Air Drying vs Kiln Drying

[YellowHammer]

Here in Alabama, other business not selling kiln dried and sterilized wood are courting disaster and financial ruin. 

I get at least one call a week from some person or another who either bought wood or built a piece of furniture from wood that was either knowingly or unknowingly built with non kiln dried and sterilized lumber.

I call the pieces of furniture "dog leg" furniture because the usual customer complaint is that the table or chair has warped or twisted to the point it will "lift its leg" off the floor like a dog peeing.  I call the not sterilized furniture or flooring with bugs actively coming out of it a "nest."

The very upset "not my customer" gets even more upset when they ask me what I can do, and if I can sterilize their furniture in my kilns, bought from one of my competitors, and I simply tell them "Nope, if you want it solved, get your money back from them or call a lawyer.  I'm not getting on the middle of their mess."

As far a bug remediation, the problem balloons exponentially, very quickly.  If it's to the point where the bugs are coming out of the integral hardwood pieces of the house, which is often when the homeowner or wife of the homeowner notices the problem, usually powder post beetles, such as the flooring or timber or beams, then it becomes a real nightmare, and an insurance claim to replace the damaged or infested wood, no different than a termite infestation.  One of the local professional bug exterminators tells me about it routinely, he says although spraying with surface treatments with boron derivatives is effective to some extent, many home owners and insurance companies will not approve reconstruction of the damaged parts of the house until a "certified and licensed" exterminator has certified the house as 100% bug free, and the guy I know says the only way he personally will 100% certify a house is by tenting and fumigating, and that starts at $20K per house.  Only then will the insurance company, many times, and even the homeowner, agree to re inhabit the house.  Of course, the repair and reconstruction also costs money.  This may seem like overkill, but in a half million to million dollar house, who would buy one not certified bug free?  What bank would carry a loan on one?  None.  Most people could not care less if the bugs coming out of their wood are termites, powder post beetles, worms or even ants.  Yellowhammerism "Bugs is bugs and bugs is bad."

Obviously, then, the very first thing the homeowner's insurance company will do is look for the supplier or producer of the offending furniture and lumber and sue them for the money, which generally puts them out of business, or permanently ruins their reputation, if they have one. 

These are not isolated cases, but relatively common.

This is further proliferated by shady bug exterminators who have learned to feed off the clients worries and even point out holes in reclaimed but sterilized lumber in furniture, and tell them the wood is obviously infected, when it's not, and tell the customer that they need to pay to "take care of it."  Total criminal shakedown.  That's why we don't even sell reclaimed lumber any more, we tried for a short time, but I got tired of explaining that our wood was sterilized and got tired of customers telling horror stories of buying other's reclaimed and infested not sterilized wood and seeing bugs emerging out of their table while eating a pizza or out of a headboard and getting into their wife's hair.  It's also why we keep detailed sterilization and kiln drying records.

I can only speak for my area, in North Alabama and Southern Tennessee, but this is a real and constant problem, to such an extent that our insurance company requires us to pay for "End Users" and "Pests and Mold" additions to our business policy.

I am not insulting or dogging any on this Forum who does not kiln dry and sterilize, you guys know what you are doing and are informed and know your wood species and locales.  I just am saying this is my personal experience in my locale.   

[scsmith42]

LL, I think that the benefits of kiln drying will vary depending upon where in the world / country that your lumber is sourced.

My my area (NC USA), we have a lot of lyctid powder post beetles that will inhabit milled lumber.  The sterilization cycle performed at the end of the drying process will kill the beetles, their eggs and larvae, preventing an infestation from occurring after the flooring is installed.  If for no other reason, kiln drying is highly advised for lumber produced in my area that is destined for indoor use.

I don't disagree with that Scott but the same argument applies... there are plenty of items about that pre date the common use of KD lumber and the borers haven't eaten them yet.
And you know as well as I that heat sterilization will kill borers but should the material get wet again borer re-infestation can occur. I also know that you guys now have far more restrictions around the use of chemical barriers to insect pests than we do here.  Was it always that way in NC or was the use of borates, oil or pitch or some other preventative common there 100 years ago? Lead based paint would be pretty effective too I'd imagine.

I'm not saying kiln drying isn't a good thing or that its sometimes not the best thing, so much as that there are more than one ways to skin this particular cat.  As a processor the main benefit of a kiln I see is the accelerated cash flow cycle through not having to wait a year an inch for wood to dry, every other benifit of kiln drying has an alternate historically proven solution.

I don't disagree with you at all (and even have several old pieces of furniture in my own home that were built from air dried material).

As usual, Robert has very eloquently explained the logic in our part of the world for focusing primarily on selling kiln dried lumber.  And for us it's also a marketing point to help differentiate us from the competition.

Bugs were not as much of a problem in other parts of the US where I have lived, but they sure are here in the SE portion of the country.

[customsawyer]

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't the WoodDoc (Gene) say one time that the PPB couldn't or wouldn't bore into planed lumber?

[Don P]

But only on the 12th of January.

It will sure get into unfinished flooring sitting in a contaminated warehouse only to emerge later under the dining room table in the clients new house. I've also had it emerge from painted trim. Again I suspect that came from bad storage after KD and milling.

I've seen bugs do things extension say they don't do. We have pppb's, problem powderpost beetles, bad ash bostrichids, troubled turpentine beetles and non anorexic anobiids. We've heat treated wood for other contractors as well. I much prefer to give them the boot just before the wood heads for the job to be finished.

[caveman]

Jake, I do remember WoodDoc saying that about planed lumber and I was thinking about it while reading this thread.  

I don't intend to derail this discussion about kiln drying, but how often do y'all spray insecticide in your inside wood storage areas?  Come to think of it, we need to do this again.  Last time we used Talstar.  

[customsawyer]

My store is sprayed on a quarterly schedule by a bug company. With my volume of sales, I want there to be records that it is all being done. 

[Don P]

What are you spraying for, what is landing on the wood and are the customers warned about that if the lumber is sprayed? There's a slippery slope either way  .

[caveman]

DonP, I assume your question is for CustomSawyer, but we don't spray the wood in the shop, which is also our storage/sale area.  We do spray the floor and around the perimeter of the shop like I do when I spray my house to keep the bugs out and kill the ones that trespass. Jake's volume of sales far exceeds ours, but we try to do a good job with what we do-we are still splashing around in the shallow end of the pool.

We do treat hardwoods as they go onto stickers with DOT.  If there is any doubt, we run them through the hot box too after the solar kiln cycle.  Our polyethylene has faded on the solar kiln and it does not get as hot as it did when new.  Today, when I got off work, I checked it and it was 120* inside, about 30* over air temp.  When it had a clear top, it would routinely get 50-60* over air temp in the kiln.  We are reluctant to change anything since it does such a good job drying wood.  

[Don P]

It was for either/anyone, I was just curious what and why you were spraying. You're going after what I call pests vs the wood bugs. I should knock back some of my pests but I just use DOT on the wood. I've toyed with trying to get the barn/shop up to 150. I built it before I knew to borate my hardwoods so it is a source of contamination of the lumber... and I really don't want to burn it  .

[Machinebuilder]

What is DOT?

[taylorsmissbeehaven]

I have the same question. This is a new area for me and I am very curious as to what is needed and how to disclose all the info to a customer without alarming them. Im learning that many people have no idea about these problems and dont understand/want any chemicals on the wood they are buying for their next indoor project. Seems to be a bit of a catch 22 leaving the sawing with the short straw. Any advice would be much appreciated!!
Caveman, what style solar kiln are you using, VA tech plans? Im working on that as well. Lots to learn....

[YellowHammer]

Disodium Octagoratr Tetrahyrate (Timbor or Boracare or simialr)

[taylorsmissbeehaven]

Thanks Y.H. Timbor is what I am using. I understand and appreciate the push for organic but a house full of bugs is a problem as well!!! I like to know and understand what Im doing so I can explain it in a concise manner that doesnt scare people but helps them understand as well. Sometimes that can be a challenge.

[YellowHammer]

Remember, I am not the kiln drying police, and I am not telling people what to do or not to do, just my personal experiences on the subject.   Any of the pesticide treatments that I am aware of are surface treatments only, and they must be applied in such a way to create an uninterrupted surface layer much like a termite bond in the soil.  Penetration in heartwood of hardwood is very limited, but better in softwoods like pine.  It must be applied in a 1:1 concentrate for active maximum penetration.  That being said, again, in conversations with my bug guy, he says Boracare is the only pesticide approved in the state of Alabama for treatment of log homes, but I have not checked up on that.  Of course, using it on food bearing surfaces is in violation of the label.  It is toxic to fish and animals, I assume because it contains glycol.     

I used these in the past, however, they do not come without customer "issues" if you are selling wood as a business.

They are not foolproof unless applied correctly (seen that), do not kill the insects living in the wood which really grosses customers out ("Oh, sure the bugs are still alive but they will die when they come out and fly around your house for a while"), and should be disclosed to the customer that they are being applied (WHAT! You are spraying the wood I may use for my counter for cutting boards with a pesticide?")

Not only that, but if you spray rough sawn wood, sell it, and then the customer planes it off, are the bugs inside dead? Nope.

If you apply any pesticides as a business, are you a licensed pesticide applicator?  I used to have a Private Applicators Permit, but not a professional one, and my insurance told me I was opening myself up for lawsuits.

I remember the day I quit using any chemicals on my wood, I had a simple hand sprayer next to the sawmill, (I later figured out I was spraying it at such a low concentration, I was wasting my time) and a customer saw it, asked if I used chemical on my wood, and after I said yes, they walked out.  Simple as that. 

About once a week I still get asked the same question.  Now I just say "Nope, no chemicals touch my wood."

[mudfarmer]

Very enlightening discussion!

YH what do you use for blade lube to keep the no-chem customers happy?

Thankfully we seem to be outside the PPB range, mostly only have trouble with pine borers if I let logs sit around too long A heat chamber to be able to sterilize is "on the list" but the list is... so... long.....

[YellowHammer]

Good point, I never thought of that, I use diesel as a band film but maybe I should say "No pesticides" touch my wood.  The amount used is very little, a drop a cut, give or take (many times, I have the Lubemizer turned completely off, but do turn it on to clean the band when necessary, so I'm not sure it that would qualify as more than "incidental" exposure and as I say in my videos, "If you can see it, smell it, or tell it's there, than you are using too much diesel."  

In the old days, when I used water, I would add pesticides to the band lube while I was sawing and I stopped that because real quick I realized there wasn't enough getting to the wood as it would get wiped off at the entrance of the cut.

   

[mudfarmer]

Thanks, that makes sense Maybe just have to switch to biodiesel  I have warned people about bar&chain oil in sawdust from my firewood yard. Still incidental but sounds like a lot more than you are using for diesel.

[Machinebuilder]

Thanks, I have sprayed boards with Boracare and am now trying Timbor. I mix it according to the label instructions.

I should call and see if they sell direct, the company is very local to me.

As a hobbyist a kiln isn't likely for me.

[Don P]

I use Solubor, Beau-Ron, etc. Those are the ag labelled bags of Disodium Octa borate Tetrahydrate available locally at the farm store and about half the price of the pesticide labelled forms of DOT. Chemically they are identical and share the same CAS (chemical) number. It all comes out of the same hole it just goes into different bags. If you are a legal PCO, pest control operator, then you need to stay on label. If you're already a chemistry felon I don't think labels matter all that much.

Our soil tests always come back low in boron, that is the agricultural source. I can land apply my ag borate infused planer shavings and be considered organic. If I applied a pesticide labelled borate residue it would not be considered organic.  Life sure gets tedious don't it 

[Ianab]

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't the WoodDoc (Gene) say one time that the PPB couldn't or wouldn't bore into planed lumber?

I think, "much less likely" would be the correct term. Once the bug figures out it's wood, they look for a small crack to insert their eggs into. On a rough sawed or old weathered hunk of wood, there are plenty of opportunities for this. On a planed board, not so much, but they might find a tear out / surface check etc that's suitable. So it's not 100% sure. Finished furniture is even less likely to be infested, but still not 100% as there may be unfinished areas under or behind. 

Or the bugs could have got in before the wood was planed

I prefer to stick with the naturally durable bug resistant woods, I've never found bugs in dry Monterrey cypress or Port Orford Cedar. Although they will get into it when it's still green, they don't survive once it dries out. Local pine is generally all sapwood, and the local borer will get into that, dry or green. Different bugs, but as YH says, bugs is bugs. I've Borate dipped boards to discourage that, and it seems to have worked. No bugs coming out of the B&B pine wall in my workshop anyway. Borate is the lowest level of pressure treated here, and only rated for indoor use, as it's water soluble. But it's also not very toxic to pets / animals, compared to CCA treatments. The warning label simply says not to eat it, get it in your eyes or breathe the dust. 

Like Don says, it's sold as a trace element to add to fertiliser if your soil is naturally lacking, with no regulatory control like actually poisonous stuff. 

[customsawyer]

My chemical guy is spraying for "pest". He sprays around the building and checks the termite traps. The wood going in the store has been through the kiln and was sterilized. When It comes out of the kiln, I let it cool for a day in the store, and then run it through the planer. Then right back into the store. I'm not as worried with my pine and cypress and do fairly low volume on the other hardwoods.

[taylorsmissbeehaven]

Thats pretty funny Don! The fine print of life can really be confusing. Timbor has been my recent go to but my thoughts on setting up a small kiln may be justified if I continue down the path I think Im on. Much/most of the lumber I cut is for personal use but its nice to be able to sell enough to pay for bands ect. This is great info thanks to all

[Magicman]

Timbor and Solubor are the exact same product but since Solubor is classified as a fertilizer it is much more economical:  LINK

[YellowHammer]

Timbor and other "pure" DOT are wettable powders and have limited penetration into the wood, basically, a pure surface treatment.  These are not as effective as enhanced products such as Boracare, which are mixed with glycol and helps soak into the wood, up to 1/4" which is better than not.  If the surface treatment is removed, such as logs then split or milled into beams, then the protection is gone. 

The glycol is added as a penetrant, (read the label) to overcome the weakness of a pure surface treatment for a common use of a whole or partial log in a modern house construction, i.e. the installation of a reclaimed barn beam.  Although sprayed as a surface treatment, it does not kill the bugs in the beams until they emerge and pass through the treated area.  Hence the term I use for such beams: "A nest watching TV at the same time you are".  When informed that a homeowner has installed not just one, but several nests in their home, they will very quickly do a little freak out, and run for the hills.  When asked what to do, I simply tell them to ask for a professional, licensed exterminator to inspect and treat, and sign off on it.  Not my problem, that's why I don't sell logs, beams, or reclaimed wood.   

I had one customers come to me and ask my advice as they were seeing "little bugs" coming out of the old barn beams used in their multi million dollar lake house.  I told them to ask how the log beams had been sterilized, and the customer said the contractor said they had been sprayed with a non enhanced DOT product, and was told by the seller "It would kill everything."  I said "Nope, and don't take my word for it, read the label, it is surface treatment only, go see a pro exterminator or a lawyer, or both."  The customer stood there, husband and wife with their mouths handing open, and said "No, no way", they had been assured the bugs had been killed.  So I laughed, said "Obviously not if they are coming out of the beams and landing on your big screen TV" and so I downloaded the product label real time, texted it to them, read it to them "Surface treatment, penetration to 1/8" and they left doing the "freak out."  I'm not sure what happened after that but they were more than upset.

[Don P]

YH and I were writing at the same time so he covered some of this.

The old timers have heard all this before. Timbor/ Solubor, etc ... make sure you get the wettable powder not the time release granule form of boron.

Boracare, Shellgard, etc contain some form of glycol, Boracare uses ethylene glycol which is toxic, others use non toxic polyethylene glycol or propylene glycol, or one of the other non toxic glycols. Glycols are a slow evaporating alcohol, "permanent water". Their only role is to keep the wood wet longer to let the borate penetrate dry wood deeper. Use solubor on green wood and avoid the cost of trying to do a less effective treat to already dry wood using expensive and potentially more toxic formulations of borate.

That is important to understand, wood has to be at fiber saturation levels or above, free water present in the wood, for borate to move either in or out of the wood. Its mobility is by diffusion. It travels on the wet from levels of high concentration to areas of low concentration as long as there is free water for it to diffuse in. It is salt water diffusing in fresh water until it is all at the same concentration. There is no better time to apply than right off the saw.