Dreams of a cabin

Don P · April 10, 2017, 07:51:10 AM

That is another way to handle it, when we file for an exemption post a demolition and cleanup bond to return the land to a clean slate for the next landowner

bucksnort · April 10, 2017, 02:04:11 PM

Quote from: Don P on April 10, 2017, 07:06:57 AM
Put the shoe on the other foot. In America the average length of home ownership is 7 years, then the home is sold to someone else. Now we have a home that is for sale built of unknown materials. The structural members of that home are of unknown strength and were sized by someone looking over an upturned thumb who declared it to be good enough. Is that fair to the next buyer? I do agree with you MM. How do we make it fair to that future buyer? In some states an affidavit follows the deed that states that the building was built with ungraded materials and outside of code. I think that is fair. There aren't too many lenders who would want to tie up their money in that. I'm just putting out things to think about.

I understand the reasoning behind codes and approved methods, but one mans opinion should not interfere with another's progress. Having certified logs was just his opinion, certainly not state code.

Magicman · April 10, 2017, 03:00:07 PM

I already saw tens of thousands bf of framing lumber each year for homes and various other buildings. My advice to the customer is always to have the architect to notate and specify on the blueprint that #2 and/or rough sawn framing lumber be used. The builder, lender, permitting/inspector, and insurance company all have to sign off on the blueprint before any construction takes place. This works well in most of the counties/cities that I saw, but there are a few that will not allow it. I often hear comments about the lumber being used is some of the best that the inspector sees.

I met with Mississippi's State Agriculture Commissioner last night who is very interested in opening up this option to forestry landowners who are at a dead end wanting to build their home out of their timber.

Sorry but my opinion is that the argument about the potential "next home owner" is a "kneejerk/sky is falling" reaction. Just because another person now owns the home does not mean that all of a sudden the home is substandard and is gonna fall down. The permitting building inspector makes inspections at various stages of construction and verifies that the construction is meeting the building code. If it meets the building code then it is not substandard.

Mooseherder · April 10, 2017, 04:10:30 PM

Another Government solution looking for a problem because we are from the government and we are here to help. It would be different If the Inspector would come by to Inspect, give advise to the Builder in a helpful manner instead of the GOTYA imposition. A person should be able to build their own home without government getting in the way. Homes also go thru an Inspection during the next Sale. That inspection is paid for by the Purchaser. It could be noted that this home was built using non-conventional materials or methods but that may also include being over-built beyond required code. I did owner builder on our Pool project 20 years ago. Dealing with the Process was not a warm fuzzy feeling.
When I went for a Gray/Grey water permit for the Cabin the Crew there was just as arrogant. When we had 4 Hurricanes in 2004 many in South Florida had roof damage. There wasn't enough materials to be had to fix them all. Even if you found materials, good luck finding a crew to work on it. During that time we were fending for ourselves. The Inspection process was waived because they couldn't keep up I suppose. We were told to send money and take pictures of our work. God help me if I had to produce those pictures now. My roof is still good so I guess we did something right. If we were selling and an Inspector found something wrong would it hurt the sale of my house that wouldn't be here had I not taken action? I'm not saying the Inspection process is completely unnecessary, I think the process should be reviewed to sway in the benefit of the owner builder. If the Inspector isn't qualified to see a log is stronger than a 2x6 then they shouldn't be in that position. They could make note of it and move on especially for a lil stinkin' cabin. ;)

flyingparks · April 10, 2017, 07:23:53 PM

Enjoying the input on this thread. I still don't understand why having an engineer draw it up and stamp it won't suffice. I live in a very strict county and the plans examiners and inspectors are very aware that they themselves aren't engineers.

Ljohnsaw · April 10, 2017, 08:03:43 PM

Quote from: flyingparks on April 10, 2017, 07:23:53 PM
Enjoying the input on this thread. I still don't understand why having an engineer draw it up and stamp it won't suffice. I live in a very strict county and the plans examiners and inspectors are very aware that they themselves aren't engineers.

In my case, the engineer included a note that I would be using fresh sawn wood:

* The timbers are fresh-sawn Ponderosa Pine, unless noted otherwise. Their moisture content, at fabrication, is approximately 30%.
* The timber sizes shown are nominal. The timber sizes are subject to slight revision; but only under the direct supervision of the engineer-of-record for the frame.
* The timber connections are based on traditional methods - using mortises, tenons, splines, pegs and keys. The connections are designed and detailed under the direct supervision of the engineer-of-record.

The county signed off. When the inspector came to do a pre-pour inspection, I had the ledger boards attached to the inside of my blocks to keep the top two courses in place for the pour. The plans actually specified 2x8 (rough) cedar but I made them 3x10 so I could lock the top two courses together with 4.5" drywall screws. He looked at them and asked why I used heavy cedar and not green stick (treated). I just said "that is what the plans specify" and he never questioned it further!

flyingparks · April 10, 2017, 08:08:11 PM

4.5" drywall screws? 8)

Ljohnsaw · April 10, 2017, 08:17:08 PM

Yep - for the Fastwall blocks, when you have to shorten the length on the final block in a course, you slice the end off, remove the proper amount from the remaining block, add the end back and screw it back in place.

flyingparks · April 10, 2017, 08:18:48 PM

Aha! Very cool.

Don P · April 10, 2017, 08:33:49 PM

I do agree with the opinions unfortunately I also know the laws so here is the cite.
check R502.1.1 Sawn Lumber
This is the model code, each state has the option of adopting or modifying. This is the year model MI is working from.
https://codes.iccsafe.org/public/document/code/553/9813211
If you don't want to read it, a grade stamp is required from an accredited grading agency.

For logs the model code references the log home standard. Which also contains the same language, just insert log instead of sawn lumber.

Many folks get confused between law and enforcement. Some inspectors do not enforce the law. I'm hoping the town cop doesn't enforce the law regarding car inspection tomorrow morning if he sees me taking the car in to the shop. We both know the law and I'm not going to blame him if he gives me a ticket... and I think that law is ALL about the money. My opinion is irrelevant.

What MM is doing is the right thing to do when we don't agree with a law. It has been successfully done in a number of states, have the state modify the residential building code when they adopt it into their state code of laws to allow self graded lumber.

Just a detail there, I need a grade AND a species for that to make sense. Generally a set of plans will say something like #2 SPF or better (don't reference SYP unless you want to talk about this a whole lot more). Typically the callout on the plans is and has been #2 SPF or better anyway. The reason for referencing species and grade is that grading is done the same irrespective of species but each species has different design values (strengths for lack of a better term). Simply put, a stick of #2 white oak is stronger than a stick of #2 white pine. If I just call for #2 and I'm thinking white oak and you are thinking white pine, we have a problem.

Jeff · April 10, 2017, 08:36:00 PM

Some of us don't have the money to pay for engineered drawings. I wanted to build a cabin from materials I could source from my own property. This entire plan hinged on being able to afford to do it.

flyingparks · April 10, 2017, 09:19:01 PM

Quote from: Jeff on April 10, 2017, 08:36:00 PM
Some of us don't have the money to pay for engineered drawings. I wanted to build a cabin from materials I could source from my own property. This entire plan hinged on being able to afford to do it.

Understood Jeff. Whats the big picture? How much are you willing to spend on non-building costs vs. how much your non-building costs will be? It appears you don't want to spend any money on non-building costs. There are places out there where you can do it that way. In fact, there are places everywhere you can do this. But would you want to live there? No. You want to live where you already own the lot and who can blame you. It's beautiful.

About 10% of my total costs are going to engineers, energy modelers, and the good old county. Every time I write a check I think about how much work I have done to come up with that money...I think about this for 10-20 minutes before I sign that check. Then I sign it, because in the end I know it will be worth it.

It can get incredibly frustrating out there in the building your own house world. A lot of requirements that were completely unheard of a short time ago.

In my opinion, engineers are totally worth the small investment. Mine has caught a few things that I didn't think of when I sent him my drawings. Those things would have been a pain down the road. I'm in no position to tell people how to spend their money (I just drilled a well to 1151', a new FF record! 8)).

Long story long, if you don't see it happening then cut ties. I can assure you the building department won't get any easier. I know that in strict counties, property values are higher. Most likely because people can't just put up some heinous, unsafe building a foot from your property. If that type of thing isn't a concern to you I would think about exploring some other areas not too far away where the property owner has a lot more rights. We have plenty of those areas around here.

It bums me out knowing how frustrated you are with this project. I wish you nothing but the best.

ScottCC · April 10, 2017, 09:41:00 PM

Sir, I wish I had caught you before you gave up on your log home. Here is what I did as a person poor people felt bad for for not having squat. I told the inspector what ever they wanted to hear, got my permit. Put in my foundation and got my inspection. Ordered my power on a pole and got it inspected. Then did what I wanted and never called anyone again. No homeowners insurance and did not care. Lived for years and did not care. They found a way to tax me and I paid in full on time, and did not care. Even sold it as is way below market and did not care. Lived happily ever after. Even went to county and asked about a CO. Costs double and they just write can not see whatever when they can't see it. Did not bother and did not care. It was what I had to do to have a place to live, period. It's your dream, period. And that's the cheapest way you can go. Besides, no one messes with a woodsy guy who has a beard.

Don P · April 11, 2017, 06:43:10 AM

There are 2 empty lots within about 5 miles of here. One got up to the second floor walls the other to the rafters before coming back down. One of the families I saw on the internet receiving this same kind of advice. I warned him twice to go in and have a talk but folks on the net were telling him what he wanted to hear. All I can say is don't build more than you can afford to lose if you go that route.

Jeff · April 11, 2017, 07:09:25 AM

A person would be a fool to take such advice.

LeeB · April 11, 2017, 07:16:07 AM

And not care. :D

Jeff · April 11, 2017, 07:38:19 AM

Anyone that entertains the thought of trying to skip over the codes should watch the true story called "still mine"
https://youtu.be/LdIYsoeEgfk

Don P · April 11, 2017, 09:45:35 AM

While I respect civil disobedience it can have a high price. Some of you might remember me working on this alone some years ago. It looks like the timing is better now. TN recently passed a native lumber law, it sounds like a couple of our members are actively pursuing something similar in their states.

I do not believe anyone is born knowing how to grade lumber or with an understanding of structural mechanics. I've seen some pretty miserable results of that kind of arrogance, in my own work as well. The quickest way to kill something like this is to have failures. The old "I've been doing it this way for X years" is usually what a lawyer calls a class action. Think about doing this along with some form of training, provided by the land grant colleges, it wouldn't hurt if the engineering students were there too although I've spoken with ours about that and they don't want to train their students, go figure... one step at a time. Anyway, clear cool heads and keep thinking

.

bucksnort · April 11, 2017, 10:33:07 AM

I am just glad I have the inspector that I have. We have lengthy conversations almost daily about all this. One thing he told me is Authoriy has jurisdiction (AHJ) supersedes the codes, and he has no problem approving my log home.

Weekend_Sawyer · April 11, 2017, 10:49:02 AM

In West Virginia, Morgan County where I am building my retirement home they inspect the septic installation and the electric company inspects the electrical connection to the house. Beyond that the licensed contractor is responsible for the stability of the structure. Strange but true.

Jon

SwampDonkey · April 11, 2017, 10:53:07 AM

Didn't realize this story, "Still Mine", was here in New Brunswick.

Maclean's Magazine

"The film is based on the true story of Craig Morrison, who became locked in an epic feud as provincial bureaucrats tried to stop him from building a house on a parcel of his own land in St. Martins, overlooking the Bay of Fundy. Morrison was a master carpenter and sawmill operator, but because his hand-milled lumber was unstamped and his materials didn't conform to the building code, the province tried to block construction, then threatened to bulldoze the house. After six court appearances and a front-page story in the St. John Telegraph Journal, Morrison eventually won his battle three years ago at age 91"

The old fella, "Craig Morrison", passed away 4 years ago.

Jeff · April 11, 2017, 11:10:06 AM

That movie was instrumental in my not trying to "Put up the good fight" If I was in my 30's, sure, bring it on, however I'm not. I don't want to spend a good share of what might end up being the last part of my life fighting something. Think of that what you may, but I'd rather find happiness doing something else than choosing periods of probable anger and disappointment. I'm content with my decisions. Anybody want to buy a great chunk of U.P. land? All it takes is money to make it into your dream instead of mine.

SwampDonkey · April 11, 2017, 11:14:15 AM

I agree with you there. There is bliss elsewhere, not fighting government.

Raider Bill · April 11, 2017, 11:31:56 AM

Quote from: Weekend_Sawyer on April 11, 2017, 10:49:02 AM
In West Virginia, Morgan County where I am building my retirement home they inspect the septic installation and the electric company inspects the electrical connection to the house. Beyond that the licensed contractor is responsible for the stability of the structure. Strange but true.

Jon

That's how it was where I built my Tenn house except I had to have my final electrical checked too. All he did was walk around the living spaces, made sure I had smoke detectors, GFI and AFI breakers. Said I did a nice job for not being a contractor and was amazed I had built a house with Styrofoam which he had never seen before. He signed the box and left.

Next power bill had the word "temp" taken off under description.

Magicman · April 11, 2017, 02:37:06 PM

Quote from: Jeff on April 11, 2017, 11:10:06 AMI don't want to spend a good share of what might end up being the last part of my life fighting something. Think of that what you may, but I'd rather find happiness doing something else than choosing periods of probable anger and disappointment. I'm content with my decisions.

Jeff, that is my exact attitude regarding the rest of my allotted time here on this earth. If I can make it better for my family, then OK, but my days in the trenches are behind me.