes, another term for codified (written) laws. When we become angry with the inspector or the cop for enforcing laws that we chose not to participate in the creation of, is it his fault? This is not to say that there are not people in this world who take pleasure in bullying others. As always we are dealing with human personalities. That is one reason to know and understand what the law says.

When we become aware of a law that we do not agree with and choose to not voice our concerns with our elected representatives, are we acting as responsible citizens? People are busy and engrossed in their own lives and life is plenty full for most folks just getting by. That is however why we find ourselves where we are now in so many ways.

It is my understanding though, that certified logs are not part of the Michigan code. This situation that Jeff is in falls on the Inspector and whether or not he feels comfortable with materials or methods provided and his responsibility for being liable.

[Jeff]

There were plenty of provisions in the code that would have allowed me to do what I wanted to do. Alternative materials is definitely covered. Kiln dried logs was his hangup there on proposal of conventional log building.  This guy was retied from the city, moved north, and became the inspector. The previous inspector allowed up to build my Sister's cabin with no reservations. My plan was even more substantial than that one. I'm not at an age where I want to battle this for who knows how long. Its over.  I may sell my land up there and use the money for investing in our home here.

[bucksnort]

There were plenty of provisions in the code that would have allowed me to do what I wanted to do. Alternative materials is definitely covered. Kiln dried logs was his hangup there on proposal of conventional log building.  This guy was retied from the city, moved north, and became the inspector. The previous inspector allowed up to build my Sister's cabin with no reservations. My plan was even more substantial than that one. I'm not at an age where I want to battle this for who knows how long. Its over.  I may sell my land up there and use the money for investing in our home here.

Yup, that's a shame Jeff. The inspector we have now in my county was the same way 20 years ago, He didn't fit well with the locals around here lol. He has finally succumbed. He made me do things that I thought was ridiculous, but I did them any ways. Like building with 12 inch block, spacing my rough sawn joists at 12 inches OC. Now that we have known each other over the  years. I asked him, do I still need 12 inch block and 12 in centers. He laughs now.
Your post has really concerned me though, now after several years I am going to do another log build, and it just so happens that my inspector is thinking about retiring, He told me file the permit now and ill approve it, wait, and you might not get an inspector that will. Yikes.

[Don P]

Jeff, I'm not trying to motivate you to do anything  . I am trying to explain the law for those who might be reading. For instance kiln drying is not a legal requirement, arbitrary block sizes or joist spacings are not his call to make. When an inspector asks for something that doesn't sound quite right ask for a citation. If he cannot cite the code chapter and verse that backs him up, he loses. My experience has been a whole lot of the BS begins to drop away as well.

[Magicman]

It is wrong for landowners not to be able to fulfill their dreams by using their own logs/lumber to construct their homes.  It is presently allowed in come Mississippi counties/jurisdictions but not all of them.

I am on the Docket to meet with our State Legislative Forestry Committee during the next legislative session to push for a State Law allowing non-graded framing lumber across the entire state.

[Don P]

Put the shoe on the other foot. In America the average length of home ownership is 7 years, then the home is sold to someone else. Now we have a home that is for sale built of unknown materials. The structural members of that home are of unknown strength and were sized by someone looking over an upturned thumb who declared it to be good enough. Is that fair to the next buyer? I do agree with you MM. How do we make it fair to that future buyer? In some states an affidavit follows the deed that states that the building was built with ungraded materials and outside of code. I think that is fair. There aren't too many lenders who would want to tie up their money in that. I'm just putting out things to think about.

[Jeff]

That was the very thing this inspector told me that made him unbudgable. "I'm not worried about you, I am worried about who comes after you".  My reply after hearing that more than a few times ; "I don't care. When I am gone, put me in the center of it and burn it down."