So I've been cutting my stickers 1"x1" out of small logs and scrap on the mill. Not nearly as uniform as you would get using, for instance, a table saw.
I'm curious what is the preferred method among my fellow sawyers.
Sometimes I'm able to dry them first sometimes not it just depends on how lazy I'm being, sticker stain hasn't been a huge problem but I'm still fairly new and 80% of what I've cut is still stacked. The worst offenders having been stacked with too small of stickers, or stickers that had paint or something else on them (psa: don't use old trim as stickers lol). My last attempt at cutting stickers ended badly as somehow by blade alignment got screwed up and most of the cuts ended up different thicknesses, and it just seems to be more and more of a pain every time I do it.
Well this topic will generate some good responses.
I use 1x1 stickers cut on the mill for framing lumber and generally have a supply of dry ones. In a pinch I'll use green ones. For hardwood and high grade lumber I use kd stickers that have been planed. There are some valid reasons to use something like 1x1.25, etc. but personal preference comes into play on that question.
If you're not able to cut accurate and consistent stickers on the mill, I think that should be checked out. If you can saw accurate lumber, you should be able to saw accurate stickers. My mill is all manual and I use the index holes on the lifting mechanism to to get consistent results. For me this works better than the scale. Just depends on your type of mill and how well you can use the scale or if you have some sort of programmable control.
What do think is causing the variation in your mill cut stickers?
Quote from: btulloh on July 20, 2021, 09:21:32 AM
For hardwood and high grade lumber I use kd stickers that have been planed.
Is this just to make sure they are exact dimensions or for another reason?
I have plans to cut all my KD stickers on the table saw so I can get a head start.
I cut stickers from dry boards and fresh cut ones. I prefer to saw them from air dried boards even if the boards have only air dried a month or so.
The reason that I use air dried boards is that I plane them before sawing out the stickers on the sawmill. Planing both faces of the boards makes all the sticker boards exactly the same thickness. So when the stickers are sawn out two opposite faces are planed and two are not. Makes it easy to put the planed face down so each sticker is exactly the same thickness.
Therefore if the rough face sawn on the mill is not exactly the same thickness for all the sawn stickers, it does not matter because the planed face serves as the reference face when placing the sticker on the stack.
My mill cut stickers are accurate enough, but precise is better and kd is important for controlling sticker stain. There is a case for running a groove top and bottom to create an H pattern. Commercial stickers are made like that. I don't go to that length, but if I was sawing real high-grade expensive stuff I would.
A stack of lumber will take on any shape caused by uneven layers or stickers, or any bow caused by a base that's not flat. Sawing lumber is a fair amount of work, but the final results are dictated by how you handle it after sawing. I think everyone learns real quick when they're starting out that sawing is the easy part.
I have a handful of planed stickers that came from scrap in my shop but the majority are rough sawn on all sides. I usually saw them out of short logs and then stack and sticker them to air dry. Most of my stickers are cottonwood and ash and they don't seem to dry straight if not stacked for even airflow.
My mill is all manual and I haven't really had any trouble with consistent sizing. I use the 1" scale and drop down 1" for sticker thickness and 1 1/4" for width. This leaves me with a 7/8"x1 1/8" stickers. This way I can saw quick and a little sloppy when sawing out the 1 1/8" width and then slow down and be more exact for the 7/8" thickness. There will be a few that are too thick or too thin but I'm always surprised how consistent they are.
I'm just sawing for myself and pretty low volume compared to many others here. If I was doing more, and attempting to make money from it, I might be more persnickety about my stickers.
Alan
I think most of my variation in dimension comes from the very bottom cut, because its hard to clamp a bunch of small 1" boards vertically the bottoms up against the deck will not all be touching, or will move a little during the final pass, I've started just throwing those in the scrap pile and just keeping good ones. Also I usually wait to cut stickers until its just about time to change blades so I'll get some small waves, max 1/8" otherwise they get chunked. I like the idea of planing some 1" boards before cutting into stickers, it just takes a bit more pre-planning than I've been doing, but I do have some have some small branchy pecan logs that should be perfect for that. Right now most of my milled wood is stacked on blocks outside so not exactly perfectly flat, but the intended use is for a swingset so not exactly fine woodworking quality required. In the future I will stack in a shipping container kiln so I can get flatter and I think sticker uniformity will be more important. Not to change the subject but another thing I've noticed is that it seems I can't add enough weight to stop cupping on 8/4 red oak but maybe that's just the nature of red oak.
Red oak, and most hardwoods, are going to cup. That's one reason that the hardwood scale is thicker than the softwood scale. It's going to need some extra thickness to be able to plane to finished thickness.
There are ways to minimize the cupping and other drying defects. Generally the drying rate needs to be slowed down by limiting air flow and heat. It's easy to dry to fast in the summer if the stack is exposed to wind and sun that would be fine for something like pine. I still have trouble slowing oak down enough in the summer. Cup can be planed out, but surface checks caused by drying too fast last forever. I've done thar way too many times and turned furniture grade oak into junk.
Grain orientation and balance can reduce cup to the minimum. Sapwood on one face is deadly. A little sap wood on each edge can be ok, but it should be minimal and balanced. Oak, and red oak especially take some care to get right. It's important to pay attention to the maximum drying rate for any species. I've had a lot of experience drying oak too fast but not much experience doing it right in the summer. Your going have some cup with the red oak so you just need allow for enough thickness to plane it to target dimensions.
A timely video for this topic.
How To Dry Oak Lumber - YouTube (https://youtu.be/1KBuP_8NKFY)
Scott Wadsworth would fit right in on FF.
I've considered getting a banding tool, its even possible I already own one but its in the barn somewhere and hasn't been seen in years. I don't have a fork lift (yet) but I reckon it would still be useful even to just hold pressure, I've used ratchet straps before but UV got to them pretty quick. Do you still need a lot of weight on top of bands or just slightly less? Not sure if the bands just hold everything together or do keep some pressure to hold flat shape.
Quote from: High_Water on July 20, 2021, 12:36:19 PM
I've considered getting a banding tool, its even possible I already own one but its in the barn somewhere and hasn't been seen in years. I don't have a fork lift (yet) but I reckon it would still be useful even to just hold pressure, I've used ratchet straps before but UV got to them pretty quick. Do you still need a lot of weight on top of bands or just slightly less? Not sure if the bands just hold everything together or do keep some pressure to hold flat shape.
I'm probably going to mimic @doc henderson (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=41041) setup when the time comes. I've actually had various banding tools in my Amazon cart several times and haven't pulled the trigger.
You'll still need the weight because the bands loosen up as the wood looses moisture and shrinks. IIRC, some banding can be retighten
Found his post where he talks about banding
https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=105726.0
Banding and ratchet straps would help hold a pack tightly together but I don't see how it can take the place of weight. All the pressure will be at the corners rather than on the wide flat top of the stack.
Alan
If you are banding or strapping you need to do it evenly across the bundle and only put them on the areas supported by stickers.
Banding is good for keeping stacks of wood together while transporting. As the wood dries, the bands get loose quite quickly, so we use Kubinec type banding in the logyard. It's very easy to tighten up. Once a few stacks of wood are spilled off a forklift, which we consider a rite of passage for a new employee, we don't have to keep reminding them to band the packs.
I have tried all kinds of stickers, including making my own. As others have said, good stickers make good wood. Even being a little off on sticker height will put a kink in that board, and the ones above it, for a few layers. You can't unkink a board without planing it into toothpicks. Kinking or bowing wood due to poor sticker manufacture, design, or placement is self imposed punishment. Here is a video of me making profiled "H" style stickers using a power feed and dado head on my old table saw. We made thousands and thousands of them. This was years ago, and we have progressed since then.
How to Make Profiled Lumber Dryings Sticks (Stickers) - YouTube (https://youtu.be/jcrfH66gBI4)
I make sticks on the shaper sometimes similar to what YH showed.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10125/2006_04120030.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1192058162)
With the shaper I made a cutter that cuts the groove and sizes at the same time. 80 feet per minute and it goes fast.
This style of stick is essential to get white woods dry free of stick stain. If the wood is dark like oak or walnut I'll just use a regular stick. Still get stick stain but it planes out.
I re-examine my process at times. My good friend that runs a mill a mill full time cuts all his sticks on the mill and I have sawed lots of sticks for him when he gets behind. His end product is every bit as good as what I do. With 4/4 his boards clean at 3/4" but my boards clean at 7/8". He asks why.......
Quote from: Larry on July 20, 2021, 11:11:16 PMWith 4/4 his boards clean at 3/4" but my boards clean at 7/8". He asks why.......
You and your friend need to document the heck out of drying loads of the same wood and size, then compare notes. There has to be some variance in the drying either by one of you or the wood. Also, your chambers or drying sheds may be just a little different from each others. This is usually airflow.
Good looking stickers by the way, Larry. I bet Yellowhammer is jealous!! ;D
Yes, those are some high grade stickers. smiley_thumbsup
Larry could open a side business and sell those. If people bought them, they would save themselves a lot of misery. ::) Quality stickers make quality boards.
I betcha YH makes em out of curly maple. He's just not showing us his good ones!
Quote from: Larry on July 20, 2021, 11:11:16 PM
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10125/2006_04120030.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1192058162)
Are those walnut stickers? Would walnut stain light colored wood?
I just sorted off a bunch of walnut lumber from a kiln load that wasn't good enough to plane and sell.
The medullary rays on the end grain indicate oak.
so banding can work good, but on a wide pallet it will tend to pull in a circle. it will slide the boards together and put more pressure on the corners rather than across the top. that is why I use band boards (2x material with a grove for banding, I get at Lowes) across the top and bottom to get the bands away from the sides and mostly pull top to bottom. On single log stacks like I showed in my thread, the banding is fine. The grooving in the stickers is cool. I recall when I thought about making similar ones, @GeneWengert-WoodDoc (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=20498) told me there are patents, so you have to be careful, if you wanted to market them. I think @customsawyer (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=1861) had some that had half round groves going diagonal across the stickers. he also just looped the banding around the stack loosely and used the weight of other pallets to flatten the boards.
I checked on it years ago, the H stickers are considered prior art and not unique technology so are not patented. The angled fluted stickers like I and Jake use are patented, but it will be running out soon, or already has. I have switched over to the angled and fluted stickers exclusively, Breeze Dry style, but they are made by a couple different manufacturers, so I'm not sure how that can be, considering the patent. I don't make them, it takes a machine I don't have.
Either way, the angled fluted stickers almost totally eliminate sticker stain, but cost about $1 each. I have many thousands of dollars invested in them, but they work.
The easiest way to put weight on a pack is stacking other packs on top during air drying.
Yes, oak sticks. Those were the first I made and switched to using cottonwood.
The very worse stain is what I call "shadow" stain. The white maple board looks perfect until its in a project, sanded to 320 grit, and with finish. The shadow may only show under certain angles or lighting conditions. May not even be noticed by most people, but the maker (me) knows..... At that point if a stick cost $5 it would have been worth it.
I'm such an expert at ruining boards I figured out how to get reverse sticker stain. Use super dry sticks fresh out of the kiln on fresh maple.
Quote from: Larry on July 21, 2021, 05:17:40 PM
I betcha YH makes em out of curly maple. He's just not showing us his good ones!
Funny that you should mention curly maple because on wednesday 7/21/21 I Q'sawed 2 curly maple logs for a customer for guitar necks. Took a while but he seemed to be happy.
GAB
My stickers are made out of teakwood. :D ;)
Shocker....... ;)
pretty sure your firewood is also made of teak :)
I have found making stickers out of scraps isn't worth it. I usually sand up 5 or so perfect boards(no knots, no bark, straight grain) on the mill and cut them into 1 inch strips, then cut their length to my stack width.
It feels like a waste of good boards but I reuse them many times over and having stickers that don't fall apart under their own weight and that can be kept tidy when not in use and being able to reuse them many times over make it lest wasteful in the long run.
I have no use for planed stickers. The rougher the better if you can't have profiled .
I went around and got dunnage boards from a couple of lumber yards ,freebies .Set up my table saw and cut them down to 3/4" stuff ,all 4 feet long .I had a couple of paper barrels full at one time. They are pine of course but they must have worked because the air dried lumber seems to be okay .There isn't any sticker stain on the oak, ash ,walnut or black cherry lumber I've seen .
Here's what I use. I've got a few bins of them, including the ones being used. These are about $1 each and work better than anything I've used, including the composite ones.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_2290.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1627213713)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_2301.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1627213735)
I've never used them but have heard of using 3/4" PVC pipes for stickers .I did however once cut rollers from 2" PVC pipe and used them to roll an 1800 pound Bridgeport model M milling machine about 50 feet to put it in place .This stuff is stronger than you might think .
Quote from: Al_Smith on July 25, 2021, 07:11:07 AM
I went around and got dunnage boards from a couple of lumber yards ,freebies .Set up my table saw and cut them down to 3/4" stuff ,all 4 feet long .I had a couple of paper barrels full at one time. They are pine of course but they must have worked because the air dried lumber seems to be okay .There isn't any sticker stain on the oak, ash ,walnut or black cherry lumber I've seen .
Those woods don't count. It's sugar maple, elm. clear white pine, tulip and other 'white' woods that the stickers can ruin.
Y.H., send me up a t/l of those twisted sticks :D. You sure are professional and no kidding here. I have herd that those sticks will impress w.pine but they have to be the way for most any other wood.
Quote from: moodnacreek on July 25, 2021, 10:17:47 AMY.H., send me up a t/l of those twisted sticks :D. . . .
@Yellowhammer are those twisted stickers the same that @customsawyer (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=1861) had a one of the projects? If I remember right, Jake had a bunch of sticker bundles from the Beasley mill - they will only allow so many cycles through the kiln with their stickers.
I helped you load a whack of them into your truck and that was the first and only time I'd seen that style.
The stickers I got from Beasley's were broken and no longer fit there stacking machine. They run 6 ft. packs and the machine has small C channel for the sticks to slide in. So if they break on the ends they no longer reach to the C. Well this makes them great for my pallets at 4 ft.
Quote from: Al_Smith on July 25, 2021, 07:59:22 AM
I've never used them but have heard of using 3/4" PVC pipes for stickers .
Better band those packs tight before you try to move them. :)
Alan
These are similar to the ones from Customsawyer, but we use so may now, that we just order these directly from the manufacturer. We buy them by the "1,000 pc cube" and have replaced all of our conventional and H style stickers with them. These allow me to dry sticker stain prone wood, such as poplar, even during the summer months.
On some softwood and hardwoods, as moodnacreek (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=34989) says, if the packs are stacked too high, the limited contact area will crush the surface fibers on the face of the boards, and will be visible. However, as long as the stacks are not more than 10 feet high, (in our experience) they won't crush the surface fibers and isn't a problem. However, with big commercial mills, and when stacking sky high, it can be significant. The nice thing is that fibers crushing by "sky high stacking" can be mitigated by simply adding extra stickers per row, which brings down the individual contact loads, and eliminates fiber crushing.
We dry very soft woods using these, such as basswood and pine, and as long as the stack height is watched, no problems at all.
The absence of any sticker stain is really a nice stress reliever for me, especially in the summer. Many mills in this area won't even saw and dry maple, poplar, basswood and other white woods because of the chances of sticker stain in the hot summer. So this gives us an edge, and we don't have to be so "seasonal" when we are sawing white woods.
Quote from: moodnacreek on July 25, 2021, 10:11:24 AM
Quote from: Al_Smith on July 25, 2021, 07:11:07 AM
I went around and got dunnage boards from a couple of lumber yards ,freebies .Set up my table saw and cut them down to 3/4" stuff ,all 4 feet long .I had a couple of paper barrels full at one time. They are pine of course but they must have worked because the air dried lumber seems to be okay .There isn't any sticker stain on the oak, ash ,walnut or black cherry lumber I've seen .
Those woods don't count. It's sugar maple, elm. clear white pine, tulip and other 'white' woods that the stickers can ruin.
Now a question because I really don't know as I have none of those "white woods " .Generally speaking the rough lumber would be 1" thick and then planed down to say 3/4".Does the planning remove the sticker stain ?
Sawing and drying white woods in hot weather must be strictly controlled from the stump to stored dry lumber. I am a rather rough mill with no kiln and mostly outdoor storage. Low grade softwood for 1x12 rough, a.d. and oak trailer plank in any condition is my main thing. Most lumber sold here is sold off sticks. However as the area changes from country to city the loggers are gone and the logs come from tree service. [a chosen few operators] So high grade sometimes lands here and i was reselling it until covid. I have proved after past failures that I can air dry hard maple without sticker shadow not that anybody wants it but I pride myself with at least knowing how to do things right like if I can't sell the logs and must saw them. Same goes for clear white pine even though many think it is cute. Funny how customers cull the blue stained boards.
There are several types of sticker stain, and it varies with the species of wood, and whether it manifests in the heartwood or the sapwood, or both. There is also mold stain as well as enzyme stain.
Oaks for example, will come down with a dark streak stain, generally caused by mold and insufficient airflow, either air drying, or in the kiln. Its is generally only a few fibers deep and easily planes out. Its will get worse deeper in the stack, and sometimes can become a problem in the sapwood of some species, such as white oak and hickory, where it won't plane out, although it will plane out in the heartwood. So when this happens, the solution is to edge off the sapwood, or better yet, don't let it happen in the first place.
In some species, using too dry of a sticker will cause reverse sticker stain, or white streaks, and I've seen it go deep enough to take a couple passes to plane out, which can be a pain. I generally see this in cherry or or sassafras, or other mildly shaded wood species. So I cycle my stickers and don't use just out of the kiln stickers for green off the mill wood. I'll let them air acclimatize in a bin and get to them after awhile.
The absolute worst, and generally the most common in "whitewoods" is enzyme stain. It can show up as black streaks under the stickers, or as white streaks because the rest of the white wood has turned gray. This enzyme stain almost always shows up in warm to hot weather, either outside while air drying or in the kiln. Basically, the sugars in the wood get too warm and begin to discolor, and this "gray stain" will go completely through the wood, and can't be planed out. Sometimes it even gets worse the deeper the wood gets planed. This is some bad stuff, and will ruin entire packs of wood. Sometimes it will even be so bad, its will look like "zebra stripes." Some big mills even have this problem. It has different stages, and spiral stickers will help in the initial stages, but the conditions are completely wrong, then nothing will help. In a kiln, the general rule of thumb is a 20 degree WB/DB separation, with air flows up in the 400 feet per minute range. When air drying, fans blowing over the stacks will really help, as it evaporates surface water and also helps keep the stacks cool.
Sticker stain in professionally kiln dried wood is a litmus test. When I purchase packs of wood from others, (I sometimes can't keep up with sales) then I will always grade them on their ability to dry "clean and bright." I just had a pack of poplar that I sent back to a relatively well known manufacturer because of some enzyme stain. It was a swing and a miss.
Quote from: Al_Smith on July 25, 2021, 04:37:22 PM
Quote from: moodnacreek on July 25, 2021, 10:11:24 AM
Quote from: Al_Smith on July 25, 2021, 07:11:07 AM
I went around and got dunnage boards from a couple of lumber yards ,freebies .Set up my table saw and cut them down to 3/4" stuff ,all 4 feet long .I had a couple of paper barrels full at one time. They are pine of course but they must have worked because the air dried lumber seems to be okay .There isn't any sticker stain on the oak, ash ,walnut or black cherry lumber I've seen .
Those woods don't count. It's sugar maple, elm. clear white pine, tulip and other 'white' woods that the stickers can ruin.
Now a question because I really don't know as I have none of those "white woods " .Generally speaking the rough lumber would be 1" thick and then planed down to say 3/4".Does the planning remove the sticker stain ?
In the case of hard white maple it will not plane out for sure. All 'white woods ' are touchy.
I have had ash get sticker stain. My sticks are scraps from the wood shop, boards never work out full width. Haven't gotten into shaping the sticks.