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1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting

Started by jemmy, August 29, 2018, 11:14:40 AM

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Jeff

Please don't run that saw anymore. Hang it on a wall somewhere or paint a sign on it.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

jemmy

Well I am very happy I shut things down when I did... When I saw those cracks I knew something was very wrong, and then I thought to myself, "I bet this thing is structurally unsound and might shred apart" So I gave a shout out to my guardian angel for not letting me die quite yet. Ive already got plans for this saw, it should make for a great sign out front!!!! Im still kinda quaking in my boots about that saw. I wasnt as concerned about the missing teeth, i figured that would happen on occasion. Those cracks are another deal though. I figure that saw is a pretty much a bomb waiting to go off... 
Plan for the worst, hope for the best, and take what comes with a grin. - Grandpa Chuck

jemmy

And that makes sense for the guide pins... I didnt really think about the saw getting pulled to the point of ruining or hitting the cart, but I see how it could easily do that! Gosh now that Im sawing I understand why people like bandsaws so much...  
Plan for the worst, hope for the best, and take what comes with a grin. - Grandpa Chuck

thecfarm

Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Don P

I've skimmed the carriage and the dogs, neither of which you ever want to get into so yes do keep your eyes open and thinking cap on at all times. It is not good to ever throw shanks but it will happen occasionally. Take your proposed blade to a sawdoc to be checked and tensioned, it sounds like the previous owner ran his gear hard. One thing to keep in mind is most, but certainly not all stuff thrown by the blade travels in the plane of the blade. Make a point of not being in that line, front or rear, any more than you have to be. I line up, look down that line if needed and then step back to pull the stick.

apm

It looks like your saw collar is undersized, as well. Make sure it is the same diameter as the back one.

Greg
Timberking 1600 now

DMcCoy

JC!  That blade gives me the shivers. 

Your 56" saw- those look like 5/16" 4 1/2 8/9 bits.  I would check for stamp marks on your shanks and see if they are still available before spending too much on getting your saw reconditioned.

Yes keep your head out of the saw plane of rotation.  I have both circle mill and bandsaw.  The circle mill will flat out saw faster but has more waste.  It also has the sound and scratch marks you just can't beat.

Jeff

I cant imagine ever sawing without guide pins. Even with them, things can get hairy.

Duck and run! A circle sawyer initiation. in Sawmills and Milling

Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

jemmy

Jeff, that is some scary stuff. Where can I go to have my blade looked at? I don't think my local fab shop will really know what to do :) . I am in the Toledo area, I'm not apposed to driving a great deal to have quality work done. I have a different "good" blade that I should take and have looked at, I assume, before sawing with it, especially after this fiasco.  Btw Jeff the quote on your profile couldn't be more applicable in this thread  ;)
Plan for the worst, hope for the best, and take what comes with a grin. - Grandpa Chuck

Ron Wenrich

Get in touch with one of the local circle mills and find out who they have hammer their saws.  In our area, we had a local saw shop stop by once a month.  They sold mill supplies like files, teeth, etc, and they would pick up saws for hammering.  They would deliver in the next month.  But, if I needed something done right away, I could take the saw to their shop and wait on it.  If you get to talk to a saw doc, you'll learn quite a bit.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

jemmy

Ok so I swapped out blades this week and started the mill up to start figuring out this archaic piece of machinery. I am still struggling to find the appropriate rim speed. I had a few moments that gave me legit anxiety, like a positive feed back loop in my brain making me a little timid. I was bring the saw up to speed and the blade appeared to wobble to a GREAT degree for about a quarter second and made a bit of noise. I powered it down immediately. Took a few deep breaths and then started the motor back up. I slowly brought the blade up to speed, watching it want to stand up when I was full throttle, but the top end of that gear was not getting it done, so i shifted it into second and it finally stood up. Once the blade was standing I brought the cart down the line. When the wood made contact with the blade it lost significant RPMs. So I backed it out and kept jacking the RPM's up. But each time it entered the wood I would lose RPM's. While the motor was wound up the blade looked like it was traveling too quick. Or the blade needs rehammered, because it looked "wavy" it wasnt wobbling, but it looked bowed in a goofy fashion. Which freaked me out so I powered it down and now I am sitting in front of my computer typing. I cant keep my RPM's low because the motor keeps giving each time I enter the wood. But I dont know if I am too fast or the blade needs attention. Its a catch 22, I cant run it too fast due to blade, but the motor needs to be wound up to keep the appropriate RPMs. I need this mill to run SOON I have a few projects that are starting to bark down my door. I couldnt imagine buying 500$ of lumber when I have spent so much time and energy getting this thing to this point. It is 95% there, just need to cut 8 4x6s to lay out the track extensions, and build my log stage. Then the mill is "complete". Is there anyone that does mill consulting? I'm going to reach out to the previous owner and see if he can come down and help me trouble shoot. And does anyone know of any saw docs near Toledo? I imagine I would look into Michigan for such a service. Another note, my cable system keep "loosening" significantly after 2 passes. I have no idea why that is happening, but my theory is that the cable keeps lengthening each time it is put under stress. But I have taken multiple inches out of it multiple times.
Plan for the worst, hope for the best, and take what comes with a grin. - Grandpa Chuck

dgdrls

jemmy,

you have to know your engine speed and arbor speed
otherwise your guessing and the saw will never perform well

D

Ron Wenrich

Get yourself a digital tach and stop guessing. $10-20 on Ebay.  You'll probably find one local.

Make sure you're not getting belt slippage to the mandrel.  

After you have a problem, check your saw too see where it is hot.  If there isn't much heat, then it isn't the saw.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Woodpecker52

Woodmizer LT-15, Ross Pony #1 planner, Ford 2600 tractor, Stihl chainsaws, Kubota rtv900 Kubota L3830F tractor

jemmy

Well I know I need to some leveling, but even so I dont know whats going on with the motor, it seems like its wanting to die. Could the blade not standing up correcting cause the blade to cut so bad that it robs RPMs? Thats one theory I have. I'm going to do the nut check and start reading some manuals tonight, and start on a lot of knick nacky projects. It's very close to being able to cut. Just needs a trained eye and an after noon. I have a RPM laser gauge but its inconsistent but even then the RPMs falling is weird. And the cable system, might need replaced, but how much slack can I take out right? haha
Plan for the worst, hope for the best, and take what comes with a grin. - Grandpa Chuck

jemmy

When I did my first 10ft x 12" cut it seemed like the motor could just power through it, so Idk why its having problems getting through when the blade seems to be standing. I can see the the right RPM's where it stands but the RPMs fall as the log hits it. So I cranked it up slowly and blade seemed to be doing ok but it kept dying. A few minor adjustments up I see the blade twisted goofy, so I powered it down and came on here to see what happened. And what I can do to learn. Im going to be studying some manuals over the coarse of the next week.
Plan for the worst, hope for the best, and take what comes with a grin. - Grandpa Chuck

moodnacreek

As you probably have been told the speed of the saw must remain in the cut.  A big problem for beginners is understanding the swage of the teeth and how it must be equal on both sides. Getting the lead just right is a real pain because if everything is not perfect you can't tell what's going on. Go by the book and be fussy about the teeth as they take the saw where they want.

Sawmill Man

You could also be having governor or fuel delivery problems
"I could have sworn I went over that one with the metal detector".

Trapper John

If your Detroit has a transmission it probably came out of a truck and probably has a limited speed governor.  You will need a variable speed governor.  Or maybe your belt is slipping.

Jeff

Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Ron Wenrich

How cold was it when you were trying to get things to go right?   When it gets really cold, things don't go as well.  Especially if you have any water in your fuel.  We always put in fuel conditioner in our tanks.  Metal also doesn't work as well when there is extreme cold.

As for teeth, when I troubleshoot, I always start with new teeth.  That way you eliminate any tooth maintenance problems.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

jemmy

Well I have been chunking out that circle mill document. But its like drinking from a fire hose. There's about a million things that could be the issue, and I dont know how to properly asses and address the issues. That is why I am interested in someone coming to point at things that are wrong, and how to fix it. This mill is a nice foundation, it has a 5" beam(s) for its foundation and I put it on a very big foundation. (it is 36"+ thick concrete and 3ft wide) Its just all of the multiple potential issues that has my brain in a twist. I dont even know where to start. I figure even if these teeth are dull that this motor would not have any issues with a 12" cut. I wanted to get this thing running and deal with discrepancies as they arrive and put out each fire as it shows itself. Similar to a truck, you get it running, and find out the breaks are working, or an injector is bad etc. But if it cant start then you cant begin to analyze problems. I dont know what I am looking at half the time and words on a page dont always translate. I am mechanically inclined and when something doesn't seem "right" I can usually see it. But this takes a trained eye. And due to the nature of this thing I really don't want to pay a boat load of tuition in time, headaches, cash, or even my life. I can see how things can go wrong, and FAST, there are no brakes on the blade, and when something goes wrong i can kill the motor, but the blade doesnt stop running for a very long time. I am pretty committed to making this work. I just need to solve this jigsaw asap. Im also in school full time and many other Irons in the fire. I would like this to minimally produce lumber for myself, and slowly build a business around it. Maybe I wont sell dimensional, but there are many potential revenue streams this could contribute to. Its been a two year project and I am at a point where I need someone to set eyes on it so they can tell me the first steps to take. As of right now, I think one of my first moves is replacing the cable. It keeps lengthening each time the cart travels down the track. I have taken multiple feet out of it, which makes NO sense.
Plan for the worst, hope for the best, and take what comes with a grin. - Grandpa Chuck

jemmy

it was a nice day when I did the test cut. 55 degrees and sunny. So weather was not the factor to blame. Definitely the nut behind the wheel. 
Plan for the worst, hope for the best, and take what comes with a grin. - Grandpa Chuck

Woodpecker52

I decided I better get rid of my circle mill when I had the mill carriage jump the track with a log and come barreling straight at me,  I was smart enough to have built a steel roll bar cage  around the mill husks and sawyer stand. Just to many things can go wrong and in a hurry.
Woodmizer LT-15, Ross Pony #1 planner, Ford 2600 tractor, Stihl chainsaws, Kubota rtv900 Kubota L3830F tractor

moodnacreek

Had a miserable time when I started and I am mechanically inclined if nothing else.  When you push a board through a table saw you are guiding that board. When you dog a log or cant to a carriage and power feed it through a rip saw you have no control. The saw has to be running flat and cut the wood without touching anything but the teeth. The saw plate is there to support the teeth only. Start with new teeth and have the saw going at the right rpm or a little faster. Feed a nice, clean log slowly part way in and back out and observe. The trouble may start when you pass the center of the saw. Have the guide pins not toughing the saw but just there as a safety measure. If the saw goes left or right you will see it getting closer to the guide pins and at least know what it's doing. The condition of the teeth and the lead would cause this most likely.  Circle sawmills are much more fussy than many think. If you could get an expert to come and watch he may spot the trouble. Don't embarrass yourself with dull out of square teeth if you get somebody.

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