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Started by The Woodcooker, January 15, 2008, 06:39:13 PM

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Ron Wenrich

I've seen lots of guys who decided they were going to be foresters.  They got the sheepskin, so all they needed was experience.  So, they go out and learn by doing.

The problem lies in not doing things the right way.  If you have 20 years of experience, and none of it is any good, its just wasted time. 

A number of years ago, the estimated cost for training a sawyer was right around $100,000.  That figures in salary, lost production, damages, and lost money due to miscuts.  I'm sure that number is a lot higher.

If I were to train a sawyer, the first thing he would do is stack lumber.  That is so he knows what its like for his help to keep caught up.  The next would be to stack lumber with a grader, so he knows his grade.  I would then start to let him working around the saw and learn mill maintanence.  He would stand and watch as I explained what I was doing and what to watch out for.  Then, I would gradually allow him to saw some low grade logs under supervision.  Eventually, they would fly solo.

I'm not saying it would take years to accomplish it.  But, to think a guy can hop up on any saw and start sawing good lumber is unrealistic.  The new sawyer will quickly get frustrated as problems crop up.  They will start to miss some pretty basic things, and then you have the accident. 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

MartyParsons

safety, maintenance.
How to get to www.forestryforum.com  ;D
"A pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees opportunity in every difficulty." -Winston Churchill

shinnlinger

Ok,

So how do I take this course?  I just went for it and milled all the beams for my house and feel like I have the mechanics down, but I was simply throwing decent logs on the rails and cutting what I needed.  Worked well and I now also have a nice pile of boards for future projects.  

I agree that there is no substirute for making sawdust, but now I wonder how to cut efficiently.  A log 20" round makes good 2x6's 18' 2x4's etc.  I here good sawyers can see the boards in a standing tree, but I wonder if that can be taught.
Shinnlinger
Woodshop teacher, pasture raised chicken farmer
34 horse kubota L-2850, Turner Band Mill, '84 F-600,
living in self-built/milled timberframe home

Dan_Shade

sawing isn't rocket science, but some educations lessens the incline of the learning curve...

a 9" log will make three 2x6's, but 9" logs are hard to saw.  Knot placement is important for dimensional lumber, as it is for grade lumber, but in grade, you want the knots on the edge, with dimensional lumber, you want the knots in the center of the board.  you can often see a knot through the bark.
Woodmizer LT40HDG25 / Stihl 066 alaskan
lots of dull bands and chains

There's a fine line between turning firewood into beautiful things and beautiful things into firewood.

shinnlinger

Hey Dan et all,

Is there a good search I can type in that goes through these kind of pointers? It seems like I type in the wrong words or get things that are not what I am looking for. Safety, Setting up the mill for one/two/three man operartion, necesary and optional equipment, How to rotate the log to minimize defects,  Is it worth it to jack up one end of a tapered log (especially with a manual mill), bow to increase efficiency,   At what point is a log too small to deal with( a constant argument w/the guy I own the mill with), how to deal with kinks, sawing to grade, etc

I sort of figured this stuff out, and am pleased with what I acomplished, but I am also sure there are more efficient methods for doing it.
Shinnlinger
Woodshop teacher, pasture raised chicken farmer
34 horse kubota L-2850, Turner Band Mill, '84 F-600,
living in self-built/milled timberframe home

Justin L

I'm all for figuring new & better ways to do things, but I know I've spent years trying to figure out things that were perfected twenty years ago by someone else. Short courses are great for getting a head start- like the 3 day kiln drying class I took a year ago. If I get a sawmill I'll probably take a short course on it too. Experience is the best teacher, but it doesn't have to be your own :) It's like a drivers ed class, you get all the basics, but it still takes years too REALLY know what your doing.
I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant! :)

thecfarm

The search is a hard one to define.I've looked for certains treads before too.Just have to change the words.Someone had a real nice thread going about setting up a sawmill to get the most from it with rollers and placement of certains things.Maybe someone can remember this.About the taper on a manual mill.Depends how much the lumber you have gained by jacking it up by hand.Are you waiting to have it jacked up?Is the saw waiting for this to happen?Remember if you're not sawing,you're not making money.White pine may not be worth it,but walnut would be if it was good looking lumber.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

rebocardo

Safety and where the off switch is.

thecfarm

shinnlinger,try green chains in your search.It came up with only one page,but a couple posts looked like what you are looking for to set up a sawmill.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Ron Wenrich

Log size is usually dependent on the operation.  There is a bell shaped curve for every milling operation.  It varies for species, grade and length.  Some logs are too small to run at a profit, and some are too large.  Knowing which ones to weed out is very important to stay profitable. 

Production costs have a lot to do with how much you can put through your mill in a given amount of time.  I like to come up with a number that gives your operating costs by the minute.  I know its a pain to figure up, but without it, you're running blind.

Then, you can tell how much it costs to saw a log.  Profit = lumber value - log costs - production costs.  Most guys don't have any control over lumber or log values.  The free market takes care of that.  Production costs is where you have the most control. 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Haytrader

shinnlinger,

In answer to your question about the taper of a log.

I saw mostly Eastern red cedar which has a lot of taper. I also have a manual mill.
I keep a 1x4 under my mill at each end of a log. I lay them across the bed of the saw and measure the center of the pith on the big end. Say it is 9". I then measure on the small end. It may be 6" so I need 3" of blocking to get the ends even. I keep several pieces handy for this. I have a 3x3x8 close by and use it as a lever to lift the small end if we can't or don't want to by hand. You have to repeat this after the first turn.
Hope this helps.
Haytrader

Dan_Shade

take a look through the Knowledge base
also read all the posts in the sawmills and milling board, there is a LOT of good stuff on this board.
Woodmizer LT40HDG25 / Stihl 066 alaskan
lots of dull bands and chains

There's a fine line between turning firewood into beautiful things and beautiful things into firewood.

Lud

Robert Long:  I hired hundreds of tradesmen in my lifetime.   They all had apprentice certificates but I only hired one out of twenty.  We sifted thru thousands to get hundreds of right people with right attitudes.  It's just experience with the apprenticeship process.......not a bad experience.

Formalized education and certificates are fine.  My point was that an interest in learning better ways to do things and doing them incrementally expands someone's knowledge and prepares them for the changing environment we work and live in.  That a right attitude is more important than a certificate in the long run.

There's no magic answer which the start of the thread appeared to be asking for.  i did a little Devil's Advocate on that speculation and personally think the Forum provides a great resource for most of our needs.

Kudos to Dan Shade for where he's now pushing this pile.  I'm just going to lean my shovel against the wall. and quit on the topic.
Simplicity mill, Ford 1957 Golden Jubilee 841 Powermaster, 40x60 bankbarn, left-handed

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