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General Forestry => General Board => Topic started by: mike_belben on September 06, 2021, 04:24:28 PM

Title: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: mike_belben on September 06, 2021, 04:24:28 PM
I dont wanna keep derailing garden threads with stuff not related to gardens.



(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/0906211224-1.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1630959830)



for you cow corn gurus, how many ears should i get on a stalk?  i planted a bit too dense thinking my sprouted seeds would have some loss but not one of them actually died.  the most robust stalks hit around 9ft tall with 2 ears, and the runts are trapped underneath at 1/3rd the size.  since im feeding the corn to chickens i am removing the stalks as i harvest 2 mature ears, in hopes that the runts can respond and finish off.  but im seeing small 3rd ears on those big stalks.  

you think they will they come to fruition or fizzle out?  i have to weigh the nutrient and light cost of a monster stalk crowding a little one that has 2 mid sized ears, where keeping the big stalk may only provide a stir fry baby corn and also prevent the shaded ears from filling out.  

at my present scale it doesnt matter at all, but i prefer to learn sooner rather than later.

this was august 2nd


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/0802210640_Film1.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1627908213)



(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/0802210640a_Film1.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1627908225)
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: farmfromkansas on September 06, 2021, 09:49:54 PM
I drove a silage truck for the neighbors the other day, and the corn stalks looked like they were about every 4" in the row, and each had one big ear of corn, the 2nd ear did not develop other than a small shuck. We have had pretty good rains this summer, the one Sept 2 was just in time, we received 2 3/4".  It was just in time for the beans.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: mike_belben on September 06, 2021, 09:55:31 PM
Is that the new magic number, crowd them in and get 1 ear per stalk?  Or was it a failure to get the 2nd ear and a big yield loss per acre? 



Im really unsure of what happens when you pull a ripe ear off and leave the other to grow.  Whether it gains in size or ends up stunted or over ripening etc.  First time corn made it to maturity for me. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: farmfromkansas on September 06, 2021, 09:59:24 PM
They had to get some bales and make the pile longer.  Think it was a huge success.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: btulloh on September 06, 2021, 10:06:27 PM
One big ear, one second ear that's pretty good if spacing is adequate. Anything beyond that is a freak show.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: mike_belben on September 06, 2021, 10:48:42 PM
I cant believe it took me this many months to stumble onto virginia techs weed id database.  Theres a lot of nutrition in "weeds"

https://weedid.cals.vt.edu/
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: moodnacreek on September 07, 2021, 07:55:25 AM
Mike, I'm surprised you did that good with the corn [being from Mass and all].  2 ears and a nubbin is the best I ever do but more like 1 big ear and a nubbin most times. That high nitrogen fertilizer is too much $. If you plant the same ground [with corn] next year you would do worse.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: farmfromkansas on September 07, 2021, 09:46:03 AM
I have found that composted cow manure is just the best fertilizer.  There is a lot of bedding mixed with it, and bale bottoms, that is the stuff left in the feeder when the cows have gone through it, that is piled in the spring and allowed to heat, which kills the seed.  Have been spreading it the last couple weeks, even on hot days steam comes out of the pile when I disturb it with the loader.  The hay that comes out of the pile is gray colored like it has been on fire.  I just load it on my manure spreader and spread it on poor grass.  Native grass, (CRP) seems to benefit more than brome grass, but all does better.  Just a thin layer really helps the health of the grass.  Had a field that was so poor that it only had a little tuft of grass here and there, with a lot of bare dirt between the tufts, and since putting on some manure it has thickened the grass significantly. Would put it on farm ground if there was enough to go around, but going to get the grass healthy first.  Does take a couple years before the compost fully breaks down and becomes dirt, which helps more.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: mike_belben on September 07, 2021, 12:46:24 PM
Quote from: moodnacreek on September 07, 2021, 07:55:25 AM
Mike, I'm surprised you did that good with the corn [being from Mass and all].
yeah i know'd it.    ;)

i think it was 3 or 4 sweet corn fails before i got good enough at soil building. but it still took a boatload of fertilizer.. corn is a spendy crop to produce. if it keeps taking more fertilizer to produce the same yield your soil microorganisms are dying off. jumpstart them back with an abundance of organic matter, moisture and time.

here is a current pic with the largest ears removed and the suffocated ones now getting front row, seem to be responding pretty fast.  

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/0906211608.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1631031566)

you can see that tilled up strip in the background.  it was a little too hard when i planted this but i let it grow knee high grass, right up into the tomatoes, cukes and squash that i had twined up to fenceposts or an A-frame stick arbor.  the weeds didnt stop any of that from growing but the grass root system dug down into the hard clay and gave it broke it up.  i flipped that big green afro with a shovel and let it suffocate then rototilled to break the sod up. let the weeds provide organic matter.


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/0907211819.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1631112024)

will be seeding it with some cool season stuff today.  some corn is gonna stay as a sunscreen until the new stuff is hardy enough and hot season has waned a bit.  then ill chop the rest of the corn out. (i planted early radish, white beets, forage rape, kale, purple top turnip and cabagge.  need more space to open up before i can put in the bush beans, onion and rutabega.)


the stalks that were completely enclosed in the center of the patch with no access to direct sun have only put on one large ear and much less leaf, as well as less height while having no more than 8" in any direction, very dense. some of them are 4" apart.  those stalks are really spindly, half the diameter of the big ones, and half the height.  but on the other hand- the ears arent really much smaller. so that jammed together segment probably extracted a lot less soil resources per cob.   maybe thats how the high density wins.. less fertilizer input? less nutrient extraction to grow the same tonnage of grain?    at a glance, i am thinking more space would be much more productive in tonnage of green stover if you were grinding it all for feed. maybe im wrong.. just thinking out loud.




@farfromkansas-  the hot, white smokey thing is a function of hot composting.  some living microbe produces it.  they are breaking down the carbon (straw, hay, wood chip, leaves etc.  "browns") and consuming the nitrogen (manures, grass etc "Greens") as an energy source i guess. having it cooking hot and a little sweet smelling (ammonia) means youve got plenty of nitrogen, maybe excess so it happens fast.  if youre really cooking even in winter, add some browns.. take advantage of the huge microbial action present to reduce all the browns you can because they are whats really slow.  like rotting wood and bark.  the more you pee on it the faster it turns brown.  the nitrogen in that whiz is like hiring a small crew of workers for a huge project.  when youve got a huge manure hill, you have enough workers present to break down 2 more equal sized sawdust piles.  you can get dirt in about a month by mixing that ratio if it stays hot.  

its odd the things youll think are fun when you quit drinking.  
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: Southside on September 07, 2021, 03:40:17 PM
Quote from: mike_belben on September 07, 2021, 12:46:24 PMif it keeps taking more fertilizer to produce the same yield your soil microorganisms are dying off


Guess I would say that a little differently.  In many cases the fertilizer is the reason your soil biology is dying off to begin with.  Crops remove nutrients from the soil as they are harvested and one way or another those nutrients need to be replaced.  The scaled solution has been chemical fertilizer, but that comes with a cost.  For example, nitrogen in the form of urea or anhydrous ammonia is a desiccant, so all the worms, micro flora, etc in the region of application suffer and you end up with dead zones that ironically can only be "repaired" with additional fertilizer.  Self fulfilling circling of the drain.  
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: newoodguy78 on September 07, 2021, 06:36:17 PM
That's an excellent description of what I feel has taken place on this ground I'm working here. I've been trying cover crops and applying "compost" horse manure that's been piled up for years. It's amazing to see the ground and plants respond so well. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: mike_belben on September 08, 2021, 10:49:15 AM
visit to a friend yesterday, "army worm" has eaten up an entire paddock on him and apparently a lot of others.  he is maybe 15 miles from me.  i guess the whole region is out of pesticide and its spreading fast.  not good.


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/0907211517.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1631111598)


you can see how brown and dead all this goose grass is.  the permanent fence makes for permanent cow walking paths that are too compacted to grow and has luckily prevented them from crawling into the other fields. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: beenthere on September 08, 2021, 12:32:04 PM
Mike
Spectracide Triazicide


is in stock on Amazon in gal concentrate. 

Sorry to read about the army worms. Gotta stay ahead of them.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: mike_belben on September 08, 2021, 01:06:11 PM
thanks BT.  
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: newoodguy78 on September 08, 2021, 02:33:12 PM
That's a bad deal for sure. How many acres are effected
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: mike_belben on September 08, 2021, 05:44:07 PM
not too many at jackie's.. thats his sacrificial mudlot for rainy weather to keep the leased pasture from getting pugged up. this one drains pretty fast with all the slope.  the bulk of it is in that picture. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: moodnacreek on September 08, 2021, 08:45:17 PM
Mike when I weed the corn I leave the pulled weeds in the row to get tilled later. My wife doesn't like that and she picks up her weeds and throws them over the bank.  So the next time you stop by you can talk to her about this and easy on the hammer coming up from Port J. :)
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: mike_belben on September 08, 2021, 09:52:18 PM
'fraid Its gonna be a while on that trip doug. I will be sure to stop and harrass you though.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: mike_belben on September 08, 2021, 10:13:38 PM
Woodchipper eats corn just fine. After 3 days of fermenting in water my birds are happy eating chopped cobs too so in it goes.


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/0908211521-1.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1631151648)



(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/0908211526.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1631151992)


Corn is incredibly digestible compared to other feeds, and fermenting just increases that.  

Maize grain, yellow | Feedipedia (https://www.feedipedia.org/node/11668)

Gonna ferment the chopped stover too, incase i find some free pigs and have to overwinter. This stuff should be pretty rich given it just came off the stalk.  Chopping and fermenting will improve digestibility, very fibrous otherwise.

Maize stover | Feedipedia (https://www.feedipedia.org/node/16072)


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/0908211552.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1631152007)



Tomorrow i will chop up more yard greens and ugly maters.. Hopefully i can make enough free feed tomorrow to get the whole crop to slaughter weight.


I planted a lot of leafy green cool season proteins yesterday to make up for the warm season ones that will be trailing off soon.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: Southside on September 08, 2021, 10:53:58 PM
Funny - the corn in your pool looks just like whats known as shredlage.  Guys pay big bucks for a forage harvester that will produce that material. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: mike_belben on September 08, 2021, 11:28:47 PM
Go figure.  Got mine at the scrapyard  ;D
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: Nebraska on September 09, 2021, 08:01:10 AM
A silage  chopper and a wood chipper are very similar machines, if you think about it. Just one handles a much large volume of finer stemmed stuff.  Conceptually the guts aren't much different.  When you are done chopping Mike  make sure you pack and tarp the pile well so you get a good fermentation. Oxygen will spoil the batch. Wait six weeks and it's  done.  :)
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: Nebraska on September 09, 2021, 08:26:12 AM
My 2 cents since this is the forage thread.  Just some pictures.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/55256/20210908_113025.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1631189328)
 

Yes corn in a field along the road.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/55256/20210908_113309.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1631189025)
 
It's been a few weeks  since I checked an ear. This stuff  is very good that ear has a diameter almost  as wide  as my phone.  Those corn plants are roughly  nine feet tall. Rains came in a timely manner. Soybeans look pretty good for the most part.  We missed very dry conditions  by  about 80 miles.


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/55256/20210908_182637.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1631189004)
 

Got a second cutting of cool season grass put up last night.  I cut the stuff I won't late season graze...A small four acre patch left to do this evening. Then pick up the bales.  Clean up and grease the equipment  and put it away til next year.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: mike_belben on September 09, 2021, 12:14:06 PM
wow, nice work doc.

i have been reading about ensiling trying to decide what to do with the green shred.  the corn cob mash already got soaked in water overnight and a little fed out this morning. its obvious that its producing vinegars and they ate it like gangbusters.  i have to hurry up and go get a drum from a neighbor before the stover loses any more quality.. i mean not that it matters, im just playing right now to see what can be scaled up..but the stover is getting pickled like kimchee.  

this has been the best single source ive come across about the whats going on part of ensiling
Understanding the process of corn silage fermentation and starch availability | Hubbard Feeds (https://www.hubbardfeeds.com/blog/understanding-process-corn-silage-fermentation-and-starch-availability)


and yes, it only took a few minutes to determine there is a really really big industry for the machine shops when it comes to shredlage now that i know the term to look it up.  ag universities are on board and the data suggests its the best technology for high output dairy feed. makes seeded out dry bales look pretty unappealing!


i would say there is a tremendous opportunity for someone to produce a user serviceable, corn harvesting and shredding rig that runs on 35 PTO hp and can be afforded by a working class mortal.  shortages are normalized, everyone is gonna have food on the mind as less and less is available for more and more dollars. you could finish animals a lot faster on good feed year round.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: newoodguy78 on September 09, 2021, 12:25:56 PM
I've got to look into this shredlage deal , I've never heard of it. Without knowing anything about it seems like a comparable product could be made by backing the shear bar off and or taking knives out . The flail choppers the old timers used to green chop come to min as well.
Can't imagine digging that stuff out of the bunk after it's piled, that stuff must bind together like crazy.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: Southside on September 09, 2021, 01:09:31 PM
My what big ears you have there @Nebraska (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=45256)  :D  :D  :D

Many pto driven, single row corn choppers used to be along fence rows in the iron pile on old farms.  Probably the last scrap metal peak claimed a lot of them.  They ran on low HP, but like anything else went out of favor given their efficiency.  If it's you and one other guy trying to get the $300-$400 / acre cash expense corn in before the weather turns do you want to chop one row at a time or 16?  

To me if you want to put up a good forage, and do so with less investment, and lower risk, then baleage of perennial grasses and legumes are the key.   
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: farmfromkansas on September 09, 2021, 02:09:31 PM
The neighbors have a 12 row cornhead and they mount it on their silage chopper, and grind up just the ears, and call it "earlage".  They have a pile of earlage along with a pile of silage, and a lot of round bales, they grind the round bales, store it under a pole type building, also have a pile of distillers grain, go to the trench and pile on so many pounds of silage, so many earlage, so much distillers grain, and so many pounds of ground hay, mix it up in a silage truck and put it in feed line bunks.  They usually feed 1200 steers.  Me, just have a cow calf operation, and I feed bales.  The alfalfa I can unroll on winter pasture, have about 100 bales of oats baled when the grain was in milk stage, and hope to be able to unroll that on the grass.  One bale will tell if it will work.  Otherwise, brome and native grass go in bale feeders in the corral, which I leave open unless the cows need worked. Feeding on the grass creates a lot of cow patties, and that helps keep the native grass healthy.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: newoodguy78 on September 09, 2021, 05:33:33 PM
It's a shame how much farm equipment got scrapped, some of it still had plenty of use left for smaller operations.
I agree making baleage is probably the most efficient way for smaller operations to make high quality feed.
If nothing else it takes a bit of the weather struggle out of making higher quality hay.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: Nebraska on September 09, 2021, 09:44:35 PM
Those little choppers  are still lurking about, my dad owned half of a single row Ford unit.  I remember dad chopping forage sorghum silage when I was a little boy. I don't remember where it went.  Seems like we ran it on a 70hp propane buring Minneapolis Moline tractor.

Mike take a look at Ag bag. I have folks using it for silage/haylage, dry and wet corn storage in the field.  If I were going to mess with the green chop silage like you are, I would  try those 3 mil contractor cleanup bags fill them seal them then stack them up. (OK no really I would buy a silage kit for my round baler and wrap the bales.... its been thought about)...Since you have a back  hoe though, you could make a trench lined with plastic sheeting then fill/pack until heaped and cover with a plastic tarp and use dirt to seal the edges and old tires to weight it down as long as the O2 is shut off it should  ferment well.  The pile will shrink. Enjoy the learning.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: mike_belben on September 09, 2021, 10:54:41 PM
I pickled the corn chop fines today, literally.  Theyre in a drum with water, salt, vinegar, some yogurt and probiotic chick grit to attempt dropping PH and innoculating before yeast and mold eat it.  Will see what happens. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: newoodguy78 on September 10, 2021, 07:39:26 AM
 :P
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: Southside on September 10, 2021, 07:43:50 AM
Why do I keep hearing "Copperhead Road" playing in the background now while reading Mike's posts?  :D
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: farmfromkansas on September 10, 2021, 08:26:00 AM
I have a neighbor who bought a bale wrapper.  Think the brand is Anderson. It has 2 rolls of plastic, and a gas engine with a belt, and the thing spins the bales and wraps them with the plastic. He gets it wrapped tight enough to seal, and can put wrap on a row of bales.  Start at the beginning, just put the bales on the rear of the wrapper and keep adding bales till the whole row is wrapped. Has a plastic cap to seal the ends.  He baled his sedan green, and when he took it out of the row it was still green.  Cows loved the stuff.  Said he would wrap for 3$ plus cost of plastic, but you have to have all the bales carried up so you can put a bale on the wrapper every 30 seconds.  Thing is fast. I looked at the bags, looks like a lot of trouble to get them put on and sealed, decided the millet and sorghum sedan feed is just not all that great, as the cows turn their noses up at it.  Baled dry. Decided to try oats for forage.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: moodnacreek on September 10, 2021, 08:27:15 AM
Quote from: mike_belben on September 08, 2021, 09:52:18 PM
'fraid Its gonna be a while on that trip doug. I will be sure to stop and harrass you though.
It's long overdue.  If you stay down there any longer your gonna lose your Yankee accent.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: Southside on September 10, 2021, 08:40:16 AM
I have a 3 point hitch wrapper, makes individual bales that way, uses more wrap but provides flexibility. Makes great feed. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: mike_belben on September 10, 2021, 09:19:03 AM
Quote from: moodnacreek on September 10, 2021, 08:27:15 AM
Quote from: mike_belben on September 08, 2021, 09:52:18 PM
'fraid Its gonna be a while on that trip doug. I will be sure to stop and harrass you though.
It's long overdue.  If you stay down there any longer your gonna lose your Yankee accent.
luckily im from the part of the state that doesnt have one.  the not boston side.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: mike_belben on September 10, 2021, 09:27:56 AM
Quote from: Southside on September 10, 2021, 07:43:50 AM
Why do I keep hearing "Copperhead Road" playing in the background now while reading Mike's posts?  :D
its funny that ive never met anyone in the south making moonshine.  meth absolutely, seems like 1 in 3, but not shine.  my brother up north had all kinds of stills for a while.  and i coulda made a mess of them by now but its just not my jam.  i study the word every day.  


i did have a novel thought today.. why dont i just go find the itty bitty hipster micro brews and find out exactly what fancy grains they want. they can put all that local, non gmo, all natch, pesticide free organic vegan unfertilized blah blah labelling on to make it extra exclusive.  so far i can grow wheat and rye like red maple sprouts. then i could get the spent grains back for feed after theyve already paid me once. feed it to meaty things and it pays me again.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: mike_belben on September 10, 2021, 09:37:26 AM

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/0909211627.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1631273948)


yesterday i used some really high tech stuff - a busted kiddie pool, a yellow plastic stick with bubbles in it, a scrapped server enclosure vent door, plastic barrel and slave labor - to sort the fines from the unfines.  ran the unfines through the chipper again but it just cant reduce this stuff any more unless it dries out, which i guess will have to just be fine with me.


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/0909211643.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1631273691)


im on the fence about a test batch of fermenting/pickling the coarse shreds to see if pigs, deer or cows like it in winter.. or just turning it back into the compost pile.  yes, the dirt would be happy with it but i would glean no new information from that.  


theres the first mash experiment.  charts are showing that if i did it right, itll be at its best around mid february which is perfect. in terms are predigesting starches and fibers, and staying at a low and stable PH to prevent bad juju.


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/0910210639.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1631274089)



my thought here is that i bet i can get some free little meaty things in winter when the feed bill and heating bill is hurting someone who has to make some tough choices.  so maybe having fence and food for free little meaty things in winter is a good way to get started growing meaty things.  i will bet livestock prices go in my favor every single winter.  what are yalls thoughts on that?
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: mike_belben on September 10, 2021, 10:12:16 AM
so the woodchippered corn cobs went to a different bucket.  the one that should plump up some cornish crosses for the freezer.

grabbed the mini sickle, took a few laps around the various corners of my overgrown yard and rounded up the split tomatoes, a fistfull of dock, arm full of yellow sweet clover with a bit of red clover, some giant ragweed, a good clump of ryegrass and a bundle of really fresh, lush crabgrass tops.  

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/0909211245-1.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1631282408)

tossed that all on the ground, and hit it with my push bagger mower.  next time i will dump it out and do it again.  this was matched with about an equal amount of corn stover fines on the green side.


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/0909211246.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1631282770)


then combined with the yellow side that really keeps birds hammering it looking for yellow flecks ..


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/0909211421.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1631282356)


and finally...

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/0909211454.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1631282329)



made 1 full pail and dumped all the same inoculant junk in there to try to get it firing with lactic and acetic acid.  plus the vinegar to give it a jumpstart in PH decline and hopefully keep the juju away.  all rainwater by the way.  chlorinated water will kill the lacto whatever strains im trying to promote.


i already know they love it.  the question is, will they be healthy and will they reach market weight in the normal time frame. and will they taste good.  ive got a little under $100 into this whole experiment including the birds and all their accessories and supplements.  a lot cheaper than sending boy to a 4 year AG program.  
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: mike_belben on September 10, 2021, 12:00:19 PM
this guy is a dandy. 

Walt Davis Ranch :: Romancing the Clover Gods (http://www.waltdavisranch.com/articles/romancing-clover-gods)
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: Tacotodd on September 10, 2021, 12:08:09 PM
Mike, your boy sure is turning out to be a man right before our eyes! Good job on the training👍
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: farmfromkansas on September 10, 2021, 01:38:57 PM
All the forages will keep well if you get it dry and keep it dry.  The bottom of round bales is a problem, as they get wet from rain on the ground.  So I have taken to laying 2 poles about 2' apart to put a row of bales on.  Keeps the bottom dry.  And varmints have not been a problem so far.  
Alfalfa can tolerate more moisture than grass.  Don't have enough poles so have been putting rows of bales on top of terraces.  Figure water runs away both directions, but it is only slightly better than other places.  In grass hay, the bottoms smell musty if you store them on the ground. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: mike_belben on September 10, 2021, 01:59:28 PM
I think we have a stretch of the punk phase before he starts acting like a man, but thank you Todd.  I am confident he will be able to feed his kids one way or another. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: moodnacreek on September 10, 2021, 02:47:24 PM
Quote from: mike_belben on September 10, 2021, 09:19:03 AM
Quote from: moodnacreek on September 10, 2021, 08:27:15 AM
Quote from: mike_belben on September 08, 2021, 09:52:18 PM
'fraid Its gonna be a while on that trip doug. I will be sure to stop and harrass you though.
It's long overdue.  If you stay down there any longer your gonna lose your Yankee accent.
luckily im from the part of the state that doesnt have one.  the not boston side.
Don't bet on that. [everybody knows I'm from New York]
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: mike_belben on September 10, 2021, 03:59:05 PM
if i had the brains to bet on it id have been a millionaire by now. Ive met thousands of people since bootcamp and "you dont have an accent" woulda been a winning lotto ticket.  as long as i dont say wicked, people usually cant guess where im from.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: moodnacreek on September 10, 2021, 08:55:29 PM
Well Mike even though i am always right I have never met you in person so just maybe I'm a little off. One thing is for sure; the natives know your not from there. It sounds like you could be from California, you know, where the Peterbuilt's came from.  
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: mike_belben on September 10, 2021, 10:30:45 PM
 wrong again doug, peterbilts come from heaven.   ;D



When i stop by ill put on a bahston accent just to mess with you.  ;)
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: moodnacreek on September 11, 2021, 08:30:48 AM
Your pretty good Mike.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: mike_belben on September 11, 2021, 08:50:35 AM
So when are you gonna start peeing on your sawdust pile to sell organic compost to the sustainable citiots with balcony farms?

:)
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: mike_belben on September 11, 2021, 01:51:12 PM
this guy is very under rated.  i suspect the current leadership that is making a lot of money teaching truly sustainable and regenerative everything, learned much of it from walt davis. 

Walt Davis Ranch :: Biological Capital (http://www.waltdavisranch.com/articles/biological-capital)
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: moodnacreek on September 11, 2021, 07:16:57 PM
Quote from: mike_belben on September 11, 2021, 08:50:35 AM
So when are you gonna start peeing on your sawdust pile to sell organic compost to the sustainable citiots with balcony farms?

:)The first part is done on a daily basis.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: Southside on September 11, 2021, 08:41:27 PM
Any special needs chicks get Blue Kote sprayed on their legs so I can easily monitor them. It wears off on the feet quickly and on the feathers it can attract pecking because it's something different as you observed, so the legs work well. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: moodnacreek on September 12, 2021, 10:06:58 AM
Quote from: Tacotodd on September 10, 2021, 12:08:09 PM
Mike, your boy sure is turning out to be a man right before our eyes! Good job on the training👍
Ditto on this post. The poor kid will get tired of having the old man around all the time but it is so much better than the other way. Some day he will realize how lucky he was.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: mike_belben on September 12, 2021, 10:55:37 AM
Some days thing occur that make me realize im the lucky one.  


All the best men i know had a mean old critical jerk in their life who probably loved them. So thats who i am for him.  Your biggest mean old crabby critical fan.  Now quit screwin off and get me the xyz. Hurry up!
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: mike_belben on September 14, 2021, 10:20:23 AM
The test patch had run its course through summer.  Summer emerged clover fizzles out, i will collect it and seed in cool season next time. I got a nice diverse variety of weeds in the area that rested after i crimped off an early spring food plot which went to maturity and seed by late april i guess give or take.


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/0912211436.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1631627943)



Id collected all the best cool season seed varieties i could before crimping it down with the roller then left it alone


Yesterday i used the roller again to trample the summer weed crop and plant cool season mix. Also expanded into the blackberries and toward the fence.  The new seed has many many cool season grasses in it so i expect to see this go more toward the establishment of a grass sod.  

There is no doubt that the top layer of soil is darkening in color as OM and fertility increases. It is also a softer profile before you hit that ultra compacted sand and then solid sandstone a few inches under that.  The tractor above is parked on bare sandstone slab. This was dozed off years back to flatten the slope when i stumped, and it was devoid of life for a year or so.  The trees i removed where only in maybe 10 inches of clay ontop rock. Pretty useless land from a crop standpoint but i think were gonna see pretty high grass production once i get it there.



(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/0912211444.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1631627946)



As you can see, the roller mimics the trampling of an extremely high stocking density.  What it lacks in manure and urine deposits is offset by not having to feed a herd the other 364.9 days of the year i guess. Not a bad way to start paddocks.  


I have a very diverse collection of warm season seed that has already finished, and real soon i will be collecting the stuff im waiting on now.. Crabgrass, big bluestem, johnsongrass, goosegrass, bahia, more barnyard grass as it comes in plus a few others i cant ID yet.  


Eager to see what the test patch swards look like as i go.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: moodnacreek on September 14, 2021, 12:50:22 PM
As I try to get rid of weeds, Mike grows them...                 Does that babota have one eye out?
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: mike_belben on September 14, 2021, 02:49:26 PM
Yeah, one eye missing and the other dont see worth a dang anyhow. Best to be home by dark when you get as old as this thing i guess 

;D
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: mike_belben on September 16, 2021, 02:53:19 PM
this is a spot that was crimper trampled a few months ago then left alone.  it has never grown like that before.


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/0915211422.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1631817722)


note that it is a mix of mostly wild clover and warm season grasses thatve not seeded out yet, when all the other warm season stuff in the yard has already dropped seed and gotten rank or is hardening them off right now. (which i collect every few days.)

  so crimping this spot mid summer extended the lush vegetative stage.  it would otherwise be a mature pile of seed heads by now, which is very low in nutrition.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: moodnacreek on September 17, 2021, 12:36:44 PM
Difference things grow latter in the summer . Behind the sawmill, that is mainly compacted sawdust, weeds come up in spring and early summer [if anything] and then grasses like now. You have to take this into consideration.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: mike_belben on September 17, 2021, 07:12:30 PM
ive gotten fairly fluent lately in cool season and warm season grasses. well.. there are hundreds, i can probably eyeball ID the most common 40 or so in my region at this point.

either way, ive owned that spot since 2012 and it never grew like that any time of year until it was trampled.  and theres a new grass blend coming up in it now that hasnt seeded yet, which makes it a very late blooming warm season grass compared to the others ive got.  that stuff isnt even in the boot yet  

Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: moodnacreek on September 17, 2021, 08:15:02 PM
Quote from: mike_belben on September 17, 2021, 07:12:30 PM
ive gotten fairly fluent lately in cool season and warm season grasses. well.. there are hundreds, i can probably eyeball ID the most common 40 or so in my region at this point.

either way, ive owned that spot since 2012 and it never grew like that any time of year until it was trampled.  and theres a new grass blend coming up in it now that hasnt seeded yet, which makes it a very late blooming warm season grass compared to the others ive got.  that stuff isnt even in the boot yet  
Well, good for you. You know I do respect knowledge and hard work. It is rare today to meet somebody who can recognize anything that grows and I'm ignorant in that respect myself except maybe trees. I would say it's foxtail that grows in the [dirty]sawdust this time of year.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: mike_belben on September 17, 2021, 10:10:34 PM
well, thank you doug. i guess troubles will learn ya a thing or two. 

 some health stuff is forcing the misses and i to go down yet another unplanned path, which requires that i be very knowledgeable about many characteristics of many plants and grasses and be able to establish, manage and time them all quite well.  on the bright side, its never been easier to teach yourself anything before in the history of mankind so ive got it pretty easy in that regard.  

foxtail type grasses have a single stalk seedhead sorta like a miniature marsh reed.  the one flavor i have here is among my latest bloomers.  it flowered already but hasnt hardened off seed yet.  i have collected hundreds and hundreds of seed heads this year from anywhere i could find them.    
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: mike_belben on September 22, 2021, 09:18:33 AM
A rainy cool spell has the foxtails starting to drop seed here.

Ive been reading and watching a whole bunch of information from dr elaine ingham lately. The soil food web lady.  Her and her husband are both super nerd soil biologists credited with figuring out how the microorganisms in plant root systems actually work to stay in balance and convert the nutrients available adundantly in all dirts- even the crappiest ones- ... into plant soluble forms.   

The cliffnotes are that compost is the answer to all plant growth, disease, fungal and pest problems that the manufacturer's cures have created.  Herds coming off the land and chemicals going on is the true environmental crisis of the last century, and the mass decline in health is surely correlated to the mass decline in correct mineral and nutrient content in our foods, leading us to have inexplicable cravings just like a ruminant.  

The plants arent getting the right blend of native resources anymore because weve depleted them.  Theyre full of synthetics we spread and spray now, and thus, so are we. 


Im not a scientist, but i know the lady is right.  All my gardening failures were cured -after the expensive canned cures all failed- by hot composting before i had any idea why it worked.   So its nice to start seeing whats going on in detail.  

Stop buying product and start learning the C:N ratios and turning interval to make rapid hot compost.  apply wherever you want vigorous growth without pest, disease or drought issues. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: newoodguy78 on September 26, 2021, 09:58:13 AM
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/40841/FBEF5451-9DDE-4476-B1FA-4B788C94FD4E.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1632664572)
 The neighbors barn of tobacco. Always enjoy the smell when it's curing.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: mike_belben on September 26, 2021, 02:43:17 PM
i havent seen one of those in a spell.  i almost fell off/through one in enfield shoveling the rotted roof with a guy i knew during a rain onto a big snow accumulation. it fell down on top one of my belongings later on anyway. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: newoodguy78 on September 27, 2021, 03:43:06 PM
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/40841/C38BE4E3-8997-4E0A-B620-87AA3B85C5EF.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1632771558)
 Disking down the summer cover crop,put the fall mix in soon 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: mike_belben on September 27, 2021, 04:46:21 PM
 smiley_sun
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: mike_belben on September 28, 2021, 09:24:41 AM
Whats the cover crop?  Looks like maybe johnson, sudan or maybe some species of panicum grass.. ? 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: newoodguy78 on September 28, 2021, 02:09:39 PM
That was a Sudangrass buckwheat mix about a 60/40 mix heavier on the Sudan put in at about 120#/acre
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: farmfromkansas on September 28, 2021, 09:57:06 PM

Guess I am qualified as an expert on this thread now, drove a silage truck today, and hauled 26 huge loads of ensilage from the cutter to the trench silo.  Man am I beat.  Rough roads, rough fields.  Think the guy just disced his ground and planted it. Hard on me and the truck.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: newoodguy78 on September 28, 2021, 10:05:48 PM
That many loads you must be hauling away from a self propelled chopper? How many trucks hauling?
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: Southside on September 28, 2021, 11:26:21 PM
How did the Buckwheat do with the competition?  Did it flower? How many days was it growing?  
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: newoodguy78 on September 29, 2021, 08:27:41 AM
The buckwheat did well, actually went to seed. That stand was about 55 days. It seemed like the Sudan grass might have pushed it to flower earlier than I've seen before.
 Added the buckwheat in hopes of it being easier to disk up and create a seedbed with one pass. I feel it worked out as planned. Trying out different "cocktails " so to speak. So far very pleased with the results. Waiting to figure out what the downsides are to all this cover cropping, at this point it's working very well.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: farmfromkansas on September 29, 2021, 09:25:25 AM
My neighbors have a huge JD cutter, forget the number on it, but it takes 12 rows, has gps so he can divide the field so the swaths come out even, and we used 3 trucks, although they have 6 if needed.  The idea is to keep the cutter running, and how far we have to drive is what determines how many trucks and drivers.  Last time I drove we used 5 trucks and round trip was 11 miles. They use army trucks that are stretched with huge boxes, silage looks like it is 8' deep in the box, and at least 20' long. Turning radius is not real sharp.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: Southside on September 29, 2021, 10:25:06 AM
Quote from: newoodguy78 on September 29, 2021, 08:27:41 AMWaiting to figure out what the downsides are to all this cover cropping, at this point it's working very well.


Better crop production, reduced weed pressure, increased soil organic matter content.  Oh wait - you're not the chemical and fertilizer salesman - sorry about that, never mind. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: mike_belben on September 29, 2021, 10:53:17 AM
So from what i have gathered from a sea of information sifting, is that the next improvement comes from being able to cover all of that dirt with cover crop grass rather than tilling it in.  This is where switching from a disk to a crimper comes in because the disc is exposing bare soil for the sun to bake dry and kill the wonderful microbial life that was in it, and because the soil disturbance interrupts the micorhizae that was in it and is the system by which plants with limited roots get nutrients from farther away than they could reach.  Its that white hairy fungal network that is under the duff of every product forest and throughout the humus layers of rotten logs. It is priceless and to be preserved, thats the heart of no-til.  Dont disturb the microbes.

With crimping or even better, mob grazed trampling, the shade above the soil creates a thatched hut for the soil microbiology to multiply and then make the actual improvements to the soil.  It is the microbes digesting the plant matter and mineral that make the nutrient available in plant soluble form without adding purchased and short term synthetic fertility.  If youre gonna buy fertility, BUY MANURE!  Or work out a deal with a mob grazer to put livestock on that gorgeous cover crop for a day or two.   The tractor and crimper stimulate a cattle mob but thats only half.  Manure is the 2nd part.  If you crimped and spread doo doo youd have the full circle.  But maybe you can get paid a few bucks for a grass fed finisher to eat that ripe crop instead and save yourself the labor and fuel. 

You will see gains from the cover cropping from increased organic matter into the soil.. but it is limited to the aerobic layer, the upper soft and oxygenated portion. the anaerobic region grows pathogenic rather than probiotic bacteria.  If the greens are entirely ontop they are all aerobic so probiotic bacteria, fungus, microbes, nematodes etc will be breaking down the green roof into plant soluble stuff.  Probiotic is anything that makes a plant required substance available.  The more shade on that dirt, the less the sun will leach the moisture and nuke the microbial activity.  


If you can leave the top layer thatched over the dirt and device a way to seed into the cover crop thatch, boom, youre there.

Youll get weed suppression, water retention, probiotic living organism habitat that creates pest and disease resistance, high fertility, high soil structure, balanced PH, lowered salinity, water permeability, deep oxygenation, no more runoff or erosion... Im sure theres more.  


My understanding is that pathogenic microbes and fungi are unable to digest healthy plant matter.  The plant must be sick from a mineral deficiency first.  If the plant is sick, there is food for pathogen and pest.  If not, there is none.  The bandaid is to purchase synthetic mineralization.  The cure is to provide conditions where aerobic microbes vastly outnumber anaerobic ones so that complete and natural mineralization happens all by itself.  

When bison roamed the plains we didnt have these issues in our plants animals or people.  Nature did not invent an animal that needed deworming and antibiotics, man created these all by himself.

Ken hamilton makes a claim that glyphosate creates the perfect conditions for clostridium botulinum (which is everywhere and is lethal in microscopic doses) to colonize soil, and that the rate of autism and cancers has gained with the rate of glyphosate cropping.  

Health issues in the family that the PHDs cant figure out has me digging really deep to put good food on the table.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: Southside on September 29, 2021, 11:02:37 AM
Like anything I find a balance between tillage of a cover crop and crimping of one work depending on the needs, conditions, and time of year.

In the spring I don't want to do any tillage here as the warm season weeds are my biggest challenge and organic matter consumption increases with increased soil temperature.  On the other hand I have 40 acres of ground to disc as soon as I move my big tractor there. That will get a cover crop of wheat, rye, and barley, then be crushed and planted into alfalfa in the spring. 

Around here fall tillage can help with water infiltration over the winter, as long as it doesn't create an erosion issue. 

Everyone went full hog on no till, and yes it has a lot of benefits. However in some cases I see ground that is as hard as concrete now as equipment has gotten heavier over the years. Water runs right off of that ground. All about balance and keeping the goal, not the procedure in focus. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: mike_belben on September 29, 2021, 11:07:38 AM
Sure, i do think adjusting the tool you use on the fly based on what the land is telling you is critical.  You arent gonna make a parking lot into a crop field very quickly without pithing off some mushrooms!  

Otoh continually tilling just because thats how great grandad did it.  Well.. Great grand dads generation helped us define dustbowl too so .. Maybe ask the soil what it wants!   ;D

I dont have the experience, my job here is just to read vast amounts of info and put up cliff notes for everyone, then report on my little trials.  What works i will scale up, what doesnt i will retire. Fix in a can hasnt worked yet.  Hot compost has so far.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: Nebraska on September 29, 2021, 11:36:23 AM
@Southside (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=24297) curious if you do or can do any fall/late season deep ripping to break up the hard pan? Rocky soil doesn't work so well.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: Southside on September 29, 2021, 12:11:38 PM
Absolutely, about every 5 years. Have  5 shank Tebben with a chisel foot that will absolutely shatter the compaction. Downside is it makes 300 horses groan in our heavy clay. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: beenthere on September 29, 2021, 02:45:53 PM
Quote from: farmfromkansas on September 29, 2021, 09:25:25 AM
My neighbors have a huge JD cutter, forget the number on it, but it takes 12 rows, has gps so he can divide the field so the swaths come out even, and we used 3 trucks, although they have 6 if needed.  The idea is to keep the cutter running, and how far we have to drive is what determines how many trucks and drivers.  Last time I drove we used 5 trucks and round trip was 11 miles. They use army trucks that are stretched with huge boxes, silage looks like it is 8' deep in the box, and at least 20' long. Turning radius is not real sharp.
ffk
Watch a farmer in NY who is chopping corn now and see the 12 row chopping head at minute 10 and a drone shot of opening up the field at minute 14. The two white trucks driven by his 18 and 20 yr old daughters followed by a 10 yr old son driving a dump wagon. Video shows some repair work needed to the chopper head before starting back up after the breakdown. Interesting farm operation with some 3000 milk cow dairy operation. Older son is driving the semi trailer being loaded with chopped corn. Good over-all view of corn chopping and bunk filling. Can see why you would be tired helping out. 
I Devalued the chopper head - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9IKGXqq_crE)
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: farmfromkansas on October 02, 2021, 08:18:11 PM
Very similar operation.  Same head, could not see the number on the chopper.  We were driving repurposed army trucks.  Think the ones we drive have higher sides, they have extensions made of screen, and they take those off to haul grain. Find it fun to drive occasionally, can't take it every day.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: beenthere on October 03, 2021, 01:23:04 AM
It is an 8700 chopper from this other video posted earlier.. about knives and corn kernel processor. 

Corn Crackers and Wet Lines - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meCjyqNz93w)
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: farmfromkansas on October 03, 2021, 10:35:55 AM
The neighbors install a kernel processor if folks want to pay for it, they complain about how much fuel it takes to run the thing.  The chopper takes about 300 gallons of fuel per day, it takes more when running the processor.  They have a trailer they use to fuel up when on jobs that take more than a day, amazing how much fuel it takes to chop a field, haul and pack it.Most jobs take less than a day, the last day I drove, we did 2 jobs. Folks around the neighborhood get to depending on these guys to put up their feed. I have hay equipment, so just bale all my feed.  Silage is expensive, and takes more equipment to feed it, along with fence line feed bunks.  You need a wagon or truck with a box that you can stir up silage with ground hay and grain.  They say it is more efficient use of your feed, but a lot more costly than just dumping a bale in a feeder, or unrolling your bales on grass.  I find that unrolling alfalfa on winter pasture works great for me, as the boss cows can't keep all the other cows out of the best feed. Even calves get a share of the alfalfa, and lots of times they eat the grass under the alfalfa as well, trying to get every leaf. They also leave cow pies out in the pasture, which helps replenish the soil in the pasture.  I like to harrow the grass that I fed on in the spring, which breaks up the cow pies, and moves any residue left from feeding, and seems to improve the grass.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: newoodguy78 on October 03, 2021, 10:58:39 AM
Those kernel processors do take extra power to run for sure especially if the corn is on the green side. The two row pull behind I ran had one. used to use a zip tie for setting the distance between the rolls. Nothing compared to the one you hauled from but always amazed me the volume of feed going through that space that fast. Be curious what the tolerance between the rolls on the KP in that big boy is.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: mike_belben on October 03, 2021, 09:09:42 PM
Unrolling is a very good practice.  It spreads your compaction, spreads precious manure and urine, all cows get fed and you get free seed.  


If your land has pitch, unroll at the top of the slope so rain can dispurse nutrient and seed even further. It cant go uphill if you unroll it in the bottoms. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: Southside on October 03, 2021, 09:31:49 PM
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34297/KIMG1423.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1633311091)
 Spent today here. Got it baled into 4x5's before the rain starts tomorrow. Almost done for the year, 40 or so acres to go, still have 120 ish to plant. 

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34297/KIMG1424.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1633311037)
 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: Nebraska on October 03, 2021, 09:35:49 PM
Big squares right?
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: Southside on October 03, 2021, 09:42:02 PM
No, upgraded to this. 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34297/KIMG1408.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1633311570)
 

After this happened a couple weeks ago. 


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34297/KIMG1382.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1633311645)
 

Been a challenging late summer/fall. On a good note that NH practically runs itself. Have a preservative kit coming for it too. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: newoodguy78 on October 03, 2021, 09:54:01 PM
That's big field to lay down, must be comfortable with the new baler.
Or you're trying to stay ahead of the proverbial ball that wants to roll over you :D
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: Southside on October 03, 2021, 10:10:47 PM
I think the ball is trying to back over me now.   :D  In a good windrow that new baler will pump out a bale every minute without hesitating at all, and that's without the roller wind guard doing much, so she still has more in her.  Laid it down with my Kuhn FC4000, 13' at a time.  Folks look at me funny when they see the 8640 in a hay field, then they try to keep up with her mowing at 15 acres an hour.  8)

I run a 12 wheel rake that has a kicker in the middle, so technically 13 wheels, the New Holland and that rake are getting married this winter, was thinking of mounting the rake ahead of the tractor but I think I will train the baler behind the rake instead.  Either way, one less pass around the field and be done in probably 60% of the time it takes now.  

Which probably means I will chase more ground, so no real time savings at the end of the day.... ::).  Dang cows are addicting.  

Mommas don't let your babies grow up to be cowboys....
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: newoodguy78 on October 03, 2021, 10:22:07 PM
True farmer, always thinking how they can get it done faster only to add more work when they figure it out  :D
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: Nebraska on October 04, 2021, 07:40:36 AM
Silage option, nice...that will be handy once the preservative kit comes in.  I wish my JD449 was a 459 with netwrap and a silage kit too.  Couldn't pass on the deal for the smaller one.. Mine wouldn't eat that big of a windrow..  You shouldn't  need a bigger tractor to get stuff done. ;)
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: Southside on October 04, 2021, 08:15:04 AM
Never had a net wrap baler before this one.  Will never go back to twine now.  Learned pretty quickly that loading 12,000 ft of net into a New Holland ain't for sissies, the rear storage JD system is definitely easier, and a buddy watching me make the first few bales laughed his butt off when I made the second bale as I had the monitor in the wrong mode.  Probably put 20 layers of net onto that bale while I sat there smashing buttons trying to make it stop.  Finally shut off the PTO and got the book back out.    

The dealer told me not to feather the clutch after making a bale and taking off at the start of a new one, just go.  I gave him the - don't think so look - gives me his cell phone number and says to call if I plug it, he will come dig it out.  Slowly I got brave enough to do just that, and sure enough, she just eats.  So now it's one beep at 52" of bale diameter to let you know to get ready, then the one at 59" to stop and let it wrap, 5 seconds later dump it and go again.  
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: welderskelter on October 04, 2021, 08:32:01 AM
I just finished hauling silage for a 10500 cow dairy. We put 3000 acres in one pile. The chopper was a 9900 John Deere taking 16 rows at a whack. Traveling about 6 miles an hour. We ran 24 hours aday till done. Big pile
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: mike_belben on October 04, 2021, 09:48:28 AM
Awesome jim.  Does the new baler have a spray tank?

Does the dairy run a manure lagoon or spray it out?
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: welderskelter on October 04, 2021, 03:08:34 PM
There are three lagoons I can see but I think there is more. The barn is 1500 feet long by 600 ft. wide. They are just building it. The cows are coming from Arizona in July. Next year they have contracted 6000 acres of corn silage from my boss.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: mike_belben on October 04, 2021, 04:02:01 PM
wow.  where on earth does one get the startup funding for that bet? 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: welderskelter on October 04, 2021, 04:26:31 PM
They already own 23 dairies in Mn. Arizona, California. All big but Mahnomen Minn. is the biggest I think.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: Southside on October 04, 2021, 09:36:33 PM
Mike - I ordered a preservative tank for it, won't do me any good until spring but it will give me an opportunity to make dry hay when it's too dry for baleage, but not enough good weather left to get it fully dry.  That's our issue here with alfalfa and heavy clover crops.  Many times when they are prime to cut there isn't enough dry weather to get it made right so the only option is baleage, which is fine for my own use, but pretty well no outside sales opportunity.  

That dairy company is in a different universe.  Welcome to the commodity world, Walmart milk, Amazon / Whole Foods, Piggly Wiggly, etc.  Crushes the cooperatives and family farm.  

Funny about the lagoons, my manure management is a shovel and a wheelbarrow, and honestly I don't know when the last time was I needed it.  That's the beauty of having cows on grass all the time, they go for a walk to get milked, even if it's only 100 yards that time they completely poop out before they get there.  Not to mention the lack of necessary bedding, hoof trimming, tail docking, etc.  They can keep that mega food factory.  I can call them and they will come, don't need a crowd gate to push them in.  
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: mike_belben on October 04, 2021, 11:11:57 PM
You may wanna have a look at what these guys are doing with bacterial innoculants for sopping wet baleage.  Maybe incorporate a tank and some spray jets into your hay train project.  

Salvage Through Fermentation (https://www.biomineralstechnologies.com/livestock/fermentation/salvage-through-fermentation)


I dont know what their magic sauce is precisely but i know it didnt take me long to make my own from household goods and rainwater.  Ken is on youtube also. Youd like his stance on glyphosate.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: newoodguy78 on October 08, 2021, 01:41:35 PM
Does anyone know of a test kit that can be used to test soil for checking N-P-K levels also potentially the ph? I know sending out soil samples is an option. Looking for something that maybe I can do and then compare the results.
The sales pitch from the fertilizer company to use more and more is getting old and expensive.
If it's necessary I get it but my gut tells me it's not.
The best results I've had improving ground and subsequently the crops and weed pressure is directly opposite of what I'm being told to do. The salesman and a few professionals we've had visit to try and advise us get real squirmy when I start asking the hard questions. Very much leads me to believe I'm on to something.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: beenthere on October 08, 2021, 02:25:48 PM
 soil test kit (https://www.amazon.com/MySoil-Soil-Provides-Complete-Nutrient-Recommendations/dp/B084TSNR79/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?crid=3BO4NEMDDA6J2&dchild=1&keywords=soil+test+kit+nitrogen%2C+phosphorous+and+potash&qid=1633717588&sprefix=Soil+test+kit%2Caps%2C253&sr=8-1-spons&psc=1&smid=A19D3S4DYYZLKK&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUEyTkNaVDRGOUlTMU0mZW5jcnlwdGVkSWQ9QTAyNzc2NTgyUkZLV0U0U09RRTYxJmVuY3J5cHRlZEFkSWQ9QTA1NzQ1Mjk0Mkw3N1NUVFU1UEwmd2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9hdGYmYWN0aW9uPWNsaWNrUmVkaXJlY3QmZG9Ob3RMb2dDbGljaz10cnVl)
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: mike_belben on October 08, 2021, 02:28:23 PM
Im not a salesman or a biologist but i went from ground that was rock hard, id literally use a milwaukee drill if i had to dig by hand.  Was good for making glass and pottery.  It has turned to 3 inches minimum of fluffy black soil in 2 years, and thats where i filled my pond in with concrete demo, rebar and woodchips!   It is downstream from my compost pile and the structure and growth is unlike any other spot on the property because of the biology thats always getting washed in.  This pig is fluffing up huge sod clumps like nothing in it but it was hard as a rock before. 


You gotta be composting, it is entirely about aerobic microbial activity.  I dont think a soil test will do anything but keep you a slave to conventional. 


If you wanna run a test of your own, pick your worst spot and stake it off, take pictures of a core sample etc. Then start putting all the leaves, sawdust, grass, food scraps and manure on it that you possibly can.  I would spray with manure and/or pile on some punky spongey hardwood to innoculate.  This is gonna sound stupid but expired yogurt and dairy products have an abundance of the right bacteria to get your soil biology firing back up.  Youll know you got it when that spot has grass to your knees and the rest is ankle high. 


I did a soil test once and it may as well have said drink more ovaltine. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: newoodguy78 on October 08, 2021, 02:57:08 PM
@beenthere (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=180) Thank you I'll look into that one 
Mike I agree with you on many points on this and have seen the same results with processes I'm doing just in a slightly different manner. I took a piece of essentially dead worthless soil and within a season and a half it's producing some of the best product employees that have been here almost 20 years have ever seen.
Where the shoe starts to pinch is when you look at the scale I need to do it on. I'm dealing with over 80 acres of ground specifically for vegetable production. 3 years ago there was 2 full time people in the field on tractors most everyday through the season and one working nights and weekends wrenching on the stuff they stoved up. Now except for the transplanting and some of the spraying it's just me.
 The whole time I need to keep in mind there's multiple peoples paychecks involved with decisions the boss and I make. Something I take very seriously and quite honestly stresses me out sometimes.
The reason I'm looking for the independent test is dead opposite of trying to keep me a slave to conventional processes. I want to know exactly what I'm dealing with and looking at. All plants require those things to grow and produce. 

I've been doing some major experiments with cover crops to boost nitrogen levels for one ,being able to track those results would help reduce the amount of inputs  coming in on trucks at ever rising rates.
I aim to grow the best sweet corn around on very few if any inputs as far as fertilizer. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: mike_belben on October 08, 2021, 04:23:35 PM
Well there is definitely a strong dispute out there.. One side says just buy more NPK.  

The other side says (if im remembering this right) ammonium nitrate isnt plant soluble until xyz microbes convert it, and that soil biology is killed off by the dessicant nature of synthetic fertilizers.  I really dont know how it works.  

I think to make a large scale change at once will require radical alterations, and it might be easier choosing the worst performing segments of the land at a time to take out of rotation and heavily ammend then leave fallow for a period. 


You might wanna call ken hamilton at bio mineral technologies and get a price per acre for his remedial bacteria elixir and see how it compares to npk.. Maybe its cost competitive enough to give it a try. NPK keeps rising.  If the organic voodoo is real theres money to be made switching sooner than later 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: newoodguy78 on October 08, 2021, 04:47:57 PM
That's what we've done with some of the worst pieces is tried cover crop and other organic practices the results have been nothing but success. I absolutely don't want to simply buy more NPK, everything I've seen so far tells me that's the wrong move.
I know next to nothing about soil biology, however it's my understanding higher organic matter percentages help bind nutrients in the soil so plants can use them easier and faster. I've seen the results in increasing OM content already and wil continue working on improving them , my next goal is increasing nitrogen levels naturally via cover crops,what compost I can produce and manure that can be scrounged. That much less needing to be bought in.
The very premise of what commercial farming and what we're trying to do here is unnatural in my opinion....trying to produce a mono crop. They simply don't exist in nature on their own. Just my opinion but I feel the closer we work with nature versus against it the better off this place will be. Massive slugs of NPK applied once or twice a year aren't natural.
By no means was my earlier post meant to be belittling of what you're accomplishing, quite the contrary. It's simply hard to be as intensive as you have been around here, there's simply not time.
Keep up the good work 👍
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: Southside on October 08, 2021, 05:22:10 PM
See if you can find Jessica Smith or Daniel Kline. My old emails from them come from Grow Food Nation. They are into produce production and think along our lines. I attended a seminar they put on a few years ago and quite a few years back one of their associates helped me in Maine with micro nutrients, soil health, etc, so they are around. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: Southside on October 08, 2021, 05:53:00 PM
Could you get some ruminants to run on the ground from late fall until spring? That Sorghum crop followed by a winter rye and some hay would do well and recycle nutrients.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: newoodguy78 on October 08, 2021, 08:04:06 PM
I'll try to find those folks. 
The ruminant idea is the ideal situation specifically the bovine variety in my opinion. With proper planning and planting of things feeding 10-12 animals on crops I'm currently bushhogging with minimal supplemental feeding is not out of the question.
I'm not quite ready to cross that bridge with the boss yet, might just get her ponytail sticking out straight  ;D.
If it were my property and made the final decision they'd already be here ;)
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: Southside on October 08, 2021, 09:52:55 PM
If they aren't feeding a calf or going into the parlor each day a couple hours on the green forage and then the rest from some good hay would do just fine, that would become additional manure and nutrients for the soil and stretch out your winter cover crop feeding.  Basically creep feed them across the field as you go advancing a hot wire each day.  The good thing is you could pick up weanlings cheap in the fall and sell them higher in the spring.  

I would stay away from steers though, they are the hardest class to make gain on.  Heifers would be a great fit.  
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: mike_belben on October 08, 2021, 10:50:41 PM
Quote from: newoodguy78 on October 08, 2021, 04:47:57 PM

(...)By no means was my earlier post meant to be belittling of what you're accomplishing (...)
No worries brotato what im doing is smaller than little!   Just a homeschool sorta thing really. 
I know a guy with a decent amount of cows in ludlow that may be interested in grazing it if you get a fence.  
Once upon a time argentina was known for the worlds best grass fed steak.  I guess they ran crops a few years then cattle a few years and rotated like that.
had excellent pasture.   The story goes that America being their biggest customer and always wanting more of a good thing, we convinced them to feed grain and ruined a good thing.  No idea if its true, argentina is a bit far for me to fact check. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: newoodguy78 on October 08, 2021, 10:59:04 PM
This is something that really needs to be considered. Never really considered grazing them through the winter months. Have thought a fair amount about feeding a bunch through the winter, moving the feeder around the field as a manure spreader so to speak.
What do you feel would be the ideal mix of forage to plant would be?
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: mike_belben on October 08, 2021, 11:06:21 PM
Kale, forage radish, rutabega, turnips..  Theyll all put out high protein greens then leave a root bulb to dig up for winter. I think chicory might too.  Thats a lot of trampling and soil disturbance you dont have to pay for. 

Winter wheat and crimson clover did good for me thru winter also.   

Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: Southside on October 08, 2021, 11:29:06 PM
I would mix spring oats, Abruzzi Rye, Australian Winter Peas, forage raddish, together, plant it in late August, by November it's well established and ready to graze. You already know what Sorghum and Buckwheat will do and that would get you through until November. 

Grass hay fed on a hay wagon moving across the fields daily will spread manure and reduce waste and pugging. Strip graze a new green section each day or two, enough for 3 to 4 hours, and hay for the balance. A 500 lb weanling needs about 17 lbs of dry matter intake per day, so a 700 lb round bale will feed 40 head a day by itself. Double that when strip grazing the forage. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: newoodguy78 on October 09, 2021, 05:08:04 AM
This definitely has my wheels turning.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: farmfromkansas on October 09, 2021, 08:14:51 PM
We had a fire a couple days ago too, baler had a bearing go out and started a small fire, which soon became a big fire.  Luckily we are only a little more than a mile from the fire department, and they came out and stopped it from getting to the neighbor's property. Also lucky the baler had just been cleaned out, and did not have a lot of hay buildup inside.  And we had a fire extinguisher. Still lost a good 20 acres of bales and windrows.  My insurance agent said she would check to see if I have fire coverage on my policy.  It did not cover theft of my stuff. We tore the baler apart that evening and got it put back together yesterday by 4:30, and went to do a little more baling.  Finished up this morning. I was driving the tractor with the rake, and tried to rake the fire out when it was small, but did not succeed.  When the fire truck first got there and sprayed the fire, he moved down the line and the fire jumped right back up.  Didn't get it under control till they had 3 trucks spraying it down, and a few guys with rakes putting the windrows out.  We had to stay and make 2 bales burn up before we dared leave.  5x6 round bales.
'
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: mike_belben on October 09, 2021, 08:49:37 PM
 :-\man that sucks, sorry to hear.  Glad no one injured though
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: Southside on October 09, 2021, 09:03:32 PM
They sure take off fast.  Glad to hear you got the baler back up and running.  Frame members on mine were bowed from the heat, no fixing that.  
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: farmfromkansas on October 09, 2021, 09:51:13 PM
Thinking about buying some boxes of donuts and taking them to the next meeting the fire department has.  Could have been a LOT worse.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: mike_belben on October 09, 2021, 11:21:18 PM
Turned the garden today to plant fall greens soon.  Pretty good idea of what i started with vs where ive gotten to.  


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/1009211519-1.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1633835718)



The soft black stuff goes down maybe 10 inches now. That seems to be the promise of aerobic microbial activity. The sandy yellow clay is rock hard when it isnt saturated. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: moodnacreek on October 10, 2021, 09:12:23 AM
We sure don't have that dirt here. Very little sand, too much clay often with large stone or mixed with gravel. North of here you start to see some sand and pine. What kind of trees like your soil? Seems like you have all hardwoods. Some parts of Tenn. where noted for e.r.c. growth. Here that would be lime stone ridges mostly. To improve worn out soil I can only vision manure and plowing under. No education. It's hard when you know everything :D
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: Roxie on October 10, 2021, 09:22:25 AM
We've got your limestone base and ERC up here in such quantity, that less than a mile from me is a section called the Barrens where nothing but ERC grows. It also produces the most beautiful green boulders.

Don't quote me on this because I'm no expert but I have read that this type of limestone shelf was previously ocean front property.

Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: mike_belben on October 10, 2021, 09:51:53 AM
Im no geologist but ive hauled and stacked enough sandstone to be curious and would guess youre correct roxie.  Theres a lot of sandstone quarries around montrose PA.  Lot of the banks along 81 have smooth stone sheet slopes.   Those sandstones always start flat like lakebeds when the grains of sand, quartz and silica that flow in downpours and mudslides fill in holes as they settle out where waters slow. Sorta like gold panning.   They harden into flat sheets and the sheet thickness tells the size of the storm event.   For those huge flat sheets to be intact and at a 45° pitch means one end somehow got many many feet higher than sea level because its impossible for the sand granules to stop on a slope like that in a downpour. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: mike_belben on October 10, 2021, 10:16:44 AM
Doug my immediate area is predominant hardwood, white and various red oaks, hickories, red maple, black gum, dogwood, sourwood, beech, yellow poplar, a touch of locust walnut cherry on some sites but mine doesnt support those.  Ive seen a swamp sycamore and maybe a few ash but very rare.  I could maybe grow virginia pine in the woods if i kept it in full sun (same with cherry) but i really cant grow erc.  One ERC sapling gets started and becomes a favorite buck rub as soon as its chest high.


Our entire plateau is a few thousand feet of sandstone.  The eastern half more sandstone, the western rim turns to limestone.  Our sand is called "pennsylvanian era" in geology talk.  The clay is orangey from iron i guess.  Lots of areas are so rocky they only grow a poor wild trash pine. If you have oaks youve got atleast a foot of clay based dirt and organic overburden sitting ontop the thousands of feet of solid rock.  From monterey to livingston on the western rim is good conditions for ERC and little else.  Lots of limestone surface boulder with cedar poking out.  Be hell to harvest it. 


We really dont have pebbly gravels except in the gulches and gorges where water beat stones round, and it is sold often.   Our driveway gravels come from rogers group or vulcan materials cutting off the sides of limestone mountains and crushing/screening.  Somehow one of the quarry operators got sandstone to pass the engineering test for a building gravel so now all the quarry tailings, trimmings and rubble is crushed and screened for driveways too but its not near as durable as limestone.. Ignorance makes the price the same now, sandstone was your cheap logging or farm road material prior to certification.  

With your type of soil i wouldnt bother turning it.  I would build new dirt on top of it.  Get all the woodchip, bark, grass, landscaper leaves, rotten hay, straw and free clay you can have delivered.  Thats the bug food.   Now toss on some punky spongey oak debris and  hose it down in manure. Theres your innoculant. Microbes and bacteria.  Keep them happy and they will make dirt out of that layer in a year. Never see the gravels again. You could do this on a basketball court.  

Every so often let it go completely fallow and grow any weeds shrubs or sapplings it wants.  They are bringing the missing ground minerals up to the surface.  Chip/grind that growth and turn it back in before winter.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: moodnacreek on October 10, 2021, 09:11:57 PM
Well Mike I'm really glad you are interested in soil, ignored by thousands. I wasted a lot of compost from sawdust and bark. It's not that I don't know any better, it's that i can't do it all. We raised the kids on wild game and the garden. We used to trap and fish and of course I have sawed lumber and built with it for quite some time. I plowed the garden this spring after spreading manure and black dirt from the same. We had many large tomatoes, 1 was 2 lbs. 8 oz. and perfect inside. The corn did good also and is not done yet.  Good for you building up the soil on you land. It is what a man should be doing.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: mike_belben on October 10, 2021, 11:42:00 PM
Thanks doug, i appreciate it.  Ive never been able to grow a tomato beyond the size of a tennis ball and i think i figured out why today.  My plants were still producing golf ball cherry tomatoes but only good enough for chicken feed so i ripped them out to turn the knee high wild grass and weed cover crop in.  

The middle of all my mater stalks was brown and gooey from a bacterial wilt. I aim to beat it without chemicals, which will validate or invalidate a lot of what im reading -the sciency people are split on the matter.  We'll see which side i believe.

They say history repeats itself.  My kids should be alive to nearly the 2100s. Theres a plethora of chances for hard times between now and then so the idea here is lets learn to get by with what we got. Food is priceless in a famine.  
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: Southside on October 11, 2021, 08:55:37 PM
Thought of this thread when I was checking cows today.  Right now I have them in an area that a few years ago was nothing more than green briars, leaf litter, and ground soft enough that you better be careful because you were going to sink a boot several times walking across it.  It needs some work on the timber side, but time has not allowed that to happen yet.  Mostly stunted Maple, some Sycamore, and a few dead ash.  Hard to believe it looking at them but according to some historical aerial photos I have researched these trees are at least 60 years old.  It is low ground, with a creek that runs through it, approximately 1500 acres of drainage above it, so not a tremendous amount.  The top soil is measured in feet here, mostly because it belonged to someone else in the past and has migrated to my land over time. After one storm I found a few new sand beaches, some were 150' long, 30' wide, and 3' deep.  Not much opening in the canopy as you can see here.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34297/KIMG1454~0.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1634000196)


So a few years ago the ground was green briars and years of leaf litter, some green sprigs of forage here and there, but not much at all.  I have about 20 acres in this bottom and used it at first for shade for the cows when they were rotating through other fields.  They did stomp around, eat the poison ivy and briars, and little forage that was there, but mostly they just smashed the leaves into the soil and exposed the dirt to the sunlight.  I have never dropped a single seed in this area, not an ounce of lime or fertilizer.  This is what it looks like today.  

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34297/KIMG1447.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1634000474)


The hoof action allowed the existing seed bank to germinate what was there, the little bit of sun getting through the canopy was enough to allow the soil microbes to transition to a forage growing environment, and the resulting root masses firmed up the soil to the point where neither I nor the cows break through the surface.  Being low and wet it's sub irrigated as a result, has tons of humus in the soil to retain moisture and keep the ground from getting too hot in the middle of the summer.  

I am getting over 300 cows days per acre now, grazing every 45-60 days. The plan was to incorporate some Reed Canary Grass seed in this fall but the drought in the mid west means no seed. But for middle of October I am pretty happy with this free forage.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34297/KIMG1451.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1634000906)
 

They eat it like spaghetti.


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34297/KIMG1453.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1634000986)
 

They also strip off the shrubs and other lower leaves that will keep coming back, so it's a win win.


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34297/KIMG1459.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1634001079)
 

That is a perfect pie, so the nutrition is spot on.


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34297/KIMG1461.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1634001142)
 

Best part is for tax purposes this is considered "un-usable ground". Guess because I can't loose money on it growing soybeans.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: mike_belben on October 12, 2021, 03:03:47 PM
I am convinced the creator designed this planet for roaming flocks and herds, and removing them is the start of "unsustainable"

 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: Wudman on October 12, 2021, 05:03:43 PM
@southside I do believe that is Japanese Stiltgrass that your cows are munching on.  Glad that is a good forage.  You will have plenty of it in the lowground that has been opened up.  I had an auditor point it out to me during my last audit.  It looks very similar to smartweed and will get a little seed head that looks like crabgrass.  I've noticed it everywhere in my travels since it was pointed out.  

Wud
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: mike_belben on October 12, 2021, 05:12:30 PM
in late 2017 i strip mined this low spot for clay to build a useable pad up above on the slope i own.  i went down nearly to bedrock and built a small pond because this draw has seasonal water flow and isnt useful for much else. the pond continually leaked and i was about to dive into the mudhole every time i couldnt find a kid, so i filled it in with woodchips and concrete demo.  i mean a lot of demo.  just enough dirt to cover the concrete and rebar.


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/1010211618.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1634065835)


4 years later it has plenty of young, healthy topsoil and lush vegetation with pretty good roots.  no matter how much of a torrent comes through here it doesnt rut up like other grassy spots would. id say it has recovered pretty well, and i now understand a lot more about the dynamics of lowland site index.  im no longer too concerned about the omg crisis of topsoil loss.  it is easily rebuilt, is my personal finding.

this is the same spot where the pond was, now the most level patch i own. i have crimped this twice i think, and its grown in thicker and lusher each time.  i have not mowed or prevented seedhead in any way.  the slope drops down as the yard comes to a point with the fence and the high ground to the right,  you can see 5ft high late warm season grass just past that tree, hiding the small sediment collection pond that is just to the second tree dead center in the pic.


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/1011211243.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1634065733)


we had a doozy of a rain event a few weeks ago where i was able to prove that my drainage ditching and 2 sequential erosion control micro ponds are functioning correctly so as not to lose any dirt from anything but an extended hurricane.  this spot gets excellent mid to late day sun and behind me, "upstream" is where i compost the leaves since the water flow naturally washes them in.


well, i decided to turn it under and start improving it for the coming summer, see if i can get away from the fusarium on the other side of the yard or not. im thinking clover but not entirely decided yet.  


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/1011211757a.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1634066003)




ive had lots of 2wd garden tractors.  none can compare to a properly weighted king quad 300 with good rubber, not even close.  this has super low and 4 wheel complete lock, air cooling is its only real crutch, fans are on the way.  ive got about $1500 in the quad now and it can pull like a 4wd tractor or zip 30mph down the street with the shift of a lever.  only thing they dont have is a PTO.  

that said, you plow guys can see its not cutting right.  the plow share is too centered behind the machine. so say im travelling north. when i put the tires in the first furrow, im cutting a new independent furrow that is too far to the west. instead of just cutting a little more of the first furrows western bank and kicking it to the east and filling in right behind the passenger tire, i am instead starting a whole new separate furrow with a 6 to 10 inch strip of grass between the two.  the second furrows spoils are being flung up ontop the grass strip above the original grade height, not thrown into and filling in the first furrow like it should.

so under each of those peaks, is a foot wide strip of ground that hasnt been turned over. and i just cant get the blade to get under the hard ground, itll track into a soft furrow everytime unless i crosscut the whole thing again which i wont bother with. i will add compost and microbes and let them break up the compaction between each row through the winter.  i surfed on a a chisel plow while boy pulled me over the tops to knock them down but its a mess, that just grabbed soddy turf clumps and brought them to the edge.  i will compost those over the winter too, and spread it back on in spring when its soft and loose.




i need to make another mount with a lot more offset to get the furrow closer to the passenger tire track.  keep in mind this is sleeve hitch and its drifts around at the pivot, trailing side to side, its not a 3 point that stays locked behind the machine so if it encounters a root or hard patch its gonna scooch off track. gotta limit the expectations a bit.

the other issue was clogging. lots of clogging.


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/1011211625.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1634066186)


i think its 1- a toy plow with a toy coulter that hardly cuts a sod line ahead of the share, 2- no way to adjust the coulter low enough and still have clearance, or enough weight for a deep coulter cut unless boy skis on the back of it, which he loves, and 3- the share and moldboard was all rusty which doesnt flow spoils well at all. dirt sticks then stops up the works. so i had boy wirebrushing for a while then i polished it up with a flapdisk and he oiled.  i also recut the edge on the share to a razor. that did cut a lot better


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/1011211453.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1634066244)



(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/1011211647.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1634066077)


no more stuck dirt all day.  i eventually just took the coulter off, it created more problems than it solved.

but still the offset is an issue.  i cut some off my drawbar brackets to allow offsetting toward the passenger side as far as i could and double pinning it to be rigid jointed to the drawbar.  better but its still not perfect. need to make another drawbar where that square tube sticks out to the sides like a universal tool bar.


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/1011211648.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1634066087)



i do have a real coulter from something else i made way back and it will slip into the brinley frames so i will give that a try next year, and also fab a trash board for over the top of the mold board.  the quad can pull very fast compared to a tractor and really fling some stuff. a trash board will help ensure its turned under better i think.

 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/1011211711.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1634065999)



i have a heavy cat 1 single bottom trip plow and some other attachments i traded to my brother that i may buy back if he wants to part with them. that is if turning over proves to be a wise choice.  the topsoil is less than 4 years old and was soft down to about 3 or 4 inches where i hit a black hardpan, i am crediting that softness to microbial action. im gonna work in a lot more organic matter and microbes and see what happens to that hardpan subsoil a year from now. im expecting it to break up and continually gain fertility.

granted i know this is all tiny scale, but a wise man once said invest your time before your money.  i think this is the sort of thing he meant.  figure out how stuff really works before you throw your 401k at it.  im convinced national sickness is absolutely related to our soil condition and food choices.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: Southside on October 12, 2021, 05:58:59 PM
@Wudman (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=624) according to Google that is Japanese Silt Grass, however just for giggles I also tried the last image I posted above.  The screenshot won't post but it labeled the last photo as being a "Texas Pocket Gopher". 

Don't want to know what them Texas boys walk around with all day long.  :D
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain and Forage Thread
Post by: Wudman on October 12, 2021, 06:34:32 PM
Quote from: Southside on October 12, 2021, 05:58:59 PM
according to Google that is Japanese Silt Grass, however just for giggles I also tried the last image I posted above.  The screenshot won't post but it labeled the last photo as being a "Texas Pocket Gopher".

Don't want to know what them Texas boys walk around with all day long.  :D
They are just carrying a little fertilizer with them as they go! ;D ;D
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: mike_belben on October 15, 2021, 12:52:33 PM
what kinda clover would you guys plant for an overwinter cover crop ?  i may still have chickens or end up with more pigs by then to feed it to, as a secondary consideration.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: newoodguy78 on October 15, 2021, 01:07:20 PM
I went with red clover, not saying it's right but it's in the ground and growing.
Curious on input as far as how big it needs to be before the fear of getting killed by frost is
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: Southside on October 15, 2021, 01:38:06 PM
Red should be a perinnial and won't winter kill. For a southern cover crop I would plant Crimson.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: Roxie on October 15, 2021, 04:09:51 PM
Crimson and clover over and over 


Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: mike_belben on October 17, 2021, 12:14:28 PM
Biology and Benefits (https://www.biomineralstechnologies.com/farm-solutions/composting/biology-and-benefits)

these two videos are really good and summarize pretty well what im trying to get a handle on. the more i research (particularly with family health issues going on at home) the more i come to conclude that "science" is not all knowing, and is not in consensus.  there are many still unknowns, not understood's, conflicting results, and disputed's.  so i read both sides then try to dabble in and observe my own experiments and see what happens, figure out which side of any dispute to believe in based on those results.  if i cant verify it myself i am slow to believe in it anymore. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: Nebraska on October 18, 2021, 08:31:50 AM
@Southside (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=24297)  I have an abundance of Reed Canary grass you may have all you want. I cannot effectively graze it.  Not a favorite. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: Southside on October 18, 2021, 08:41:28 AM
What don't you like about it?
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: newoodguy78 on October 18, 2021, 10:32:02 AM
 :P
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: SwampDonkey on October 19, 2021, 02:37:00 PM
Good composted manure, other broken down compost, composted peat and lime will sure help the ground. Keep the wood ashes out if your growing root crops or it will be the most scabby mess you've ever seen and the soil will get harder. The old garden here was run out from neglect, now got up to 8 lb squash and zucchini sized cukes, peppers and tomatoes by the barrel on a 25 x 25 ft plot along with three 4 x 8' framed beds. Shame all the waste, but 2 people can only eat so much and preserve so much and I don't run 'meals on wheels' pedalling veg. that nobody asked for. ;D

Bedrock here is calcareous shales, it was definitely under the ocean once and the elevation here is not very high. The prairies are a lot higher up than here. There are area with granite knobs glaciers even carried them here on top of the ground and others full of sandstone to the south from the Pennsylvanian era. There is even a subterranean river under the main river to the south where there is a earthquake fault line near there. And the Grand Pass down there never freezes in winter by Currie Mountain. ;)
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: SwampDonkey on October 19, 2021, 02:39:45 PM
Quote from: mike_belben on October 17, 2021, 12:14:28 PM
the more i come to conclude that "science" is not all knowing, and is not in consensus.  there are many still unknowns, not understood's, conflicting results, and disputed's.  
Well there is science then there is anecdotes to. :D
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: mike_belben on October 21, 2021, 10:09:45 PM
Think im getting closer to a frost risk for crimson clover and decided to get some winter wheat and austrian winter peas just in case today.  I guess ill mix em all up, broadcast and run em in with the tires.  Thoughts?

Will probably chop it all up for chicken feed in the spring.  They can rake through the wheat straw and it should become bedding before composting into the ground.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: Southside on October 21, 2021, 10:13:13 PM
They will all survive frost.  Will wilt at some point and if they are not big enough when it gets hard frost may die back to the ground but the crown will come back when things begin to warm up again.  
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: mike_belben on October 22, 2021, 04:46:29 PM
crimson clover ? Sustainable Market Farming (https://www.sustainablemarketfarming.com/tag/crimson-clover/)

This lady runs an informative cover crop site i dont want to lose.  

I put 2 garden beds into a mix of winter wheat, crimson clover and austrian winter pea.  then laid out my other bed in 10 rows of brassicas and overseeded the top of the whole thing in crimson clover.

  The idea is that i will let it all grow up together and step on the clover in between the rows.. Thinning everything out to the chickens.  I just dont want to go into winter with a bunch of bare soil on a hill. It rains here all winter. Dont care if the clover just gets trampled, thats mostly what its for.  Will see how that goes. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: newoodguy78 on October 22, 2021, 09:11:14 PM
White clover planted on the the walkways in the spring is something to remember 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: mike_belben on October 24, 2021, 10:47:39 PM


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/1024211753.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1635129099)


I built a spraybar using the smallest jets on the shelf because of the small pump, thinking it may not have the snot- but seems okay on test run today.  Doesnt quite get full coverage between the stripes but if i lift the bar much higher to increase coverage,  the ground isnt getting wet enough at the slowest pace i can manage.  

You think bigger jets will allow running faster at higher elevation the way my logic is telling me it will?  Im only spraying compost tea to help innoculate seed and increase soil microbial life.


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/1024211749.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1635130007)
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: Southside on October 24, 2021, 10:51:35 PM
That should work very well for you.  A friend brought back an old, runout farm doing exactly that.  
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: mike_belben on October 25, 2021, 12:16:55 AM
Thanks jim, thats encouraging.  Any idea what his brew procedure was?
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: Southside on October 25, 2021, 07:54:12 AM
I will ask him
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: Old Greenhorn on October 25, 2021, 09:04:56 AM
Mike, maybe something like this would give the flow you need?

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/52103/DSCF1172.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1550875219)
 

It moves a lot of water/fluid if you want. I generally run the gas pump on idle when spraying, but you could probably set it to just gravity feed once it starts flowing. It is supplied by 2 55 gallon barrels in the back and a 20GPM gas pump.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/52103/DSCF1170.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1550875295)
 

If I crank it up, it can dig little trenches in the ground as I drive, but I will run through all the fluid in just a couple of minutes. Sprays about 8' wide if I have the bars set level. The pumping is set up so I can back up to a pond and draft water to fill the barrels, then swatch the valves over to spray it back out through the front.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: mike_belben on October 25, 2021, 09:25:30 AM
I could buy a lot of finished produce at the earthiest crunchiest of stores for what thatd cost in after covid dollars!  Nice work, you werent playing around with that thing. Problem is itd blow away my seed and bare soil.

Im pretty happy with what ive got and only about $8 or so for a 4 pack of jets.  Will try a few sizes up next trip to town
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: Nebraska on October 26, 2021, 10:19:46 AM
How about drilling a tiny hole between the jets to fill in the gaps. Can always dribble a little weld to seal if they don't work.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: mike_belben on October 26, 2021, 10:50:25 AM
itd be like a leaky pressure regulator in hydraulics, causing bypass.  all the flow would go out the holes instead of through the tiny spray nozzles because there is a lower resistance option.  a short circuit in electrons. it takes a good ten seconds of pump running for them to purge air and begin to get the pressure rise for spraying. 


i can live with a little gap just fine, im not doing anything critical.  i got the tank, pump and wand at rural king for $60 last year.  for $325 you can get the one with the super flimsy fold out spray boom with fixed height and jets every 18 inches or so.  mine are at 12 with height adjust so what ive got sure aint bad compared to whats out there for sale.  plus ive still got my wand, they have wand or bar but not both. 

id like to see what bigger nozzles will do to the fan width and consumption rate anyway just for SNGs.  help me know how to estimate product volume if i ever do a job with it. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: mike_belben on October 26, 2021, 10:35:43 PM
Any of you guys good at soil sample interpretation?


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/1635302047565.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1635302013)
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: Southside on October 26, 2021, 10:41:46 PM
What do you want to grow?  Your soil is quite alkali which makes me think either the organic matter is not fully decomposed ie - it's a peat type of soil, it's a limestone based soil, or you limed the tar out of it.  The potassium is a bit odd too without knowing the history of the dirt.  
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: newoodguy78 on October 26, 2021, 11:19:19 PM
I like the organic matter content , shooting for that or higher here. I'm curious about the ph level 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: wisconsitom on October 27, 2021, 08:45:09 AM
Yes, that's a very high organic component.  pH is a bit above neutral, so yes, on the alkaline or "basic" side.

I wonder if a lot of material burned on this ground previously.  How else to account for super-high potash?

Soils have something called "buffering capacity".  Without going all technical, what this means as a practical consideration is that attempts to modify soil pH can be frustrating.  For your example, soil sulfur is called for, to gradually lower that pH, but this and other materials used for the purpose only can go so far.  In time, the surrounding soil "buffers" back to pretty close to what it was originally.

You can repeat-apply sulfur without much concern for screwing anything up.  The material comes in prills, is slowly worked over by soil bacteria, and the end result is sulfuric acid.  But as I say, the cations (calcium, magnesium, potassium) in the soil immediately fight back at this adjustment.

I've only ever found soil sulfur at farmer's co-ops.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: mike_belben on October 27, 2021, 09:53:51 AM
i kinda didnt tell the backstory on that on purpose and im glad you guys picked it out, good eye tom.  fire was a big part.  im still learning how to comprehend all the components of a sample report.  


i had it in my mind a year or so ago to try ammending the wild blueberries and see if i could get a real fruit on them.  theyre here and established, they spread on their own in the regen understory once the brush is about chest high.  theyre hardy, the flavor is superb.. but the fruit is puny.  i figured i will find a way to bump it up a notch, and started trying to blend up a soil improver from the various stuff on site.  lots of fill dirt has come here from a variety of sources, plus tree service grindings and chipped trees and so on.  i never stop composting.

well, one component that i took a half dozen loads of as a favor for the guy who hauls me all the fill, was charcoal plant cleanouts.  and its got everything in it. gasifier char, wood chip, bark, sand, gravely stuff, glassy frothy wierd stuff that kinda looks like coral, im sure its just a variety of dirt, rock and sand that hits a char furnace and turns into something new and unknown.  and plenty of gloves glasses and earplugs, naturally.  i was spreading it over the clay slope anywhere i didnt want gravel but didnt have grass, to create a mud barrier for my shoes or tires, and keep the rain from washing it out.  that whole corner is a very good producer of wild lettuces, white aster, ragweed, yellow sweet clover, barnyard grass etc etc now.  it gets 3-6ft high.  

well i have about 5 triaxles of this mystery charcoal plant woody mix i pushed up in a hill for the someday when i need it, and it hot composted over the last 2 year i guess?  when i break the crust and screen out the rocks and chips, the fines are like volcanic beach sand.  its fine soft black dirt like coffee grounds with sandy gravelly flek.. you cant make it clump at all and its excellent at breaking up the clay clod natural dirt here.


i dont remember the exact ingredients as its been maybe 2 years but i know i mixed up some finished hot compost (grass, leaves, sawdust and food scraps) with that charcoal dirt blend and probably a few shovels of garden dirt, maybe even some triple 10, and decided..yeah its pleasing to the eye and should have a lot of OM, but i better find out what this stuff is before i go killing all the wild blueberries, so i had a sample done at the co-op but they never got it back to me and i forgot all about it until i tracked down the report last year, looked at it, had no idea what i was looking at and forgot about it again.  


fast forward to present, my understanding of the soil microbiome is evolving to understand that weeds and microbes are natures way of reaching deep to find what the top soil is lacking, and mineralize it into plant available surface layer that shallow rooted crops can take up in soluble form.  okay, well i know that all that variety in charcoal mountain has got to be minerals, and its great at improving the clay clod structure for increase pore space and permeability..  hey wait i got that sample somewhere in my downloads folder..  oh wow, it is rich in a lot of ways.  and here we are.  

so i just called the co-op soils lady and the whole cadillac test with everything on it is only $15.  id really like to see the micronutrients, and i expected the cost to be more.  i guess if im gonna continue to do all this soil work, a few baselines would be a good investment.  ive got the sprayer built, ive got the compost tea brewer built, and i wanna be able to verify that things go in the positive direction the soilfoodweb crowd says it will.  

co-op lady says cropland here runs 2-4% organic matter and most nutrients will fall in the medium scale.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: btulloh on October 27, 2021, 10:37:24 AM
What was your process for obtaining the sample?
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: mike_belben on October 27, 2021, 12:08:21 PM
i had hand mixed a tub of different ingredients until homogenous that i planned to just dress around the wild blueberry stems, when i decided to get a sample.  just put a scoop in a coffee can or something and went to the co-op.  it went in a bag they provided for sample.  


Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: mike_belben on October 27, 2021, 12:21:59 PM
parking some links i dont wanna lose if the computer croaks

home made seed drill
FARM SHOW Magazine - The BEST stories about Made-It-Myself Shop Inventions, Farming and Gardening Tips, Time-saving Tricks & the Best Farm Shop Hacks, DIY Farm Projects, Tips on Boosting your farm income, time-saving farming advice, farming tractors and Agriculture equipment reviews (https://www.farmshow.com/view_articles.php?a_id=1670)

bill spurlocks photo gallery showing the construction is at the bottom here.
--Photos MUST be in the Forestry Forum gallery!!!!!--.--Photos MUST be in the Forestry Forum gallery!!!!!--[/url]

exceptional cover crop guide
https://www.sare.org/wp-content/uploads/Managing-Cover-Crops-Profitably.pdf

carbon is king. plus the nature of aerobic vs anaerobic manure and bacterial:fungal ratios for plant types 
Biology and Benefits (https://www.biomineralstechnologies.com/farm-solutions/composting/biology-and-benefits)


fungal dominated compost reactor
Dr. David Johnson's Research on Fungal-Dominated Compost and Carbon Sequestration ? Center for Regenerative Agriculture and Resilient Systems ? CSU, Chico (https://www.csuchico.edu/regenerativeagriculture/bioreactor/david-johnson.shtml)

i like this guy, gabe brown.  hes got a real similar story to joel salatin and greg judy.  real farmers who went broke conventionally.  ended up going without the synthetic inputs because they ran out of money to buy them and were gonna lose it all.  with synthetics removed, things got better.

Treating the Farm as an Ecosystem with Gabe Brown Part 1, The 5 Tenets of Soil Health - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUmIdq0D6-A)
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: btulloh on October 27, 2021, 12:28:24 PM
Ah.  It would be useful to check with them about depth and distribution of subsamples. They probably have a recommendation for obtaining an average over an area. If not, there are plenty of references to this out there or i can post a link. Sampling a single spot on or near the surface can provide misleading results. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: mike_belben on October 27, 2021, 12:53:02 PM
i dont think any of them are adapted to the concept of what im sampling.  stuff that was loaded by wheel loader, piled 8 feet high, then dug through and screened then mixed in a bin.  im not even bringing them soil.   there is no top or bottom piece of laundry in the dryer, if you get what i mean. no topsoil or subsoil here.  its a big homogenous heap of ingredients.  whats in one inch is in all of them. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: Southside on October 27, 2021, 01:37:59 PM
Sounds more like a soil ammendment.  Chemically there are different ways to accurately measure peat type soils (not the technical name) vs mineral soils as the extrememly high organic matter in peat type of soils skews the test results.  The question is what rate to apply it to your soil for maximum effictiveness and utilization without waste.  Also, top dress or knife in?  A represenative sample of the growing soil would help to know where you are starting off.  

Spent scrubber lime from natural gas fired boilers is a very economical way to get calicum and sulfur at the same time too.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: wisconsitom on October 28, 2021, 08:09:37 AM
Mike, check this out;  https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=https%3A%2F%2Fhgic.clemson.edu%2Ffactsheet%2Ffertilizing-vegetables%2F&psig=AOvVaw2YwvP9aDRCWH2x-Wwq3p-V&ust=1635509416568000&source=images&cd=vfe&ved=0CAsQjRxqFwoTCMD7rsCJ7fMCFQAAAAAdAAAAABAD

If that link works, and you have any questions, please feel free to get back to me on this whole soil pH/nutrient availability thang.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: mike_belben on October 28, 2021, 10:47:45 AM
thank you sir.  the link did work, but it advocates the conventionals that i have come to reject.  
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: wisconsitom on October 28, 2021, 11:53:12 AM
I didn't read the text, but was hoping to show the chart of pH's effect on nutrient availability.  In most basic terms-pun intended-a neutral or near-neutral pH satisfies the vast majority of plant species.  It is only when one wishes to grow varieties with pronounced higher or lower pH needs that one can get in trouble.

BTW, blueberries are way on the list of acid-lovers.  They're most definitely NOT going to like all that ash.  Now that's the wild, lowbush type I speak of, but pretty sure all blueberries are alike in that sense.

Soils have a property called buffering capacity.  Simply put, a given soil will tend to revert to its original pH range even though one may set out to adjust it.  Doesn't mean one can't make adjustments, but just be aware, repeat applications of say, soil sulfur may be required.  I've only ever found soil sulfur at farm co-ops.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: newoodguy78 on October 28, 2021, 05:24:37 PM
Mike have you tried growing anything in it directly?
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: mike_belben on October 29, 2021, 09:15:08 AM
i havent tried to, but my kid stuck some corn sprouts in one of the piles and they got to knee high.  barnyard grass on top of it came in naturally probably from birds sitting there, it got full sized and some kinda viney thing across the steep southern slope face has grown in fine over that entire face.  there are things equipped to grow directly in the ammendment but not most things, is how i am looking at it.  its a good improver for poor soil, but a poor soil in itself.  


thank you for the information tom. i have been getting quite the education in this stuff lately (trying to trouble shoot a health issue) and the picture emerging for me is that it isnt blueberry or rhodadedron or mountain laurel so much love acid soil, its that they take a high ratio of fungi to bacteria to thrive, and bacteria are dramatically reduced in variety and quantity by acidic soils. so the bacteria/fungi ratio comes more into line with what a blueberry needs when the PH is killing bacteria but not fungi.  grasses and garden veggies want a 1:1ish ratio and old growth forests are like 1 bacteria for 1k fungi.  

up above i left a link to a pair of ken hamilton vids which are the best ive found, explaining how soil miicrobes (which colonize and feed on the root exudates of living plants) eat other soil microbes that generate excess nitrogens they cannot contain, which are farted out to the plants in a symbiosis.

here's the study that found the PH effect on bacteria but not on fungi.
Soil bacterial and fungal communities across a pH gradient in an arable soil | The ISME Journal (https://www.nature.com/articles/ismej201058)

there is a growing choir of people who have left the co-op behind because they went broken buying chemicals, who have joined this bacterial/fungal crowd and found that when they finally get soil biology dialed in through best practices... PH changes, fertilization, pesticide and herbicide are no longer needed. whats needed is a change in mindset to stop thinking we need to kill everything that isnt a corn or soy plant.  that convention brings about non stop pests and problems.  it certainly did for me the first few years. once i got the soil black and thriving, i had the same pests all over the place and i didnt do anything about it, but they didnt harm anything. 

everyone told me id need tons of lime to grow anything in my woods. i got rye grass to my belt without any by growing it in a broad mix of legumes and brassicas. i didnt not know that at the time, just planted a foodplot blend, but i can look back now and say my result supports this choir and goes against the co-op agronomists.  
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: mike_belben on October 29, 2021, 09:31:24 AM
i dont say any of this to be argumentative or be a know it all.  i just wanna help people.  i was really really frustrated with a 30 row garden that produced zero, a whole 8 or 9 months of hard work wasted. buying chemicals never put food in the fridge for me, and i wanna see food in peoples fridges. its only a matter of time before the next covid lie "interrupts" the food supply chains. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: newoodguy78 on October 29, 2021, 10:56:24 AM
Interesting thing about the fertilizer use, mentioned in a different thread felt as though we were using an exorbitant amount and shared the quantity. Member @btulloh (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=29962) suggested getting a soil analysis done at 40-50 days out to actually see what was left for the plant when needed an excellent idea that I followed up on. Had an intern from Umass doing biweekly crop checks, took soil samples when I knew she was coming and asked her what I'd like to do had written down exactly what had been applied when and in what manner it was incorporated in the soil. Felt I was being pretty thorough and going to ask intelligent questions for once in my life. She was absolutely dumbfounded and could not figure out why I would want to do that if the crop was doing well, kept pushing her so she called her superior. Got the same results from talking to her. She recommended doing soil samples this fall to recommend rates for next year and was happy to hear how much was being used and commended us for it. The only thing both of them were concerned about was the cost of the soil test and how it is "expensive" the cost...25 bucks. Fertilizer bill this year is probably over 20 grand. I'm not too smart but I'll drop a little bit of change to pick up dollars any day of the week.

The best part is I stuck my neck out on a piece of ground and used my own practices of cover crops,composted horse manure and literally cut the fertilizer in half. The results...best crop the boss has ever seen in 30 years. Was some glad it worked out didn't want to explain to her why I thought that field and crops wasn't yielding like it should. Granted the crops were ones that don't require as much inputs but feel it's all relative.

The time to figure out how to grow crops with inputs other than fertilizer is here and now. The rising cost of fertilizer and decreased chemical production by foreign countries will surely take a large chunk out of already very small margins.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: mike_belben on October 29, 2021, 01:30:27 PM
 8)  nice work! 


Real similar phone call for me when i asked soil test lady a week or so back about that one i shared on the woodchip pile.  Note it does not have any nitrogen measurement in it.  So i asked the price on the caddilac test with all the blanks filled in, $15..  Okay, thats well worth it.. And that will have nitrogen on it too? 

"No, we dont measure nitrogen.  We will just tell you how much to add based on the crop."


::)
I decided that was the last time i was gonna ask a pro at the sales desk what to do. How can you make a recommendation on how much more nitrogen i need if you dont measure how much i have?  Yeah, urea and anhydrous ammonia are exactly what i want leaching out into the bedroom window all summer. 

I have been my wifes most astute observer for longer than all her doctors combined and my observation over the years about their behavior is this.  if they discover a medical thing they will mail a letter and schedule a visit in a month or more, we have waited 4 months on many occasions for an appointment.  But If there is a billing error they will pick up the phone, call her in and make time to resolve that on an emergency walk in basis.   

Shes a walking medicine cabinet guinea pig who is getting worse from it, not better. Ive had enough of chemicals in our lives. 

Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: mike_belben on October 29, 2021, 01:48:00 PM
My friend that lost the cow pasture to army worms this year is a fertilizer and pesticide spraying fellow.. Hes always busy doing something like that.  He only buys sorghum sudan grass and went i looked at his place the only thing in it is goosegrass, not sudan.  The army worms tore it up and his dirt looks like brillo.


I had found plenty of these army worms here at my place without knowing what they were yet, and fed them to chickens. but i never saw any signs of damage from them because there is too much variety to tell.  Ive identified about 20..
 25 species and theres atleast that many more i havent.  I couldnt keep this place mowed if i tried.   The evidence suggests that plant species arent such bitter rival competitors the way we think, but rather theyre symbiotic partners.  I definitely see this in the woods, certain species affiliations.  


That gabe brown fellow i linked above started off with 3 species in his cover crop mix and has 20some years of data.  He is up to 19 species now.  People say weed your corn, nothing but corn can be there. he says interplant it with cow pea or other legume.  I will try this summer.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: Southside on October 29, 2021, 02:08:44 PM
Army worms are more interested in the stage of growth of the plant than the plant species.  Up north they hammer hay fields of perfect Timothy, down this way it's Fescue.  What do both have in common?  Well a Timothy hay field gets harvested at the same time so it's a single species all at the same stage of growth.  Same thing with late summer un managed Fescue.  All one species, all lignified and gone rank, so the woms have a field day, and they are cyclical, you will never stop them.  Just like the Spruce Bud Worm.  Comes around every 30 or so years, and it wasn't a massive issue in Maine until the late '70s when it began to show up as a lot of Fir and Spruce was right at the same age point after the fires in the '40s and timber practices of the time.  Massive blocks of single aged timber.  Just natures way of giving another species a fighting chance.  
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: wisconsitom on November 01, 2021, 08:55:43 AM
Nitrogen in the soil profile is too unstable to be measured.  Any measurement would be essentially a tiny snapshot of something that was changing anyway.  Tough to measure soil N.  There exists a test called Kjeldahl or some such.  That one gets N, but I have no idea if it makes sense to reach for what is surely an expensive proposition.  My answer to N in gardening (definitely not in forestry!) is good organic matter levels combined with spoon-feeding.

I became this community's horticulturist in 1989.  While such items as planters, flower beds, and the like now make up perhaps 20% of my job, at that time it was incumbent on me to improve some seriously worn-out soils.  I immediately began adding compost, primarily in the fall, and the rest was history.

Numerous folks asked me "what kind of Miracle Grow are you using there, Tom"?  Now we still did and do use chemical fertilizers although definitely not the consumer-grade stuff..  I practice "spoon feeding" on such plantings, with great, and I may as well add, very easy success.  Get the soil good, add judicious, small amounts of nutrients constantly in the irrigation water, and that stuff is good to go.

Food gardening, I always went 100% organic.  Soil structure ultimately trumps soil chemistry, although neither one can be too far out of whack.

In forests, forget all this stuff.  Native forest communities are adapted to low, but constantly-available nutrient levels, supplied, as Mike correctly reports, primarily by fungal cohorts.  These fungi in turn rely on certain bacteria to enable them to do their jobs.  Adding lots of N to such systems is usually asking for trouble.  I always hate seeing the invasive woody species in our area-things like black locust or buckthorn with its green leaves into November-making for too much soil N which only paves the way for more invasive junk.  Pretty much anything still green in our woods right now that isn't pine or spruce is some kind of junk that shouldn't be there.  Adding N to such systems is not helpful.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: farmfromkansas on November 01, 2021, 08:21:46 PM
Hauled all the composted manure to my east quarter, seemed like a lot of loads, but will not come close to covering the entire 160 acres.  We baled the grass, and plan to put the manure where the hay was the least.  Price of fertilizer is through the roof.  So I ordered bean seed to plant next spring on my farm ground.  Beans take a lot less fertilizer than milo or corn or even wheat. Wish I could generate enough manure to cover all my farm ground, and some for the grass.  Am going to feed alfalfa and oat hay on my grass this winter, as that in a way fertilizes the winter pasture.  Bringing in feed to the pasture gets the cows to apply their manure to the grass, which fertilizes the grass in a year or 2. Helps to harrow the area you feed in, to spread things out and break up the cow pies.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: mike_belben on November 01, 2021, 08:56:52 PM
I had invested $25 into a pounda thisn a pounda thatn of seed just incase the midwest seed suppliers suddenly find all their inventory stranded in LA harbors or some other such nonsense next.. Figure one in the hand.  So id broadcast covers on my 3 current garden patches but the largest one really wasnt taking it in.  This summers corn bed i mulched in grass clippings and was able to run the seed in with tires because the grass prevented mud clumping.   The brassica bed is small and id worked the rows by hand then overseeded completely in clovers and rolled a 15g drum of oil over it for packing.  Germination on that one is quite good.



The biggest patch has austrian winter pea in the mix and its a big seed plus the bed is just too hard and sticky so the peas are sitting on the surface sprouting tap roots trying to find a pore to get into the dirt.  I think the results will be poor.   I mulched a segment of it ontop the seed with stump grindings for a trial comparison.  Like i said a lot is sprouting on the surface.. Specially AWP and winter wheat.  The clover seed is pretty good about getting a grip.  It dried up for 2 days from a wet week and i was willing to rip around with a fisher price play disc behind the quad today,  since im gonna lose seed anyhow it looks like.  Disk may have flung just enough dirt to bring some germination improvement but i dont know for sure.  If its a no go i will try frost seeding later on in the winter.  Learning either way i guess.

Im eyeballing a piece of 12" double wall corrugated drainage and seeing it full of concrete with a thru pipe for a nice ribbed cultipacker.  I had contemplated dogbowls or brake rotors welded together but thats a chore.  I dont have $600 for a worn out junk cultipacker 2 hrs away.  Thats probably more than it was new when i was a boy. 

I did get to study a real seed drill and know i can make one in the future when i get my machines, lots of bigger issues right now.   My tractor could never pull the co-ops drill but the dozer could if i plumb remotes.  im sure i can hang a pipe by chain under the blade for a front crimper.  If i ever lease acreage anyways.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: farmfromkansas on November 01, 2021, 09:11:27 PM
Don't you have any old antique grain drills in Tennessee? Should be able to find an old one at a farm sale for cheap.  The latest drills here are 60'.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: Southside on November 01, 2021, 09:38:12 PM
At 7 MPH that's just over 50 acres an hour...... :o
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: newoodguy78 on November 01, 2021, 09:59:09 PM
You're somebody when you're pulling that setup  :D
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: mike_belben on November 01, 2021, 10:21:20 PM
Quote from: farmfromkansas on November 01, 2021, 09:11:27 PM
Don't you have any old antique grain drills in Tennessee? Should be able to find an old one at a farm sale for cheap.  The latest drills here are 60'.
Only one i see listed is $45k.  I guess what the scrap boom didnt get, the transplant yard art barn find crowd did.    
Every now and then a shot horse drawn 2 row corn planter comes up for several hundred more than im willing or able to waste. Id rather just build a good one.  I have a bunch of harrows and tool bar stuff in a container up north.  
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: Southside on November 01, 2021, 10:41:38 PM
Quote from: newoodguy78 on November 01, 2021, 09:59:09 PM
You're somebody when you're pulling that setup  :D
My baler doesn't seem so fancy suddenly... :D
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: Southside on November 01, 2021, 10:43:36 PM
Mike, they are out there. I picked up my IH5100 drill for $500 and put about $300 in repairs into it. I will run that over 600 acres this year alone. 1980's technology. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: mike_belben on November 01, 2021, 10:48:00 PM
Quote from: newoodguy78 on November 01, 2021, 09:59:09 PM
You're somebody when you're pulling that setup  :D
Yeah, somebody with a big note to cover. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: mike_belben on November 01, 2021, 10:50:36 PM
Quote from: Southside on November 01, 2021, 10:43:36 PM
Mike, they are out there. I picked up my IH5100 drill for $500 and put about $300 in repairs into it. I will run that over 600 acres this year alone. 1980's technology.
I think itll be tough to find something heavy enough to plant into waist high rolled cover and still be pulled by 26hp.  Havent seen one yet.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: newoodguy78 on November 02, 2021, 11:10:33 AM
We have a 5100 drill here as well, which is not a no till drill. Tried a test on some ground that had a cover crop of Sudan and buckwheat mix on it. Mowed it then went in and drilled it with my fall mix, it's doing excellent. The buckwheat seems to create looser soil near the surface whereas Sudan creates a sod type layer. Keep in mind this stuff was was as tall as a 20.8 38.
With that small amount of hp might be better thinking more towards down pressure via springs or hydraulic versus deadweight. 
The other thing that helps immensely is drilling when after a rain (soil is softer) not always a good idea on tilled ground but the vegetation you're dealing with helps fro gumming up the disks. Another thing I've noticed is going in when the previous crop is still green versus letting it dry down allows the openers to cut better. The vegetation is softer in my opinion.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: farmfromkansas on November 02, 2021, 09:05:43 PM
You need to look at Great Plains no till drills.  They are not so cool now, all the big operations are going for air drills.  I have a early model GP 15' drill on a no till cart.  It has a hinge so the drill follows the cart around curves. The cart has the colters that create a little groove for the opener to run in.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: newoodguy78 on November 02, 2021, 09:12:22 PM
What are you drilling in with it? No till I assume?
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: mike_belben on November 03, 2021, 01:30:05 AM
Will do, thanks FFK.

I planted some onion seed and potatoes that got too far gone today.  Its not chocolate cake yet but were getting there. 



(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/1102211132.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1635908538)

Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: mike_belben on November 03, 2021, 12:21:05 PM
In doing all this soil biology studying i kept encountering claims that conventional ag has wrecked the soil and replaced it with synthetic fertility that grows essentially fake food on a dead dirt sponge with continually reduced nutrient and mineral density in the foods it produces.  It seemed silly a few years ago.  If a tomato looks good it is good was my mentality.


I bought blueberries and peaches the other day.. We are mouth breathing lowlife walmart shoppers so im sure they come from the cheapest full chemical south africa or brazil slave producer.


Both of them are beautiful fruits, thats what makes a sale right?   Perfect shape and texture, no bruising or worm holes, huge and firm.  Oh baby good stuff.





Im not a picky eater at all.. Im like a trash pig, i wont complain or miss a meal.  

Well.. They both taste GROSS!   The peaches have no sweetness at all, theyre like bitting into a tennis ball of tastless rubbery, watery bland flesh.  The blueberries also have no sweetness.. Theyre like a cold mushy blue custard or a hardened plain unsweetened yogurt ball.  I cant believe how bad these taste and have now got to force myself to eat them so they dont go to waste. Stuff aint cheap.

  The tiny wild blueberries out in my woods are half the size of a skittle but taste like the blueberries i remember as a kid, a golf ball of flavor.  My friends up the road have a terrible sorry looking unmanaged apple tree and another neighbor has pears.  Both trees produce ugly runts with soft spots and fungal splotches.. you gotta cut around the worm holes.  But theyre an explosion of sweetness. 

I can remember when i was little and biting into a peach was like a sugar balloon pouring down your chin.  

Its sad but i guess its an opportunity at the same time.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: wisconsitom on November 03, 2021, 12:33:15 PM
I strongly prefer wild lowbush blueberries, although any blueberry may find its way into my mouth if it's not careful.

One thing about big, big modern ag.....it's sending the best topsoil in the world down to the bottom of the Gulf of Mexico.

Increasing soil carbon, not nitrogen, not potash, not phosphates, is the food-growing challenge of the world.  More carbon in the soil-good.  More carbon in the air and sea-bad.  Most human activities contribute to the latter effect.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: Southside on November 03, 2021, 01:22:49 PM
A lot of fruit is picked before it's ripened and then exposed to calcium carbide to ripen so it's not bruised in shipping and such, but as you said - there goes the flavor and texture.  
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: stavebuyer on November 03, 2021, 03:14:45 PM
Commercial "wax" fruit and veggies is why I go to the trouble to raise a large garden. I was raised knowing what real food tastes like. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: moodnacreek on November 03, 2021, 09:14:11 PM
I tried raspberries a few years back Fed the robins , deer, rabbits, woodchucks and we had a few. Tried 3 varieties and was disappointed in flavors.  To me at least you can't beat free range [chicken ] eggs or wild berries for flavor.                    In fur trapping it was wild mink/ranched mink as another example.  Even fancy hardwood lumber or veneer, grow it all on the same soil and it's all the same color. Walnut is a wood where you can easily see this; 'black', redish, purple, light brown. If a buyer works the same area long enough, he can tell where the logs where cut. If you grew up with all store bought  you might be happier. You can't miss what you never had.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: newoodguy78 on November 03, 2021, 10:15:14 PM
Another issue with commercially grown food is the varieties themselves that are grown. When choosing seed a lot of the time a decision needs to be made whether it's yield or flavor you want in the end. Essentially picking quality or quantity. The number of varieties for any given item you choose to grow is incredible.The cost difference for quality seed that produces a better tasting product tallies up fast. Most wholesale growers are working on very small margins as it is.  
Growing stuff when it really isn't meant to be grown effects the flavor as well in my opinion. We grow an early season green bean here. Usually plant them as soon as we can get across the field in early to mid April. Grounds cold and wet germination seems to take forever. Not much sun usually a brisk wind that time of year. While the do grow and produce I much prefer the later varieties, drop them in the ground the end of May they're headed for the sun about as quick as you plant them. Growing conditions are usually very good by then and the crops show it.
Customers are always looking for stuff early me personally I'll wait till the stuff is ready that was put in with dust coming off the furrow rather than early season stuff that got mudded in. Always tastes better.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: mike_belben on November 04, 2021, 06:33:48 AM
I hadnt considered that, good point.  

I am always jealous of the guys peddling huge finished fruit in spring when i havent even seeded yet but im guessing theyre hoophousers anyway and i shouldnt be trying to measure up!
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: moodnacreek on November 04, 2021, 08:37:22 AM
For everything there is a season.   One year I planted some corn meant for the north country, 59 day sweet corn, and it was, tasted just like the dirt it was planted in.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: newoodguy78 on November 04, 2021, 08:48:57 AM
I couldn't agree more. Sweet corn is a prime example. At 59 days ours is far from ready but the wait is worth it. A few guys around here plant the short day stuff. A lot of their customers start coming here once ours start coming in. Our most popular varieties are the longest days to maturity we plant. It's not a coincidence. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: mudfarmer on November 04, 2021, 09:59:36 AM
Have not been around much, just wanted to pop in and say this is a great thread. 

Rebuilding depleted soils is what we have been doing here, no chems just good old fashioned natural soil building, sped up a few notches. Wish my connection was good enough to get a few pics uploaded.

New for me this year and last was the bounty that comes out of the bottom of a small (10x15ft approx) duck pond in a clay low spot in the yard. When it dries up a few times per summer the black gold gets shoveled out to be added to compost piles and it sure adds up fast. 

We are young and have been producing e& eating our own good food for a while, it won't counteract my bad habits but can't hurt on the health side of things. Interesting to see the talk of co-op and fertilizer Mike, must be an ag co-op? We don't have them here, the co-op is where you go to buy health food, local fruits and veggies etc 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: wisconsitom on November 04, 2021, 10:02:20 AM
Mud, I brought up co-ops.  Yes, they are farmer's supply houses, grain storage elevators, do custom field applications, etc.  Big big thing around here in the farm belt.

But I only brought them up because they are basically the only brick and mortar where a guy can get soil sulfur.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: mudfarmer on November 04, 2021, 10:29:54 AM
Trenching temp fence for main garden expansion couple weeks back. You get two guesses on which side had a couple pigs in it for a week last year   ;D


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/37318/IMG_20211024_160925317.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1636035989)
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/37318/IMG_20211024_160942020.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1636035893)
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/37318/IMG_20211024_160749407.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1636036072)
 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: farmfromkansas on November 04, 2021, 10:57:44 AM
I use my no till GP drill to plant wheat in soybean stubble.  Tried using it to plant beans years ago, was not accurate enough.  So I use a planter to plant beans.  Can set it for how many seeds per acre, and a planter opener gets the seed to the proper depth.  If I were using a drill to plant beans, would have to get a JD no till drill.  Hear the old 750 model is the better one out there, but hard to get set for the proper number of seeds. Most of the neighbors are going to air drills, as they are very accurate on seeds per acre. And seed depth.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: mike_belben on November 04, 2021, 01:59:55 PM
Ive been contemplating an adjustable height shank opener in a walking beam.  The walking beam pivots on a trailing arm with a torflex style rubber rod suspension.  the front wheel of the pair is a straight coulter and the back wheel is a packer with a loop of drag chain behind it.  The opener probably just a harrow tine tip with a half crushed pipe welded behind it, like a vacuum cleaner attachment to make sure the seed lands in the tine slit.  plywood packer wheel pushes seed into slit, drag chain covers it.  Roller up front to lay down cover crop and a friction wheel off the roller to drive the seed meter shaft.  


The co-op is a wonderful place.  Its an AG store designed for profit, owned by a collective of farmers for their mutual benefit, that also sells to the public at reasonably fair market prices.  No one person owns the co-op, its a farmer democracy of sorts.  And i think its as much about bargaining power in buying semi loads of fertilizer, lime, seed, etc that they need, as well as a retail outlet for some of their own production.  Theyve got a public truck scale for weighing a crop on the way to the various commodity packers or feed mill etc..  high floatation lime trucks, seed drill, spreaders etc.  A lot of stuff that a small farm just cant afford but cant do without

Im sure there is politics behind the scenes but its where i try to make my money go.  They arent exporting it to china or raising prices to cover exec bonuses as fast as a big box does. Everyone that works there tends to be a pretty useful human. You can get pretty good advice from someone behind a register or filling a propane tank.  


Nice topsoil!
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: newoodguy78 on November 04, 2021, 09:13:50 PM
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/40841/091DAEF4-310D-41B0-9803-5EDFDAB94C0E.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1636073577)
 Checked on some of my cover crops the other day while out drilling was happy with what I saw. Trying out radishes in the cocktail mix this year. It's an effort to fight compaction and make micro nutrients available to the crops. 
Amazing little plants, from the research I've done and talking to people the average compaction layer in this area takes about 300 psi to penetrate. The tap root of these is supposed to penetrate up to a 1,000 psi compaction layer.
Another piece of trivia is the "fruit" goes down until it hits that layer then sends the taproot down while the "fruit" still grows but only above the surface. 
This gives you an indication of how deep the layer is below the surface. The sunglasses are for reference. 
Pulled some in areas of the field where I know the the roads are versus out in the middle of the crop.
Consistently a 2-3" difference in depth of compaction layer.

Would love to make a subsoiler and rip a bunch of ground until then gonna rely on these little biodrills.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: Southside on November 04, 2021, 10:31:21 PM
Having run a subsoiler and raddishes myself I think the raddish achieves more that just ripping.  Nutrient recovery alone gives them a massive advantage. With subsoiling you want to be careful not to drive with the rows if it has been wet for a while.  Water penetrates to the bottom of the slot and then fills above there - lets just say it can get quite soft and those rows will swallow a tire now and then.  Still a very valuable tool, but not an annual one where the raddish can be.  Also - you can graze raddish, so it creates another revenue option.  

Should have taken some before and after photos yesterday but never gave it a thought.  Ran my off set disc through a field that had been let go for about 4 years, which down this way is about the same as 15 back in Maine.  Fennel was 8' tall and THICK, pine and gum saplings that went from 2' to 8' also.  Few Locust that were over 15' at their very tops, so tons and tons of organic matter that turned into - well nothing.  Landower called me today after stopping by and asked me where I "put all the stuff from the field".  Told him it's in the dirt, massive organic matter infustion from two passes 90 degrees to each other.  Will need to take a york rake and clean up the larger sticks that didn't get absolutely pulverized, then run the finishing disc over it and throw a ton of cover crop seed on it for the winter, but the soil looks amazing.  For sure there will be weed / sapling issues there for a couple of years and the nitrogen will be tied up, but that will be addressed with legumes and harvest / mowing to get ahead of it all.  
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: newoodguy78 on November 04, 2021, 10:45:20 PM
Have you used them in a mix or planted by themselves? At what rate of planting have you seen the most benefit?
I won't ask for pictures of the tire sunken in the ripper tracks    :D
Sounds like one of those events that turns a good chain into a stove poker by the time it's over. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: Southside on November 04, 2021, 10:50:19 PM
Both in a mix and alone.  Put out 3 lbs / acre into the area off to the right of the driveway as you head in before driving down the hill a little while ago.  Wanted to get them in eariler, but time....  The soil there sticks together like brick, year before last year I pounded the chip mulch to it and didn't want to do that again so soon, thus the raddish.  

It was the 2WD IH that went down, so nothing compared to the time Big Green decided to head to China.  :D
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: newoodguy78 on November 04, 2021, 10:56:41 PM
I might have gotten a little heavy handed with them on a couple pieces but for the most part was pretty accurate with 3lb/acre on the rest of the ground 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: mike_belben on November 05, 2021, 02:45:16 AM
It took me about 30 years of trying to make a chain into a cane.  ;D


That radish is one mean tiller!  

Like jim said the raddish is mightier than the plow.   it excretes root exudates which draws the bacteria and fungi that feed on the plants complex excretions of basically sugars, to colonize deep into the soil in the immediate space around the root.. Aka the rhizosphere.  The plant is capable of parking carbon (that glorious building block of all creation that we have mistakenly gone to war with like a dog eating its own tail) exactly where its needed.  The worms dont come until the bacteria and fungi and nematodes and protozoa are there and they require a root exudate to feed on.  It takes a diverse abundance of plants and time to fix over tilled soil.

If you wanna go full nerd, or just need help falling asleep like me, here is a biotech paper on exudates, F:B ratio and soil carbon (read: fertility) deposition rates.

Frontiers | Soil Fungal:Bacterial Ratios Are Linked to Altered Carbon Cycling | Microbiology (https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fmicb.2016.01247/full)


You are on long term conventially tilled crop ground.  Ken hamilton told me thats always gonna be bacterially dominated because conventional systems always kill off mycorhizal fungi.  Then you can spend a fortune on inputs to get a diminishing yield on crops that just dont thrive in that dysbiotic imbalanced F:B ratio.  What is needed is to replenish the carbon.  The only thing that will do it in our impatient timeframe is woody chipped up carbonaceous materials and sugars.

These were forests, once we deplete the carbon stored by a forest it needs another forest cycle to get it back naturally.  If you cant wait that long you better have a chopped up forest delivered. I take triaxle loads of woody trash.  I call tree and landscape people or just walk up to them in parking lots and give my number.


So.. Set aside ONE ROW.. Just one pass of the cultivator on the edge of one field.  Go find STUMP GRINDINGS.. They are magic.  Perfect blend of wood chip and dirt that has uncountable quantity of living biology already composting away by the time the truck dumps it.  Im serious, 2 hours after the stump is ground the pile in the truck is coming to my house and already heating. That bacterial activity. 2 days and its getting white fuzzies, micorhizal fungi.

Plop your grindings out a few inches thick on your designated fallow patch or row.  Go round up some seed.  Whatever kinda seed.  I harvest seed heads off just about anything and sort it only by warm season and cool season, just a mix of prolific wild stuff, maybe 20, 30 varieties i lose track.  Thats how nature does it. Here is a rooting depth chart by crop class

Crop Rooting Depth - UC Drought Management (https://ucmanagedrought.ucdavis.edu/Agriculture/Irrigation_Scheduling/Evapotranspiration_Scheduling_ET/Frequency_of_Irrigation/Crop_Rooting_Depth/)


Broadcast it ontop the woodchips, stomp or rake it in. Go to the aged compost pile with a mesh feed sack, put in a few scoops.   Stick that in a barrel of rain water under the gutter and plunge it around like a tea bag, water browns.   Now purge out the atv sprayer of chemical, put a tshirt and bungee cord filter over the hole and pour the tea in.  Dump in some honey, molasses or syrup,  This is sugars to help the fungi colonize more rapidly.. With no plants growing yet there are no root exudates to support them.  Why does maple rot to powder so fast?  Sugar to feed the fungi, that simple.  A maple will disappear before an oak loses the bark.  Come see the treehouse i built the kids for proof.

Go spray the woody strip with free magic sauce.

Leave it alone for a full year and dont mow it. thats easy enough right?  Do zero.  Let the whole thing go to seed and hand harvest those seed heads, it sounds like a chore but i promise it is therapeutic.. Its what i go do when i feel like punching somebody.  Im aggravated that all the seed is down now. Collect your seed for the next row.

Now the row that you started is gonna turn to chocolate cake completely full of earthworms and retained moisture with drought tolerance.  DONT TILL IT!  Dont spray it, dont fertilize it.  Use that strip as your research station to develop your zero input, zero effort, high dollar produce game.  Gabe brown says compaction goes away 1 inch per yer while cover cropping.  That just by planting, not with added woody material.  I just excavated my garden to put the pool there.  3yrs of lazy growing with woodchips and weeds in the same spot as my first year, total failure garden. and it was between 10 and 14 inches of cake i had to move by backhoe and wheelbarrow. 

   My compost box sitting on bare clay hardpan had subsoiled about 8 inches in 3 yrs. Like a sinkhole in a driveway.

In a year, choose the vegetables that had the most blight, disease or pest pressure in the history of this farm.  Start those seedlings in trays indoors, walk out to your unmolested, unmowed, grassy looking cake strip.   trample weeds by foot only where you are planting.  spread straw or woodchip or sawchip, stomp it down, insert spade, wiggle it, stick in your seedling just like pine plantation workers with a dibble bar.  Thats it.  As weeds emerge, more straw.  Never pull a weed. Just smother them.

Squirrels sowed the redwoods and  seqoias without pulling a weed or tilling. Weve been doing it wrong to our great detriment.  


If you just cant make the time for stump grindings plant switchgrass, panicum virgatum, a head high native prarie grass that buffalo trampled into the great plains for eons to make that fertile grassland.  It is a one time planting, grows in terrible soil with basically no inputs, and roots 8ft deep.  Takes 3 full years to become a mature stand, thick as bamboo.  It is the top biomass ethanol alternative to corn because its so dense and cheap to grow on bad land and doesnt need reseeding ever really.   You could roll that down every year and get your carbon put back in, as well as soften your compaction about knee deep. I dont think it will be as diverse as the stump grindings but its easy.  It can be cut off in bunches and laid down to decompose in the row right next to it or used as straw for mulching plants.  Theyve grown it at the experiment station and its some pretty soft black soil after a few years.  


Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: mike_belben on November 05, 2021, 05:09:09 AM
Dead tired and still cant flippin sleep!

Summer 2016 we land in TN flat broke after losing the 2 houses. Within weeks i hitch up the cub cadet to some brinley stuff with the kids surfing ontop for down pressure and cut my very first garden into the lawn.  Turnover plow then chisel then york rake then hand rake. Seedbed soft as can be.   Something is making me say 28 rows 6ft long, plus squash and mellon hills.. From seed packets all hand planted.  

Worked at it all summer, weeded it, toted water to it constantly. Everything sprouted and looked cute.  A few rains later starts dying one thing at a time. 100% failure at a terrible time for us, very disheartening.

I was so angry at that rock hard crusted yellow dirt that would grow every weed but no crop... that i dug it out with the bobcat and tossed it in the driveway as fill -the only thing it was good for- leaving a trench to remind me not to bother ever again.  

Well we dont have trash pickup and i dont wanna smell or try to burn rotting food so i made a compost bin.  like the hardhead i am, i went back to the trench determined to never stir up the sandy clay again.


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/0508181111.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1636099436)



This is 5/17, starting over with all the pure compost i had to work with.  You can see all the bark in that pile.  I didnt mix it in at all and used it very sparingly.  If i had $10 idve bought some straw bales to mulch it, but i didnt. woodchips someone needed to dump is how i was coating the clay yard not to get stuck for lack of gravel, or track mud inside.  I put woodchips down to keep the precious little compost from washing away in our downpours.


There were plenty of issues but its put real food on our plates all season ever since.  Id pile all the yard junk overwinter and in spring it was black dirt that kept getting deeper.  Pure sawdust mulching onions here. Woody stuff and hot compost (grass, sawdust and food scraps) was the continual primary addition and i really didnt fertilize much at all, few handfuls in all those years.  Every summer there was green flowing out over the top of the fence that i was always trimming back. Theres a garden thread for that so im focusing on soil life here.. Note the dirt getting darker.


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/0528201214a.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1636099491)


Hot summers, no AC.  Wife buys the kids a cheap pool kit on sale.  I had to move the garden.  This is excavating the lawn and topsoil right up to it.  


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/0608211953_Film3-1.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1636099629)
And this is the garden dirt.  
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/0613211704_Film1-1-1.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1636099626)


I struvk me that i really only added a few wheelbarrows of compost as i could make it, and woodchips.  I had never been to this depth.. All my work was piling ontop of crappy hardpan clay.. This black tilth sunk downward on its own without labor by me. 


As we got closer to the garden, the dirt got richer.  This black spot is just lawn outside the fence.. It has never been ammended by me, the microbial life spread there on its own, maybe from spillings between the compost bin and garden gate.


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/0608211916_Film3-1.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1623207136)


I moved all that good soil to this little wedge with some triple 10.


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/0518211607_Film3.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1636103109)




Look what happened
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/0802210640_Film1.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1627908213)


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/0906211224-1.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1630959830)



(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/0726211011b_Film1.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1627331093)


There was triple 10 and one wheelbarrow of compost mixed into that bed.  No manures. No followup fertilizing, no weeding, herbicide, fungicide etc.  The squash vines were in the rows of that corn and it was way dense corn.  Nutrient competition didnt seem to hurt anything and if i forgot the rainwater tote hose was running i could never tell.  It wouldnt runoff or turn to mud. This crib would absorb 100 gallons of water and its 8 inches deep max, one season old.  That corn seemed to grow 6" every night.






Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: Nebraska on November 05, 2021, 07:46:43 AM
Turnips radishes and rye, all good things. If I remember correctly a few  folks back home planted sunflowers to help break up hard pan  in the soil when I was younger.  The issue was marketing the sunflower seed.  Probably would make good chicken feed.. Mostly folks just ran a deep ripper every 3 or 4 years. Nice black dirt Mike.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: Nebraska on November 05, 2021, 07:55:45 AM
 

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/55256/20211104_110611.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1636112993)


Nothing terribly special just a little mess of turnips picked from a food plot I have. I like them and wanted some fried greens, by next trip the tops will be froze off.  Easiest stuff to grow I think.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: newoodguy78 on November 05, 2021, 10:09:23 PM
Quote from: Nebraska on November 05, 2021, 07:46:43 AM
Turnips radishes and rye, all good things. If I remember correctly a few  folks back home planted sunflowers to help break up hard pan  in the soil when I was younger.  The issue was marketing the sunflower seed.  Probably would make good chicken feed.. Mostly folks just ran a deep ripper every 3 or 4 years. Nice black dirt Mike.
The sunflowers peak my interest. I had noticed on my grain drill there's a separate seeding chart inside the hopper lid just for them. They also might make a little extra revenue as we already plant some just for selling in bunches. Personally I'm not much of a flower guy but really enjoy them. Would like to see a field planted to them as part of a cocktail mix knowing they're out there working and not just looking nice. I'm definitely going to research this further.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: Southside on November 05, 2021, 10:33:24 PM
Yes they have an excellent tap root. Broilers will eat the seed quite readily, layers not so much. Cold pressing them to extract oil leaves behind a meal that makes an awesome bypass protein cattle feed. 

Dan McAmoil of Penokee, KS has done a lot with making home made diesel from the oil. Amazing guy, been to his place a few times, wealth of knowledge. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: newoodguy78 on November 05, 2021, 10:40:12 PM
I've noticed disking the ones we already grow they have an impressive root system. I need to look at some smaller seeded varieties that'll make it through the drill without crushing the seed.
It's very interesting looking at what farmers were doing 60-80 years ago. Some of the practices were way ahead of their time in my opinion. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: Southside on November 05, 2021, 11:02:28 PM
I have used my drill for them without issue. Is your 2 row a plate type? If so that's an easy solution. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: newoodguy78 on November 05, 2021, 11:16:05 PM
It's a vacuum planter but that would definitely work. Incredibly versatile planter. Once I figure out the population guarantee I could set it with what I already have as far as disks and sprocket configuration.
Plant the sunflowers with it then run across it with the drill for the rest of the cocktail. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: mike_belben on November 06, 2021, 07:38:00 AM
Not only is sunflower an excellent soil breaker, but exceptional for luring pollinators in.  You cant have a good vegetable crop without stable pollination.  


Hand pollinate some of your cukes and squash this season.  Identify a male flower, pinch it off, de-flower it then go grind it around in the female flower sites.  


If you get really impressive fruit from this, your pollinator density is too low.  Mine sure was so i planted wildflower mix in the garden edges. White clover, chicory and white aster get a lot of bumblebee action.  I dunno what they are but theres still flowers out right now in november.  Crimson clover will flower profusely to feed bees around greenup in early spring.

Garden is done but bees still gotta eat.  Look into permanent 3 season flower beds and maybe even bee boxes.  Im pretty sure its gabe brown in ND that ships his bees south for winter and sells honey on farm.  Well, sells a ton of stuff.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: Nebraska on November 06, 2021, 07:46:32 AM
Too many miles on my memory (25 or 30 years) but I thought most were planted with a corn planter, JD 7000 series with the corn cups, probably international air planters too. I remember them being rowed not drilled. Pretty crop watching the heads follow the sun in late summer.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: mike_belben on November 06, 2021, 09:36:10 AM

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/1106210700.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1636205530)


Whatever these are theyre frost hardy.  29 last nght.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: farmfromkansas on November 06, 2021, 01:47:03 PM
One of my neighbors plants sunflowers.  I tried it once as a double crop behind wheat.  Got my cost back for seed and the seed cups that I had to buy to plant them.  Grass was a problem.  Also turkeys, we had a large population of turkeys and they would jump on the biggest heads and knock them down and eat them.  Double crop seems to work best, late planting saves having to spray for head moths. I planted with a 1750 JD planter, and had to use a 653A row head to harvest the things.  They got too tall for a header with a reel.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: btulloh on November 06, 2021, 01:56:42 PM
I used to plant a couple rows of sunflowers. The deer would eat the young heads as soon as they emerged and all i had left was stalks. I'd probably have to plant at least two or three acres to have any chance of having a few get to maturity. 

A lot of people around here will plant a goodsized field of the black oil variety and bush hog them for dove hunting. 

I didn't know they had subterranean benefits. Interesting. I also learned about the benefits of radishes here just now.  What variety are y'all planting?  I've only raised the little red ones. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: newoodguy78 on November 06, 2021, 02:37:33 PM
Daikon radishes is what I planted. Forage radishes seems to be a very common name for them as well. Couldn't tell you if they're the same plant or not.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: Southside on November 06, 2021, 02:58:34 PM
There must be some significant variety with sunnies. When we planted them for seed I used a high oleic variety and any the deer ate came back with multiple, smaller heads to compensate for the loss.

T Raptor are a very aggressive tillage raddish, the grazing varieties have less off flavor to them along with a lot less impact on milk flavor. Definitely have to be careful with that.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: Firewoodjoe on November 06, 2021, 08:09:00 PM
I'm still waiting for it to freeze hard so I can put cows on sorghum pasture. There's still a lot of juice in the stalks and it's not worth the poison risk. It was 28 here a few times. I can't believe it's still that green down low. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: moodnacreek on November 06, 2021, 09:24:57 PM
Quote from: mike_belben on November 06, 2021, 09:36:10 AM

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/1106210700.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1636205530)


Whatever these are theyre frost hardy.  29 last nght.
Same here, same night, I thought you would be warmer. We where frost free through Oct. , same last year.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: newoodguy78 on November 06, 2021, 11:03:09 PM
Quote from: Firewoodjoe on November 06, 2021, 08:09:00 PM
I'm still waiting for it to freeze hard so I can put cows on sorghum pasture. There's still a lot of juice in the stalks and it's not worth the poison risk. It was 28 here a few times. I can't believe it's still that green down low.
Please correct me if I'm wrong but I thought risks of prussic acid and nitrate poisoning increased after a hard killing frost. It's my understanding the leaves carry the highest levels. Or is there a waiting period and then the risk is not there? I have zero first hand experience grazing sorghum and speak strictly from reading about it.
I am very interested in it though and trying to learn. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: Southside on November 06, 2021, 11:44:36 PM
You are correct that the prussic acid issue increases after a hard frost, and during drought stress, but in the case of frost it disappates a few days after and becomes safe to graze again.  In the case of drought stress the plant is safe after you can see the drought stress has passed and the plant looks healthy and vibrant again.  We got our first hard frost (28F) night before last, so what is left of my Johnson Grass will be go again by Monday at the latest.  

The sorguhums are also nitrate accumulators so you want to be careful about growing it on heavily fertilized ground.  
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: mike_belben on November 07, 2021, 06:27:27 AM
Quote from: moodnacreek on November 06, 2021, 09:24:57 PM
Quote from: mike_belben on November 06, 2021, 09:36:10 AM

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/1106210700.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1636205530)


Whatever these are theyre frost hardy.  29 last nght.
Same here, same night, I thought you would be warmer. We where frost free through Oct. , same last year.
Though we are pretty far south, we are on the top of the plateau @2000ft in a little pocket of kentucky climate so just a bit to my east and west are more expected southern temp extremes in summer while ive got the cooler end of the spectrum in winter.   Just off the plateau spring leaves will be fully formed when mine are just baby leaves.  


We are on a rift sort of zone in terms of southern and northern weather clash, hence the tornados.  Wind from the south gives us abnormal warmth and vice versa. Once in a while the winds shift direction and the temp goes up and down quite a bit in a short span.  Jacket on off on off.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: mike_belben on November 07, 2021, 07:11:54 AM
Shifting gears here i wanna share some results before i forget them.  In agriculture and the medical fields youve got conflicting sides.  Medical is eastern vs western, holistic vs pharmaceutical.  Agriculture is conventional vs regenerative i guess.  With so many credentialed experts that all sound legit you cant know who to believe until you try it and see for yourself.  


One of the small test plots im working on, call it bed 3, i quit mowing and let it get long then crimped it down to stimulate a high herd density.  Did this 2x a few months apart like a natural herd but i added no fertility or microbial life the way stock would.  my eyeball gauge said the soil quality did improve a bit.  Certainly crimping did not degrade anything and regrowth was fine. Elsewhere ive had crimping rough plants and briars allow finer grasses to come in.


Conventional ag says plow everything, regenerative ag leans toward dont plow anything.  So i plowed the entire bed to find out.  I was willing to cause a small setback to get the truth. a few days later i hand seeded a 3 way cover crop of winter wheat, austrian winter pea and crimson clover.  By then the surface had already crusted a bit and the seed just sat on top so i realize its my fault on the seeding delay, i shoulda done them back to back. But the soil crust (among many things) is still a huge detriment of tillage.

I ran the seed in with the 4 wheeler a bit the day i seeded but the winter pea was just too large to get incorporated.  Looked like a total loss a few days later so i ran an atv disc over it real fast trying to fling some dirt on the seed and salvage what i could by getting some soil contact. This is like a hand raking, very topical, it only scratches crusted dirt. The disc is a featherweight toy that doesnt sink in.

 A small corner that i couldnt effectively disc i lightly mulched with stump grindings by hand flinging from a wheelbarrow so it rained down on top like snow. Up to an inch thick at most in some spots.  

I guess its been a week and the disced up, bare soil side had almost zero germination. The seeds are sprouting, but taproots unable to break the crust to get rooted, and soon to die on the surface.  

The side that i mulched has a very good germination rate at a glance.  It appears to be comparable to the 2 other beds that i sowed the same day i tilled and raked up to a soft surface-  either mulched with grass and drove in to firm, or cultipacked with a full 15gallon smooth sided drum to firm without any mulching, just bare dirt.  I think that all 3 methods have shown to be acceptable so far based on pretty comparable germination.

Now to see which bed gets the highest growth before going dormant or which delays dormancy the longest.



Since the bare dirt portion of bed 3 seemed pretty doomed, i mixed up a small seed blend that is easy to incorporate, mostly brassica, hand raked a corner the size of a few queen matresses and raked that seed in.  Then i covered the entirety of bed 3 in stump grindings to see if the 3way seed mix could be salvaged from certain doom by woody mulchings more likely to encourage fungi than my regular compost which is probably bacterially dominated.



Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: Al_Smith on November 07, 2021, 07:34:48 AM
Speaking of seeds .Usually I have a couple of bird feeders out in winter time .Come spring time I get some interesting types of stuff growing under them from the birds being sloppy .Maybe I could blame the squirrels . 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: mike_belben on November 07, 2021, 07:49:10 AM
I made bird feeders for my old buddy up the road thats always bringing us food, i think hes 83.  I jacked his house up yesterday actually and forgot to bring home the sprouted greens from under the feeders for my chickens like i usually do.  Glad you reminded me.  The more i pick it the more it produces. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: mike_belben on November 07, 2021, 08:21:19 AM
Youve gotta see the "check strip" in this vid 2 minutes in and how many overwinter weeds no longer need to be sprayed down to plant spring soybean.  Also i keep hearing "the haney test" measures the value of organic matter and saves a ton on fertilizers compared to university soil analysis. Shown in this one.

Treating the Farm as an Ecosystem Part 2 with Russell Hedrick - YouTube (https://youtu.be/RARFGkX3HBI)



In this next video at minute 30 ray archiletta explains how tilling a cover crop in causes a bacterial decomposition (and crusting and heavy nitrogen losses) while rolling it over the top causes a fungal decomposition with no losses. 

Soil & Diverse Cover Crops Final Parts UNCUT - YouTube (https://youtu.be/eWkDEL9jF5s)


I downloaded the soilweb app he recommends and it just changed my life.  I was gonna build a house on my best soil and try to clear and crop some of my worst.  I have about 1.5 acres at my back edge adjoining the pasture behind me, that is 85% lily loam with a bit less acid, more depth and double the average organic matter because of its flatness, it doesnt runoff.  classified as "all areas are prime farmland" by US geological maps, plus another big patch across the street thats been highgraded senseless. 

  Without this gps satelite viewer app there was no way id be able to find that patch of mine, ive read the static maps.  Theyre too broad.  In my area only little pockets fall into prime classes and theyre only about 5% of the region total.  Most is 1.4%om and this is 3% 

 What i cant find right now is the photo of growth rate differences in different F:B ratio soils i saw Last week, it was incredible.  Same day potted seedlings at different F:B ratios.  From runt to bumper crop. Microbes are what make soluble nutrients available. Purchasing fertilizer for a crop planted in the wrong ratio soils is just money down the drain.

Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: Southside on November 07, 2021, 09:15:22 AM
Your bird feeder discovery is why 2/3rds of our birds ration is a whole seed product. The other 1/3 is a non GMO complete mash that is only fed under cover. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: mike_belben on November 07, 2021, 09:40:57 AM
Are you sprouting the seed? Or do you mean they pass it and plant it for you?

I have fed quite a bit of whole corn and wheat seed that gets wasted.  Every other day i go into my compost bins and get half a bucket of broken down sawdust/food scrap mix and a handful of soldier fly larvae and toss it in the coop in different areas.  They scratch it in and cover the waste seed.  I think were about 3" deep now and im eager to see what theyve planted for me when i move the coop. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: Southside on November 07, 2021, 10:03:03 AM
No we don't sprout it, when cleaning out a brooder the larger hens will dig through the litter to find what is sprouted in there.  Just feed it whole, what they don't eat gets scrached in and eventually sprouts up and something eats it.  Generally they aren't big on straight wheat I find.  Seems the best consumption is a mix of millett, wheat, safflower, sunflower, fine cracked corn, and some milo.  
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: mike_belben on November 07, 2021, 10:42:56 AM
Thats exactly whats in the local grown 7grain scratch i get from a mill in town.  I ferment that stuff and added in winter wheat since i had to buy a sack of it and wont live long enough to plant it all at this rate. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: Firewoodjoe on November 07, 2021, 11:58:46 AM
Quote from: Southside on November 06, 2021, 11:44:36 PM
You are correct that the prussic acid issue increases after a hard frost, and during drought stress, but in the case of frost it disappates a few days after and becomes safe to graze again.  In the case of drought stress the plant is safe after you can see the drought stress has passed and the plant looks healthy and vibrant again.  We got our first hard frost (28F) night before last, so what is left of my Johnson Grass will be go again by Monday at the latest.  

The sorguhums are also nitrate accumulators so you want to be careful about growing it on heavily fertilized ground.  
So do you think it's safe now that it was frosted a few times and it's all paper brown this morning. Some was green yet towards the bottom yesterday but not now. It's old Christmas tree ground and I only put 40 pounds of 12-12-12 on it just because it was on sale so nitrogen should be no issues. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: Southside on November 07, 2021, 12:32:51 PM
My rule of thumb is 3 days after a killing frost. Always better to wait if unsure. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: newoodguy78 on November 07, 2021, 04:33:35 PM
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/40841/98ACE499-DF7C-4F62-A297-F0E512C8DA0E.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1636320635)
 Mike if this makes the ears on my corn so heavy I can't lift the bags I'm calling you :D
1/2 composted horse manure 1/2 sawdust and rotting bark. Spread right on top of my cover crop didn't till it in.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: mike_belben on November 07, 2021, 06:58:49 PM
I hope it pulls the stalks over and you hafta grow them on pallets.  ;D


Dont forget to wizz on it.. Or spray something sugary. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: newoodguy78 on November 07, 2021, 07:24:22 PM
How'd you know what I was doing behind the spreader tire from where you're at?  :D
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: Southside on November 07, 2021, 09:09:41 PM
Given any thought to just composting the horse and skipping several steps?  :D
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: mike_belben on November 07, 2021, 09:37:01 PM
Not to be a critic or anything but ya might wanna get a bungee or something to keep the remotes out of the driveshaft. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: newoodguy78 on November 08, 2021, 12:23:21 AM
Quote from: Southside on November 07, 2021, 09:09:41 PM
Given any thought to just composting the horse and skipping several steps?  :D
That's a question I will not answer in public  ;D
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: moodnacreek on November 08, 2021, 08:38:53 AM
Quote from: mike_belben on November 07, 2021, 06:58:49 PM
I hope it pulls the stalks over and you hafta grow them on pallets.  ;D


Dont forget to wizz on it.. Or spray something sugary.
There is a difference.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: Tom King on November 08, 2021, 09:05:39 AM
Monsanto is coming for you.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: newoodguy78 on November 08, 2021, 09:19:23 AM
Send em   ;D
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: mike_belben on November 08, 2021, 12:52:41 PM
 :D
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: mike_belben on November 09, 2021, 11:54:18 AM
I dont think its been a week yet and the portion of plot 3 that i covered in a light film of stump grindings has shown signs of improvement.  The corner of that plot that i mulched in SGs shortly after seeding has great germination of wheat and clover so far, the best in my yard.  2nd place is the corn plot that i mulched in grass from bag mower, and in 3rd is the bare dirt bed that is rows of brassica overseeded entirely in clover to have thinning for the chickens.  

A billion little green heads have popped up on that bed but the soil crusted and it seems to be stalling growth.. I think the morning dew is evaporating instead of soaking it.  I just covered half that bed in SGs to test the difference.


I am very in favor of mulching right ontop of seed at this point.. I do have a lot of cardinals eating seed from the bed 1 every morning but im happy to see them.  It would be a factor if this was about money and heavy mulch would eliminate seed loss by bird.  


I wonder if variable mulching thickness could be used to time the ripening of something you want in small successive batches.  It certainly takes longer for emergence from a big clump of woody matter.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: newoodguy78 on November 12, 2021, 09:56:28 AM
@Firewoodjoe (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=24659) have you put your cows on the Sudan grass yet, how are they liking it?
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: Firewoodjoe on November 12, 2021, 06:47:56 PM
No I haven't. There's a large patch by a old hole that grew exponentially well. 9-12 feet tall I'd say and it's still green. Wet juicy. It's not worth the risk for me. My luck they will run straight to that patch and die lol  i was hoping to Sunday. It's been below freezing a few times now. It's a cross of Sudan and sorghum and sorghum has the prussic acid in it. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: Southside on November 12, 2021, 07:27:47 PM
Oddly enough my Johnson Grass is all brown and gone, but my Indian Grass, which is in the Sorghum family is still green and not showing any signs of stress from several frosts. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: mike_belben on November 13, 2021, 11:19:13 AM
Years ago i watched a few long covercrop discussions showing soil.changes and improved water infiltration rates.  Just recently stumbled onto the guy again, it is dave brant and he started covers in '77 on a dead farm in ohio. today he has like 22 inches of chocolate cake and grows pretty epic corn with low inputs.



Anyway he continually found that a legume alone is not as effective as say a legume and a grass or broadleaf.  It turns out the non nitrogen fixers basically take N off the legume who alone is only fixing enough N for his own needs.  But legumes are generous neighbors... When sown in combinations they will fix more N in larger nodules to share with the crowd.  So the right planting combos doesnt create nitrogen scarcity, but abundance.  

I will try corn, clover and cowpea this year.  


Another dave brandt thing is that his neighbors are trying to plant corn in april and burning through fuel tilling in crusted or and muddy bare soils.  Dave lets his winter covers get thick and tall.  In june rolls/drills into a firm dry field. Has charted fuel consumption for decades and saves 3-5gal per acre planting into a rolled cover.  His ground far outproduces the neighbors in B/acre even with shorter window.

The covers are swarming with insects when he rolls. Theyre in a balance that has allowed him to stop pesticide applications because the predator species keep the pest species under control.  3 days later dark green corn emerges from a wavy coulter slot in dense stubble without any N application. 


Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: newoodguy78 on November 13, 2021, 11:35:56 AM
Quote from: Firewoodjoe on November 12, 2021, 06:47:56 PM
No I haven't. There's a large patch by a old hole that grew exponentially well. 9-12 feet tall I'd say and it's still green. Wet juicy. It's not worth the risk for me. My luck they will run straight to that patch and die lol  i was hoping to Sunday. It's been below freezing a few times now. It's a cross of Sudan and sorghum and sorghum has the prussic acid in it.
I'd be on the cautious side too especially with my luck  :D
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: newoodguy78 on November 13, 2021, 11:38:11 AM
I was listening to a couple of David's seminars yesterday working in the shop. Smart guy. The cover crop bug has bit me hard. :D
Did you see some of his radishes  :o
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: mike_belben on November 13, 2021, 12:16:31 PM
Yeah they look like prosthetic limbs!   ;D
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: mike_belben on November 16, 2021, 09:31:58 AM
Forage Crops for Maximum Livestock Nutrition with Paige Smart - YouTube (https://youtu.be/c_EglHtWlyE)


i have gained a lot of unique info from Paige Smart in this video, part 1 and 2.  its primarily grazing forages but much much stuff i have not come across in a solid year of studying up, all in one spot.  i will watch this one over and over through the years.

my winter wheat came up first then kinda paused.  wherever the little baby clover and winter pea has come up with it, the wheat is back on a growth spurt and thickening.  so its starting to look obvious now that its been pointed out to me where to actually look, that the wheat is getting nitrogen from the legumes and not from the dirt.  this is the bed where the corn sucked up what little fertility i had started it on and never added anything additional.  
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: newoodguy78 on November 16, 2021, 11:23:01 AM
The legumes after corn is a smart move in my opinion. It takes good ground to grow good corn. I enjoy growing it but there's no doubt in my mind it's harder on the ground than anything else we plant. Just sucks up everything. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: mike_belben on November 16, 2021, 01:19:47 PM
im pretty sure i said it here earlier and iirc its gabe brown who grows corn with legume.  i wanna say cowpea interseeded and it increases corn yields.  then youve got extra tonnage in the stubble to graze off and no bare ground.  between combining the corn and putting the cows out would be a good time to broadcast a winter cover mix for the cows to mash in.

and now im getting foggy on where i encountered that the more demand on a legume the more it fixes nitrogen nodules.. not only larger but also more potent.  if you dig up a root and find the little balls then crack them open, pink vs green shows how much fixation is going on.  the legume doesnt take that much itself so seeded alone the nodules will be small and i think its green.  when mixed with heavy feeders the non legumes make synergistic deals and demand for more nitrogen off the legume. i guess that explains why my crimson and rye did so well this past spring.


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/0511211644_Film3~0.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1637086661)




thats may 11th, seeded in fall.  middle of the woods, just on the side of a logging trail under a thinned but pretty full canopy other than the road.  no lime or fertilizer.  not prime dirt by any means other than a high fungal content. 


just around the corner with a little more light but otherwise same with the exception that i scalped the topsoil off 3x or so in the past and piled it for a while.  to plant, i raked a few inches off the corner of that pile onto basically a clay road bed then seeded.  
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/0511211637_Film3~0.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1637086610)

Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: wisconsitom on November 16, 2021, 01:52:26 PM
Another way to look at legume/N fixation;  If soil already has adequate N, little fixation.....poor, infertile soil, plenty of N fixation.

All over the natural world are such relationships.  Even just using chemical fertilizers can all but eliminate most mycorrhizal fungi.  Little need by parent plant for such fungal associates when soil already rich in nutrients.  It would be a bit like a human taking vitamins, but with no actual knowledge of whether or not said vitamin(s) is or are in short supply.  There will be no response where there was no deficiency.

Gotta wonder Mike if the guy you reference isn't one and the same as farmer I saw on tv recently-very much the iconoclast-going WAY against common big-ag practice.  I can't recount all now but one thing really stood out-he grows corn only where soil indicates already adequate N and other nutes!  Talk about a different approach!  Most big (and medium [and most small, heehee]) farmers happily send their topsoil into the ditches and streams every spring and then again in the fall.  Chocolate pudding after every heavy rain or snow melt.  Going.....going....gone!  That topsoil was just a place to hold the chemicals.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: Southside on November 16, 2021, 06:09:37 PM
A better time to sow your cover crop into corn is right before it closes together. The rains will beat the seed into the soil and it will sit there in the shade all summer and do nothing. About the time the corn starts to dry down and more sun hits the ground it germinates.  By the time the corn is off your cover crop is 6" tall and going full steam ahead. Eliminates bare soil and really reduces late summer weed pressure such as Palmer Pigweed. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: newoodguy78 on November 16, 2021, 07:19:10 PM
I'm looking to experiment next year with the corn. Thinking about a clover Sudan grass buckwheat mix put on as I cultivate. What I don't want is it to get too high. We hand pick everything so knee high or anything above your ankles really becomes a pain when picking. Timing of planting it would be key. 
When it was done being picked I'd like to just bush hog it off and let the sun have at it. 
Read good things about yellow sweet clover being put in this way. 
That was done with field corn however. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: Southside on November 16, 2021, 08:26:40 PM
I think the Sudan might be competition. If you could precision plant it and the corn was say 36" to 40" rows then I wouldn't be as concerned. 

Yellow sweet will get tall and "brushy" for lack of a better term. Up your way a crimson / annual white clover mix would likely give you a one / two punch. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: mike_belben on November 16, 2021, 09:51:18 PM
YSC is very stemmy.  i have it growing wild, over my head in spots.  youd need a machete to walk through a mature stand of it and then itd be trailing behind your ankles.  high stepping required. 

Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: newoodguy78 on November 16, 2021, 09:53:21 PM
The Sudan competition is something I've thought about hard  Stuff works well for me in this ground would like it to work but in that application not so sure. I'm banking on red clover this year for sure, have 100 acres of it planted at about 10#\acre mixed in my cocktails now.

Ideally  like to put something in at the last cultivation that would be it for the summer and carry through the winter as well, by just bush hogging the corn down and leaving it. The vlume of trash on top of the cover is another issue. That would eliminate a bunch of field field work.

I plant on 30" rows while it's easy to adjust the planter I like that spacing. Sweet corn by nature doesn't shade the row like field corn near as well, if I went wider the natural weed suppression would be compromised in my opinion. Have toyed with putting the early plantings on 24" spacing just to help shade the row better. The early varieties don't germinate as well nor do they produce as much foliage. Weeds in the early corn are a real issue.

The " brushy" nature of the yellow makes me hesitant to interseed it. There's enough work picking as it is without making walking miserable.
Do have about an acre and half that's mostly yellow with a little red and a few radishes mixed in. Plan to let the yellow just about reach maturity then disk it in and plant the ground with no fertilizer at all. Certainly a trial run into uncharted territory for these parts.
What I've read on yellow clover is a good stand planted  at 20-25#\acre puts between 125-150 pounds of N to the acre into the ground. If that's actually the case growing cheaper to us corn is a reality. Time will tell.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: newoodguy78 on November 16, 2021, 09:59:38 PM
Quote from: mike_belben on November 16, 2021, 09:51:18 PM
YSC is very stemmy.  i have it growing wild, over my head in spots.  youd need a machete to walk through a mature stand of it and then itd be trailing behind your ankles.  high stepping required.
I always have a machete in my truck or tractor during the season but have no desire to use it picking corn   ;D. Also high stepping with a bag of corn in front of me no longer sounds like fun either. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: Southside on November 16, 2021, 10:47:19 PM
I think Abruzzi Rye planted at your last cultivation would be fine.  Sudan is going to grow in the same weather as your corn. Abruzzi is going to sit there and wait for the days to shorten and cool more before it really takes off, then as you said - it's done after the stalks are addressed.  That would make for great fall stocker feed.  Protein in the rye / clover mix and dry matter in the corn stover.  

Down this way Abruzzi will run about $11 / BU, plant 2 to the acre.  
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: newoodguy78 on November 16, 2021, 10:49:42 PM
I'll be reading up on that. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: Southside on November 16, 2021, 10:56:22 PM
FWIW in the spring I will leave strips of winter annual - Abruzzi, Gulf Rye Grass, etc. ungrazed and let it go to seed.  The next round it's hard seed and the cows spread it for me. Most years even without that I will get 30%-50% seed production on the second or third rotation anyway so I get a lot of "free seed" every year.  That "free seed" begins to germinate around October after the warm season grasses have run out, they don't compete at all with the warm season stuff even though they are there in the soil the whole time.  Same thing happens with my crab grass, it goes to partial seed ususally once during the summer, and again in late September / October, but none of that germinates until probably May or so. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: newoodguy78 on November 17, 2021, 01:30:57 PM
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/40841/54E6B2F1-81DC-4E13-BC73-4A2A57375F56.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1637173786)
 
Bring on the nutrients 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: mike_belben on November 17, 2021, 02:30:04 PM
awesome.  i just looked those guys up.  seems like they do a pretty tidy business.  did bulk order get you below the $10/yd theyre advertising?


i hope it works out well.  a yard of fertilizer would sure cost a lot more and wont do the microbial life any favors. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: newoodguy78 on November 17, 2021, 07:28:39 PM
Not sure if you looked up the same guy I'm dealing with. There appears to be quite a few Martin farms within in trucking distance  :D . The first one that came up for me was a composting facility. These folks are out of Ghent NY. Been great to deal with so far and  seems quite knowledgeable.  He's charging by the ton. 25/ton delivered not sure exactly but guessing works out to around 15/yard? 
Got to look at the fertilizer bill for this year :o :o, oh my. Can only imagine what it's headed for next year.  The savings to the farm is potentially phenomenal if this works out. If it doesn't most likely will be looking for work. 

Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: Southside on November 17, 2021, 08:00:05 PM
Quote from: newoodguy78 on November 17, 2021, 07:28:39 PMIf it doesn't most likely will be looking for work.


Air conditioned cab tractor.....:D
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: newoodguy78 on November 17, 2021, 08:09:12 PM
 :D :D Is "layering" frowned on if it got too cold in the cab? :D
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: btulloh on November 17, 2021, 08:25:55 PM
I get the feeling that it's going to work out. I'm looking forward to seeing the results.  popcorn_smiley
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: mike_belben on November 17, 2021, 09:02:46 PM
Martins farm compost out of greenfield.  $10/yd for just straight chip.  

Im sure youre moving in the right direction.  If you whip up a compost tea and innoculate the pile itll go even further toward fungal decomposition instead of bacterial which the voices in my head are saying would be good.  Even just adding some punky fluffy oak debris from the nearest rotten log would ensure a quicker micorhizal breakdown. You dont want this to be a hot steamy compost.  Thats bacteria.  


I will bet your earthworm count jumps right up by spring.  

I cant remember if it was gabe brown or dave brandt who made the claim that a certain amount of earthworms can completely "turn" your soil in X amount of time.  So i watched some glass window earthworm composting timelapses.  Holy cow they really do spin dirt around. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: Southside on November 17, 2021, 09:16:40 PM
Man have you checked into the cost to have 2,4-D and Roundup aerial applied from an un numbered and un lit helicopter at night, in June, there in your neck of the woods?  I was a bit surprised but consider it to be a good recrutiment investment.  At least he takes bitcoin.  :D
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: newoodguy78 on November 17, 2021, 10:39:11 PM
If you're going to that extent have em throw some gramoxone and hell-fire in with the mix. What's a little more bitcoin  :D
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: newoodguy78 on November 17, 2021, 10:47:28 PM
Quote from: mike_belben on November 17, 2021, 09:02:46 PM
Martins farm compost out of greenfield.  $10/yd for just straight chip.  

Im sure youre moving in the right direction.  If you whip up a compost tea and innoculate the pile itll go even further toward fungal decomposition instead of bacterial which the voices in my head are saying would be good.  Even just adding some punky fluffy oak debris from the nearest rotten log would ensure a quicker micorhizal breakdown. You dont want this to be a hot steamy compost.  Thats bacteria.  


I will bet your earthworm count jumps right up by spring.  

I cant remember if it was gabe brown or dave brandt who made the claim that a certain amount of earthworms can completely "turn" your soil in X amount of time.  So i watched some glass window earthworm composting timelapses.  Holy cow they really do spin dirt around.
I'll be looking into the compost guys. Those loads are chicken manure, slightly hotter than compost. plan on spreading around 4 tons/acre on corn ground and eliminating 80 percent of the fertilizer application the first year. Call me crazy that's what I'm trying.
The landowner those loads are on already told me it won't work. Challenge accepted.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: Southside on November 17, 2021, 11:15:30 PM
Do you need a nutrient management plan there to use manure? 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: mike_belben on November 17, 2021, 11:19:31 PM
nice.  i am confident it will work much better if spread on the surface overwinter and undisturbed until you seed in whatever is next, rather than tilled in. i had stump grindings dumped here maybe 2, 3 weeks ago.  its already turning to dirt. 

the chipped branch pile from the powerline ROW clearing guys last week is quite steamy.. my dogs have been digging holes into it and sleeping on top at night.  not a bad idea. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: mike_belben on November 17, 2021, 11:20:48 PM
Quote from: Southside on November 17, 2021, 09:16:40 PM
Man have you checked into the cost to have 2,4-D and Roundup aerial applied from an un numbered and un lit helicopter at night, in June, there in your neck of the woods?  I was a bit surprised but consider it to be a good recrutiment investment.  At least he takes bitcoin.  :D
uhh.. do what now?   :D
nutrient management plan for manure?  what a crock of shhh..   ;D
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: newoodguy78 on November 17, 2021, 11:41:37 PM
From what I've been able to find out there's no nutrient plan needed. When you get into some of these larger confinement  facilities they fall under different guidelines. All dairies in this state aren't supposed to spread any manure after the 15th of December I believe is. Not sure when it comes off in the spring. Not a fan of that regulation.
There is certain guidelines for spreading on produce ground depending on the crop. Different manures have a different number of days they can be applied prior to harvest. Those all seem logical and very easy to abide by.
All season I spread fresh  horse manure yet I will not put it anywhere near a field with marketable crops in it. It all went on fallow or cover cropped ground.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: mike_belben on November 18, 2021, 12:01:15 AM
regarding manures. 

Bio Minerals Technologies on Vimeo (https://vimeo.com/channels/1067183)
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: Southside on November 18, 2021, 12:21:48 AM
The longer it sits on the surface the more nitrogen you loose to ammonia volitization. Not to mention with hen dressing the more neighbors you tick off. 

The December 15th rule is basically universal in that the idea is you don't spread onto frozen ground. Doing so results in nitrogen leaching into surface water, algae blooms, etc. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: mike_belben on November 18, 2021, 06:57:42 AM
Kens claim in the vid i linked above is basically that the only way a single manure application is going to reduce fertilizer inputs long term is if its contribution is correct microbial life, not NPK.  Spread raw it is pathogenic and anaerobic which is why nutrients volatize off as ammonia, phosphine gas, methane and hydrogen sulfide.  Lethal in confinement.  

I would compost it with moldy hay, straw, leaves, woodchips, old pumpkins etc etc.  Aerobic material is important.  It needs turned.  

One could trial both ways to figure out if its true or not. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: mike_belben on November 18, 2021, 10:25:26 AM

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/1118210827.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1637247891)


atomic breakdown of all elements in plant matter suggests carbon makes up 40x more plant tissue than nitrogen.


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/0812201400~2.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1597258694)


Elaine Ingham claiming silt sand clay and pebbles possess sufficient N for plant growth if the biological components required to release them are present

Do You Need to Remineralize Soils? featuring Dr. Elaine Ingham - YouTube (https://youtu.be/08v-0j9U-Ck)

Nitrogen breakdown flow chart from a researchgate paper.  Seems to support the claims that the form of nitrogen microbial life ties up is not plant soluble anyway, until the microbes are done digesting it and each other.  I dont fully understand that so forgive me if im wrong.


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/1637248145577.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1637247975)




Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: newoodguy78 on November 18, 2021, 10:00:52 PM
 
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/40841/489486BD-DDEB-425E-A109-02644F066EB2.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1637290051)
 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/40841/F997DFD5-0464-4F15-95A8-E794B40C941A.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1637289900)
 
These strips are 40-50' apart in the same field. Planted on the same day. With the same mix wheat red clover and daikon radishes. Both grew the same crops.  The top one had composted horse manure and half the suggested rate of fertilizer used prior to planting the original crop. Was also disked up well just before cover went in.
Bottom picture had the suggested amount of fertilizer used with no compost. The strip was disked probably 2-3 weeks prior to planting and let sit then went in and " no-tilled" the cover in.
The difference is dramatic, radishes are 1 1/2 to 2" diameter and 8-10" long. Wheat is 12-16" tall , the clover understory has leaves the size of dimes. Everything is very lush and healthy looking. 
The other one wheat is 6-8", radishes 1/2 -3/4" , 4-6" long the clover has leaves are the size of a paper punch. All the foliage just doesn't have a healthy look to it 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: newoodguy78 on November 18, 2021, 10:28:39 PM
Quote from: btulloh on November 17, 2021, 08:25:55 PM
I get the feeling that it's going to work out. I'm looking forward to seeing the results.  popcorn_smiley
I don't remember if it was in this thread or not, appreciate you questioning the recommended fertilizer rates. The answers that were given when I asked the hard questions really made me start questioning them and looking elsewhere. Definitely keep you posted. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: mike_belben on November 18, 2021, 11:24:21 PM
100 likes on your results.

What is the bare dirt from ? disking ahead of a planter?  

Did you take any pics of the covers up close?  
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: btulloh on November 18, 2021, 11:37:57 PM
I think that discussion was in your first post when you were saying how much fertilizer you were putting down at planting. There's just no way the N put down would still be available in the soil 4-6 weeks after planting when it would be beneficial. It is certainly beneficial to the fertilizer vendor though!

Looks like you're on the way to some better methods though. The chicken manure/straw mixture mentioned a few replies back is magic if you can get enough.  I think ideally you still need some N applied when it's about past your your knee high.  The good thing is, the leaf color tells you how the N is holding up. If it's deep green you're good, and if it's lighter green or looking a little yellow, there's not enough N. 

The soil improvement being discussed in this thread is very interesting and it's not something I know much about, but it seems like it should be pursued. I do know there's a lot of discussion about it now in big ag and the benefits beyond the standard fertilizer approach that is the SOP now in commercial corn and bean production. I'm learning more about it in this thread, but it's all new to me.

You've got a bit of a tightrope to walk since your making changes to the farms methods that are producing predictable results, so good on ya for taking on the challenge. If that's wood chips I see you dumping on now, make sure you keep an eye on the pH impact and make corrections in advance and not after the fact.

All very interesting and I'll be interested to see how things turn out (and how much your fertilizer costs go down!).
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: mike_belben on November 19, 2021, 12:15:38 AM
Please dont misinterpret your results..  That manure didnt increase the vigor of your cover crop because of nitrogen.  The magic that you added was carbon and aerobic microbial innoculation.  The 3 way cover had some synergistic diversity that helped demand more atmospheric N be fixated by the clover to feed the wheat and radish, and the root exudates from that cover fed the microbial life that you brought in with the manure.  


I hope your next comparison no matter how small, is rolling or trampling that cover down and planting into it with no soil disturbance.  Please please please try it.  ONE SHEET of plywood laid on the cover crop for 3 days and hand plant or foot stomp in your next cash crop in that one tiny spot just to show the owner the difference between tillage and drilling into terminated cover.  it is a huge difference in every single control group comparison i have encountered.  i have yet to see a video showing how it did not produce incredible results. 


That tillage is killing fungi, earthworms, soil structure, embedded oxygen capacity and water infiltration and storage rates.  I proved it to myself by plowing this year and setting things backward immediately.  Had to see for myself. Yup, mistake.

Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: moodnacreek on November 19, 2021, 07:57:57 AM
N.W.G., that can't be N.H., there are no rocks :D.         Nice fields.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: btulloh on November 19, 2021, 08:25:46 AM
All good points Mike.  Eliminating tillage has so many benefits that it can't be ignored. 

The necessity of N availability in the proper amounts has to be taken into account too.  Best yield N rates is well known through many studies and test plots at major universities all over, so the target is well defined. 50 lbs N/acre at planting and 100-120 lbs N/acre when N uptake peaks starting at the six leaf stage. Then the question becomes how to make the N available in the right amounts at the right times. 

I'm learning about some of those new (actually old) ways here in this thread. The challenge for NWG is to transition to new methods and not negatively impact production or the bottom line. 

A couple good reads: 

https://content.ces.ncsu.edu/organic-sweet-corn-production (https://content.ces.ncsu.edu/organic-sweet-corn-production)

https://www.agry.purdue.edu/ext/corn/news/timeless/NitrogenMgmt.pdf (https://www.agry.purdue.edu/ext/corn/news/timeless/NitrogenMgmt.pdf)
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: newoodguy78 on November 19, 2021, 09:10:37 AM
Quote from: moodnacreek on November 19, 2021, 07:57:57 AM
N.W.G., that can't be N.H., there are no rocks :D.         Nice fields.
Certainly not N.H, I take it you've seen that farm land. Chunks of granite with a little clay mixed in where I'm from  :D . This ground is in southern mass.
That little valley is about 20 acres nice ground but needs some work. Picked 2 stones down there this season, one clinker and the other one wouldn't have hurt anything but got bored disking and wanted to stretch my legs. ;D
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: newoodguy78 on November 19, 2021, 10:00:19 AM
@btulloh (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=29962) you certainly understand the situation I'm up against. Can't argue the fact the practices used here in the past are what built this place. Been trying different methods without disrupting the supply chain so to speak, I'm not comfortable banking on any one practice without some sort of backup plan. There's enough challenges to this farming deal that can't be controlled without adding my mistakes to the mix. 
The only real capital investment that's been made is a grain drill and a wider selection of cover crop seeds. That saved me one pass over 100 acres. Value of that ? No idea but the fuel and time savings alone was noticed by the boss. Figured out the savings on mixing my own cocktail of seeds (and finding a different source)saved somewhere around 1500-2000 dollars over last years rye seed bill. Running them through a drill you use less than broadcasting n scratching them in as well with a better catch.
Not my money however the return on investment was pretty fast in my opinion. 
Three things that make me very leery about a total transition to a complete no-till "regenerative " system. 
1- no one that I know of is doing it with the diversity of crops that are here. Corn and pumpkins yes I've seen good results. 
2-There is no talk from these guys that are very good at it about the financial struggles during the transition period. Their systems work for them but take time to achieve. Again they're growing different crops. 
3- The capital investment is huge on this scale. Made some major repairs to equipment and finally working with decent equipment. Wouldn't mind using it versus working on it all the time. The equipment here was ROUGH when I started. Like to see a return to the farm on money already spent on repairs and upgrades
By no means am I sayin everything I've done is correct some of it has produced results though. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: mike_belben on November 19, 2021, 10:05:06 AM
great work bronado.  you getting energized to experiment justifies the time i spend typing away in this thread.  thank you for sticking your neck out.

Update Your Browser | Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/NoTillOnThePlains/videos/359637832555206/)


does this show 2 mason jars for you guys? the soil clod on the left is held together by living organisms that "glue" soil constituents into an aggregate and hold it there in downpours.  the tilled one on the right is obviously an example of how new orleans was built by the midwestern farmer.  i urge you to show the boss and run your own trials.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: btulloh on November 19, 2021, 10:14:06 AM
10-4 on the crop diversity. I haven't seen anything about no-till on anything other than corn, wheat, and soybeans. Root crops and leaf crops would be a whole 'nother thing. I suppose it would require separate areas for no-till corn from the other stuff. What you've got going there is a scaled up version of what i used to do here when I was raising a big garden and a couple acres of sweet corn - working up the whole thing and planting all the various things.  I didn't have any bottom line to worry about though since it was just a hobby thing. I gave a lot of produce away but I never made a nickel on any of it.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: mike_belben on November 19, 2021, 10:20:49 AM
Quote from: btulloh on November 19, 2021, 10:14:06 AMI gave a lot of produce away but I never made a nickel on any of it.
oh i know someone who keeps a ledger on such things. good on you sir. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: btulloh on November 19, 2021, 10:34:16 AM
Well that's why it was worth the effort. Not to mention things like pecan pies and such that got dropped off by the ladies I gave stuff to.  So there were many benefits, just not monetary. I don't miss trying to keep up with picking fifty tomato plants and a hundred pepper plants though. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: mike_belben on November 19, 2021, 10:35:50 AM
getting along with the neighbors is always the right way to live. tall fences have cost this country a lot in goodwill lost. 

alrighty, this one is NC late fall early winter.  note the neighboring cow pasture grazed to dust.


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/1119210919.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1637335216)


this is a check strip down the center of an overwinter cover crop mix


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/1119210919a.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1637335182)


the cover crop was rolled and planted in soybean in may and the photo was taken in june. it shows how much weed pressure was suppressed by the rolling of a cover.  the check strip is left alone and you can see the last of the cereal grass mat remaining where the soy hasnt poked through yet.  


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/1119210919b.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1637335185)


i imagine it woulda took a lot of tillage or spray for the soy seed to emerge through that overwinter weed bed. thats an extra pass no matter how you look at it. how many bushels come off the top to put the fuel in at $4 diesel?  how many bushels to pay for spray and laborer wage?  how many bushels for fertilizer expense?

he is planting into that cover crop with a conventional planter and laying the cover down with literally a fencepost dangling by chains off the front bumper to lay the cover.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: mike_belben on November 19, 2021, 10:51:27 AM
next up.  tally up the value of inputs those radishes gets you in micros and macros in addition to soil armor and deep tilling. 


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/1637334245157.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1637335306)


 they put a root down to a new depth in compacted soils, one where a root didnt exist.  now that a root is there root exudates flow down into a deeper soil layer and pave the way for the microbial life that will feed on this liquid carbon, amino acid whateverall the root is leaking out that attracts the biology to dig deep and repair that compaction.

btulloh you beat me to it with your link this morning, showing a diminishing return on N applied to corn after corn. 

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/1637334015906.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1637335301)



 

Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: Southside on November 19, 2021, 10:59:48 AM
Like anything the solution is balance. No-till is an excellent practice, until your soil is rock hard and moisture just runs off of it. Your only weed control becomes chemical in many cases.

Mold board plowing is great for turning under sod, but will create a plow pan in the right conditions and again cause issues with water and root infiltration.

Vertical tillage is a good compromise when used with a constant crop / green manure system that can build soil and give you non chemical control of weed pressure.

Often the solution is a combination of all of the above. I used an offset disc to breakup no-till corn ground this fall and put it into alfalfa. The plan is to leave it that way for 5 years. Might then put in a Sudan X crop for one season then back to alfalfa. Conditions at that time will decide. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: btulloh on November 19, 2021, 11:11:50 AM
Good info. 

The radish contribution blows me away. I like to eat radishes but I never knew what the could bring to the party. Wow.

Mike, what about N volatility over time? Any comparison of how different types of N sources last in the ground?
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: mike_belben on November 19, 2021, 11:57:01 AM
these next 3 are a bit disturbing when we look at the dates.  it seems that somehow, someone or somemany rather, managed to keep some pretty handy info suppressed for most of a century.  i know we had ww1, the great depression and ww2 to thank for the corporatization and consolidation into big Ag from subsistence farming.  the availability of information was much more challenging until now, but we had the land grant university system from lincoln's day that was supposed to use extension service to educate the unwashed redneck masses.  i dont know who to point the finger at but 2 things come to mind.  one is the memory of a scientist interview where the researcher describes the changes that occurred to his industry when "global warming" showed up.  since everything is run on grants, he could no longer just be studying the mating habits of squirrels.  it had to be the mating habits of squirrels with respect to global warming or the project would not get funded. the central pocket book forces the science industry to become believers or become bankrupters. 

the second thing that comes to mind when i contemplate this, is that all the fertilizers and various blank-0-cides have bought an awful lot of pretty shiny things with the farmers' checkbook in the last century, while he got old and broke and sold out to a subdivider to pay for senior medical care. bit of an outrage when ya think of it, an institutional scale fleecing. 


so by 1912 american research concluded successful yields could be had without N additions using legumes in coplantings.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/1637333960208.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1637335320)


we knew by the 1930s that white roots matter.  note the middle column is the quantity of microbes found in immediate area of plant roots vs just randomly out in the soil.  it takes a plant at all times to keep dirt alive, period. and this is OLD news that everyone should know.  the common person knows more about a celeb they will never meet than the food they will die in a few weeks without. this shows that clover is one lively son of a gum.  1.13 billion microbes are found per one gram of root mass. 
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/1637333940123.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1637335319)



this one i am still confused on as rick haney glossed over it in a few seconds on a presentation video.  i will try to find his email to get clarification.  i think it shows us that by 1934, we understood that tillage absolutely massacres the quantity of microbes in a soil. lucerne is alfalfa, a legume.  i believe this is showing us when you till the microbes in the soil cannot live away from the root mass any longer so any dirt without a living root becomes lifeless.  im not sure if it suggests that the tilled soil microbes die or that they just lunge over to the nearest root.



(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/1637333988942.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1637335308)


if i were selling synthetic fertilizers and found this information, the first thing i would do is ensure every single bag says "step 1:  till the seedbed"  


 and i will paraphrase in a little more i have picked up in my travels. without microbial life, naturally occurring minerals in the soil are not converted to plant soluble form.  all these little micro bugs that eat each other have a C:N ratio to their composition.  if critter A needs a 3:1 ratio and it feeds on another critter that has a 1:1 ratio then it has to eat 3 of them, arriving at a 3:3 C/N ratio that it cant maintain so and it then farts out the two spare nitrogens in plant soluble form.


this next one is from rick haneys research in the 1990s.  today he is the guy pretty famous for "the haney test" which apparently is saving farmers tremendous amounts of money by crediting the nitrogen already present in the soils thereby reducing N input and still getting the same yield.  basically not wasting fertilizer that the co-op test will insist you purchase.  his tests are radically, radically different than conventional soil tests and he was completely rejected by the university system early on (with a PHD in soil and working as a Ag Research Service agent for USDA!) 


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/1637333916073.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1637335327)


plotting carbon release on 3 different soil sites that increase in fertility as you go down.  so thats why we need well draining soils, aha! the dirt doesnt cycle carbon and nutrients if it doesnt have wet and dry cycles. i guess that explains why irrigation pays. why cover crops that are slick with morning dew in between rain events pay. the larger the biomass of a big green fluff of plant matter, the more surface area to collect frost and condensate to moisten the soil that will be dried in the afternoon sun and wind then moistened again by the morning dew.  the more protection from frost, the slower the thermal cycling etc etc.  
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: mike_belben on November 19, 2021, 12:13:05 PM
Quote from: btulloh on November 19, 2021, 11:11:50 AM

Mike, what about N volatility over time? Any comparison of how different types of N sources last in the ground?
i personally have absolutely no idea on any of this, im clueless. just repeating information i consumed. i read too much to remember, and then type the most pertinent of what i read as a memory exercise, since im losing a lot of it.  plus then i can go back to the thread in a year and read my own highlights when i dont remember any of it.  someone says a topic and ding.. someone else research tidbit pops up and i can type it, it may be right or wrong.  but i still dont really know anything. 
the conventional system educators and salesman obviously all say it gasses off. ken hamilton just popped in my head and i think i linked his vid a few pages back about manure applied raw vs composted that details this.  he says volatilized raw manure gasses are from aerobic putrification, that they are toxic, if i am getting it right. he manufactures microbial products to convert anaerobic manure lagoons to aerobic.  they boil and swirl, i bet it smells awful! ken says you dont buy manure for nitrogen.  you buy it for microbes and they are poisonous ones until you aerobically compost it. 
i think yesterday i read an organic certification requirement preventing the spreading of raw manure to 120 days prior to a crop harvest but none for composted.  that seems to support the belief in folks besides ken that fresh manure microbial life needs a rest period to do something or other.  i think youre gonna volatize the N by the time whatever that is happens regardless. 
as for urea and anhydrous ammonia i have no idea. im sure i can find those who says its a miracle and others who says its a cancer.  i know ammonia refrigerant almost killed me at the scrap yard so i will have none of that in my shed or my salad. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: mike_belben on November 19, 2021, 12:15:24 PM
if your N comes from legumes i dont think there is any losses to worry about.  i am gonna learn how to not pay the co-op for anything but seed.  if there is more yield in some other way i dont care one bit. i want mine free. god made the garden long before the fertilizer plant showed up and im sticking to it. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: btulloh on November 19, 2021, 12:20:21 PM
Well urea and anhydrous are generally said to last about thirty days or so under optimal conditions. I don't know anything about the natural sources. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: mike_belben on November 19, 2021, 12:56:02 PM
with "regenerative" practices it presently seems to me youd have about 3 choices and are probably best used together in the effort to avoid buying N.

1. plant a nitrogen consumer with a nitrogen fixer during the growing season so that the legume is loaded with demands from the cash crop and produces larger nodules of atmospheric nitrogen that go to the cash crop.  

2.  always feed the soil biology with living root exudates and decaying organic matter/carbon so that there is an abundance of microbial life respirating plant soluble nutrients.  eating each other and farting out the excess.

3 is kind of a 2B.. promote micorhizal fungi at all times.  plant roots are limited in their outreach in the search for nutrients but fungal networks are not. google says the largest living thing on earth is a 2300 acre fungus in the malheur national forest that is entirely interconnected.  

my friend grows giant pumpkins for competition, on a pallet. they get moved by forklift.  its not got anything to do with how much N you inject, but how large of a mycorhizal network you can grow.  one pumpkin requires a bed the size of his house and it cannot be disturbed.  sugar and wood chips grow fungus and it definitely changed my gardening experience.  the left side of my garden was always larger than the right.  when i relocated it i discovered a white fuzzy path right into my dirt floor compost bin 10 feet away.  like a maple across the yard drinking from the leachfield.  i started the bin on rock hard clay.  it was chocolate cake 6" below grade when i moved it.


gabe brown is in the dakotas and with only 11 inches rain a year and like 200 days below freezing or something terrible like that, he still manages to grow sweet corn i believe, with cowpea interseeded to feed nitrogen to the corn. i know he is no till, i think he is no fertilizer and iirc occasionally sprays down a cover.  i may be off a bit on some of that as its hard to keep track of all these different producers but i think youd get some good info from his talks. ray archuletta is like a ring leader of all these people.  pretty sure dave brandt is no fertilizer either.  rolling covers in ohio since 77.


i will be testing it all this summer with zero fertilizer or chemical and the minimal ground disturbance i can manage. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: newoodguy78 on November 19, 2021, 01:08:47 PM
Percentage of organic matter plays a large roll in tying up nutrients to be available for plants be it grown or applied. I have no scientific proof just my own thought. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: btulloh on November 19, 2021, 01:42:21 PM
True dat, NWG.

Mike, the N is really for plant and leaves and general vigor. K is for the fruit and P is for blooms.  That's a way over-simplification, but easy to remember.  And then there's the micronutrients and beneficial fungi and soil composition and pH that you've been working on.  Pretty deep subject and I only know enough to be dangerous.

I listen the Rural Radio channel on Sirius if I'm in the car during the day. A lot of crop reports, prices and futures, and news related to ag. Not a bad listen and no drama, just facts and info.  Afternoons tend to be devoted to soil fertility, pest management, best practices, etc.  Some things are a bit like infomercials and some are general research related. Not a must-listen thing, but generally informative and better than politalk or music you hate. Anyway, some of these same things get covered that are in this thread. Some if it's big ag and some it's the more natural practices.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: wisconsitom on November 19, 2021, 02:22:56 PM
Biggest gripe about no-till here in the north is slow spring soil warmup.

There's an even bigger patch of fungus-Armillaria, or honey mushroom up in the UP.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: mike_belben on November 19, 2021, 02:57:51 PM
honey mushroom, thats the one i googled.  

the first link was the forest service saying the biggest one is in oregon but not living in either state im not gonna get in a rick measuring contest about it.

;D


just to reiterate, none of this is me.  i have only succeeded in growing corn one season in my life and it was dent corn from a sack of deer feed. but i ate it anyway.  shows how smart i am!  

the world is changing fast and food cost is outpacing my non-existent income.  kids are growing faster than the paychecks around here so i either put food on the table or turn into a welfare statistic.  i think you can see im pretty motivated to go the former route. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: btulloh on November 19, 2021, 03:31:59 PM
Probably better to grow some maters and peppers and string beans and such and not even mess with corn for your purposes. Sell or trade some maters and peppers to get your corn. Corn takes space, water, nutrients, and practice.  A few mater plants and pepper plants can supply the family during the summer and enough excess to can or freeze or pickle. Much better return on time, space, and investment. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: mike_belben on November 19, 2021, 03:43:24 PM
i already do that.  the corn is the base for the chicken feed. someone in my family is sick and i am trying to produce completely perfect food because of that.  i have to.   the more year round feed i can grow the more high quality critters i can finish relatively quick without buying feed or hay. not just corn.  i have 10 different brassicas planted right now plus cover crop on 3 gardens. will probably grow 20 or so different things this summer.  im clear cutting the entire back acre and a half or so right now while low grade wood price is up.


its nearly impossible to purchase fruit and vegetable that is 100% free of glyphosate, chemical fertilizers, herbicide, pesticide etc or meat that doesnt have antibiotics, growth hormones or a terrible omega 6 to omega 3 ratio. we can thank big Ag for creating the worlds first malnourished, yet obese society.  thats all for a whole other thread. this crop stuff is a fraction of how much medical research ive read in the past 6 months troubleshooting the illness that western medicine cant solve. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: newoodguy78 on November 19, 2021, 05:18:23 PM
Quote from: mike_belben on November 18, 2021, 11:24:21 PM
100 likes on your results.

What is the bare dirt from ? disking ahead of a planter?  

Did you take any pics of the covers up close?  

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/40841/E2F8E331-437D-47F6-861D-94B234BABD55.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1637359828)
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/40841/5C34CC4A-B4F0-463F-89B4-0913C79922AE.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1637359752)
 
The bare dirt was from disking in crops that just finished pictures taken yesterday. 
Here's the close ups 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: moodnacreek on November 19, 2021, 07:11:47 PM
Mike, man you are really into it, way way beyond my pay scale. All I can say is the your gonna need a lot of chickens.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: mudfarmer on November 19, 2021, 07:25:59 PM
Keep at it Mike. You can produce good pure food with no chemical inputs as your research has shown. Sometimes I get bogged down and over complicate things...  It really is simple and folks did it for a long long time. We have never and will never put any chemical big ag junk in on or around our food production areas and end up with bumper crops. Compost, organic matter, fungus, "weeds"!, Nitrogen fixers and supplemental water when needed. 

Definite yes on cow peas!!! Love em
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: mike_belben on November 19, 2021, 07:27:07 PM
Quote from: moodnacreek on November 19, 2021, 07:11:47 PMway way beyond my pay scale.
no sir, this one is pro bono as always !
:)


thanks for the vote of confidence MFer  ( ;D )  wheres your pics man dont be shy
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: mudfarmer on November 19, 2021, 07:48:36 PM
Here you go


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/37318/IMG_20211024_132541875_HDR.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1637368968)
 

This was a quick last minute cleanup before hard frost. No big deal, right?

Well we didn't even bother to plant tomatoes, squash or peppers this year. Two years in a row we have had to "weed" things that others would be spending money on seed for. Hundreds of tomato plants this year. Thinned down to 25 and moved around. Had four volunteer pepper plants that sprouted on their own and grew bunches Bunches of red peppers. I can't even manage that sometimes starting them inside in February. There is a seed bed, like the woods. The secret is unexpectedly almost always pigs  ;D



(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/37318/IMG_20210803_1949313075B15D.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1637370440)
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/37318/IMG_20210729_2026464655B15D.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1637370537)
 

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/37318/IMG_20210816_1947462395B15D.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1637370628)



(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/37318/IMG_20211004_122757649_HDR5B15D.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1637370892)
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/37318/IMG_20211004_122654877_HDR5B15D.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1637370827)
 


No pesticides, herbicides, chemically derived fertilizers, industrial waste, just good dirt sunshine and water like mama would have wanted.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: mike_belben on November 20, 2021, 02:55:41 AM
Heck yeah!  Looks great.  Thats some big maters. 

This past year i had volunteer squash, beans, pepper and tomato. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: SwampDonkey on November 20, 2021, 05:06:28 AM
I usually pull tomato 'weeds', like pulling lambs quarters. :D

I start my peppers in April and maters I should start in May. This year it was April for the tomatoes, but way too early. :D Peppers are a lot slower than tomatoes. But I had pepper stalks like woody saplings before I finally pulled them 'late' last month that frost had never hit. How many peppers do you want to eat?? ;D  Surplus of winter squash, gonna have to cook and freeze some, pies for some to. :)
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: newoodguy78 on November 20, 2021, 07:21:37 AM
Mudfarmer your produce looks great. Keep up the good work. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: mike_belben on November 20, 2021, 07:48:14 AM
dave brandt is the guy youll likely see holding 3ft daikon radishes if you google them. seeds with a corn planter on 4 inch spacing with winter pea in between the radish rows to feed the radish nitrogen needs.  he says they actually lift dirt. these things are about 3" diameter.

terminates with a roller and no herbicide then plants the corn right into the radish row because he has found that the radish tillage produces avg 2° warmer and about 2% dryer soil than the row of peas.

he mentioned buckwheat as a summer cover for its ability to strip phosphorus from rocks and i looked into it. SARE says buckwheat secretes amino acids that unlock phosphorus, 10x more than barley and 3x more than rye.  its good to plant after forest clearing so i have a sack in the shed for this coming season.

https://www.sare.org/publications/managing-cover-crops-profitably/nonlegume-cover-crops/buckwheat/#:~:text=Phosphorus%20scavenger.,release%20nutrients%20from%20the%20soil.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: mudfarmer on November 20, 2021, 12:13:46 PM
Thanks! It is working so we will keep it up and expand until (more) uncomfortable and then dial back to our sweet spot. Almost 1/4 acre this year between two plots, plus 10x20 kitchen garden and 2x isolated 8x8 raised beds for seed production. We will hit 1/2 acre on three plots next year and suspect it will be a bit too much without help or giving up some other things. Ebb and flow, go where the wind takes us. Or maybe a 1/4 acre of spuds. We are historic potato ground (well not our place), was a starch mill on the river a mile away. Nothing like what swampdonkey talks about up there though! They do pretty well here and I put in a lot this year.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: newoodguy78 on November 20, 2021, 12:32:57 PM
Doing what you can manage and manage well while pushing the limits a bit in my opinion is the spot to be at in agriculture. Getting into more than you Can manage is a downward vacuum and potentially a mental, physical and financially draining experience. Every situation is different everywhere you go. Again nice work and keep at it 👍
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: Firewoodjoe on November 20, 2021, 01:01:35 PM
Well I just checked my sorghum and that one patch is still green and juicy! After multiple frost it's all dry brown except that. You guys that know about sorghum do you think I'd be safe if I just cut that patch down and through it out of the pasture? Then the cows would be on just dry dead stuff. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: newoodguy78 on November 20, 2021, 01:08:10 PM
Wish I could help you out, my mind is saying it would be okay. However please don't do it based solely on that.  I'll bet with a couple pictures Southside could give some good advice. He's got real world experience with it and a bunch of it to boot. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: Firewoodjoe on November 20, 2021, 01:15:49 PM
I don't think he needs pictures. It's green in color and when bent over your finger foamy juice runs out. I just don't know if the prussic acid is released even though it's still wet. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: Firewoodjoe on November 20, 2021, 04:34:57 PM
Well I couldn't take it. I went out with a saw and cut down the bad spots. Hopefully that speeds it up a bunch.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34659/D8E1186E-72D2-4CCF-8D81-0E30DF245F89.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1637443985)
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34659/6C7ABD41-056C-49FB-9920-DD983C970D40.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1637443920)
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: Southside on November 20, 2021, 06:12:25 PM
That picture dosen't scare me at all. Do you have a hay mower? If so and you aren't comfortable then knock it down, wait three days and it will be fine. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: Firewoodjoe on November 20, 2021, 06:21:35 PM
Quote from: Southside on November 20, 2021, 06:12:25 PM
That picture dosen't scare me at all. Do you have a hay mower? If so and you aren't comfortable then knock it down, wait three days and it will be fine.
Which one? The top picture you can seen one of the green patches I cut down. The bottom is the green area. 99% of it doesn't scare me either. So your saying if I cut the green stuff 3 days is sufficient for it to dry down and be safe for them to graze? I really need to move them by this coming weekend. I have a heifer to sort off and a steer to butcher so I need the third pasture space. Farming 🤦‍♂️ 😂 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: Southside on November 20, 2021, 06:27:18 PM
Neither picture, and yes, mow it, give it three days and any prussic acid will  be gone. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: Firewoodjoe on November 20, 2021, 06:36:38 PM
I'm not mowing the field. I'm not set up for that. It's set up for grazing. I cut the green patches with a chainsaw lol
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: mike_belben on December 04, 2021, 12:06:14 PM
saw a 5ft seed drill in the parking lot at rural king so i took a look.  $3k and its already broken.  these should hold up in the sun for a decade right?  our vacuum cleaner uses tougher hoses. 


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/1202211503.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1638634291)



have learned a lot more the past week or two but not had to time to paraphrase it.  "rhizophagy cycle" unlocks the secret to about 30% of plant growth.  the plant roots actually suck bacterial cells into them and excrete them back out continually.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: Nebraska on December 04, 2021, 07:06:51 PM
Several drills on Craigslist  around here for a third of that. They were built in the 40's and 50's  they will still get the job done, that new one looks like   far east junk. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: newoodguy78 on December 04, 2021, 07:20:45 PM
Those old drills are out there and very often need very little to be put into service.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: mike_belben on December 07, 2021, 11:59:42 AM
Got a surprise in the mail other day.  A mint 50th anniversary edition.  An heirloom. 

 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/1207211055.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1638896127)



(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/1207211055a-1.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1638896091)



Roxie, I am truly honored and grateful to have Cowboy Bobs book.  Thank you so much. 

Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: newoodguy78 on December 07, 2021, 01:19:53 PM
I'm not familiar with that book but I'm certain it's full of valuable information based on the print date alone. I've read some of the old farming books, there's incredibly valuable knowledge in a lot of them 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: mike_belben on December 07, 2021, 01:31:30 PM
It appears we got really off track due to surplus grain with no market post ww2.  Start feeding it to the cows and their omega 3 to omega 6 fatty acid ratio goes haywire.. Cancer and heart disease explode, etc.   Why should a dairy manage hundreds of acres of pasture when it can make a mint selling the pasture to corn and soy conglomerate then buy cheap corn and soy to feed right there in place?  

Hydrogenated seed oils ("vegetable oil") and continual tillage are also very very much part of the total national health epidemic.  If we were healthy, covid woulda been nothing.  Virus appears to be the activator of chronic disease.  It will only get larger from here.  

You wanna be rich?  Get a refractometer and market the nutrient density of your produce.  If its dense organic food and you can prove it, you can name your price because it isnt available anywhere and getting it is life and death for the growing sick masses. 

I believe some day the insurance company will be willing to pay for proven nutrient dense meal prep plans because it will be cheaper and more effective than paying for continually failing treatments, procedures and meds. Theyll make a lot more money collecting premiums on healing people than slowly dying ones. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: Nebraska on December 07, 2021, 01:33:31 PM
Awesome book Mike! That's pretty special.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: mike_belben on December 20, 2021, 12:09:48 PM
is there any part of the country where its common to see cattle overwinter on a cover crop mix?  

all our pasture grass is getting pretty rank here but winter covers are looking fantastic in my yard and a few abandoned crop fields that probably just got lease agreements and were seeded this fall.  

is there some reason i cant figure out why producers dont broadcast seed a summer paddock before letting the cows graze it down and stamp the seed in.. then rotate them off that until its ready as a winter paddock?   will it not work?  
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: newoodguy78 on December 20, 2021, 12:44:45 PM
I've never done it but see no reason it wouldn't work. I've thought about doing it here. We have plenty of land so getting the seedings in in time for them to establish well wouldn't be a problem. If someone was farming all their land all the time, getting the crops off in time to get a second crop (covers) established well enough to be able to graze could be a problem. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: newoodguy78 on December 20, 2021, 01:54:35 PM
Was thinking about this I believe Southside and Firewoodjoe are doing this sort of thing. There in two totally different climates. Their perspectives would be interesting to hear. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: Southside on December 20, 2021, 02:08:12 PM
Just have a moment and will get back later, but yes it's done, it's not as easy as it appears but well worth the effort.  We run a lot of summer and winter annuals for this purpose but still need to feed some stored forage.  Rainfall, temperature, sod vs tilled ground all come into play. 

Hay and Forage Grower magazine might be of interest to guys.  It's free, a lot of conventional info, but more and more regenerative articles in there.  Even had Gregg Judy last month.  
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: Nebraska on December 20, 2021, 05:02:44 PM
Its done out here commonly with rye(+/- brasicas, turnips etc). It is flown on with crops in the field mid ish August start, or drilled right behind soybean harvest best if its an earlier maturing soybean type. Mostly used here as a bridge to grass in the spring. Good place to turn out new cow calf pairs. The cows are all mostly out grazing corn stalk residue now that gets dependant on snow cover. A few folks starting to calve now.



Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: Southside on December 20, 2021, 06:07:24 PM
Quote from: Nebraska on December 20, 2021, 05:02:44 PM
 A few folks starting to calve now.
That's gotta hurt!  :D
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: newoodguy78 on December 20, 2021, 09:47:54 PM
Quote from: Nebraska on December 20, 2021, 05:02:44 PM
Its done out here commonly with rye(+/- brasicas, turnips etc). It is flown on with crops in the field mid ish August start, or drilled right behind soybean harvest best if its an earlier maturing soybean type. Mostly used here as a bridge to grass in the spring. Good place to turn out new cow calf pairs. The cows are all mostly out grazing corn stalk residue now that gets dependant on snow cover. A few folks starting to calve now.
From a veterinarians standpoint what's your thoughts on grazing cover crop mixes as far as animal health and weight gain? I'm guessing out your way guys mostly have angus but do you see or have an opinion on what breeds do best on an all grass diet?
I really like the red devons as far temperament and have seen some do really well on total grass diets.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: Southside on December 20, 2021, 10:14:02 PM
A couple of the challenges with winter cover crop grazing are keeping dry matter intake high enough and addressing off flavor issues from brassicas.  For milk or meat being finished brassicas will impart an off flavor if fed in too high of a % of the diet, just like wild onion in the spring. The other issue is that although the cover crops are high in protein they are very low in fiber so cows will actually loose weight if that's all they have to eat, so you need to keep the DM up with another feed source.  Thats where the corn stubble / baled stover / grass hay / or stockpiled standing forage comes in.  A reasonable rule of thumb is to strip graze the winter cover crop for a couple of hours at most each day limiting intake, then feed all they will eat of your other feed source.  Logistically that can get to be a challenge depending on field lay out, fencing, water, etc.  

Trying to plant post harvest is really hard, mother nature never cooperates.  Get the crop off nice and early and it will turn popcorn fart dry.  Plenty of fall moisture in the ground means you can't get the crop off in time for the winter cover crop to set in well enough.  

Like the doc said flying the seed in works well, now with precision guidance so does top dressing before the crop closes in the canopy, the seed gets worked into the ground from the rain and does not compete with the primary crop.  As soon as the canopy opens up again be it from harvest or leaf drop the cover crop is already up several inches and off to the races, hopefully that's late summer or early fall so it has plenty of time to produce.  
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: Nebraska on December 20, 2021, 10:32:25 PM
As far as I can tell it's great.  Can be too washy as Jim points out.   Helps producers manage space great for calf health. (Spreads them out)...lower density more square footage less illness. Really good for the soil for many reasons. Economically  a good practice if you can manage it.  I don't know about seeding it into summer range like Mike mentioned above. I am too far North likely...I have heard of cows getting an esophageal blockage from too big  a turnip, not necessarily a common event and  other things like hedge apples can do that as well.

As far as I know I have maybe never worked on a Red Devon.  Cow herds here are mostly Angus based, with Simmental, Charolais, Herford, Shorthorn and Maine Anjou being common crosses.  A hand full of Long Horn and a few niche breeds.
All of them will do fine on an all grass/forage type system as that is what the Good Lord designed them for. Big forage fermenting /digesting vats with legs. 
Jim's reply  regarding the off flavors  is true I know with milk. Here the cover crop grazing season  is about 2 months  and it's entirely beef cow / calf operations using it. So any off flavors in meat from the forage really aren't a problem,  because 99% of the cattle are mom's with babies at the side. They have a job for a while.. They won't end up as a burger unless they aren't pregnant come next fall.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: mike_belben on December 24, 2021, 12:16:25 PM
ive been trying to find time to convert these screenshots to JPG and upload for atleast a month.  highlights from a 1.5hr or so video with james white, the soil biologist showing what i believe to be among the most cutting edge soil root rhizophagy images.  


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/1640363108733.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1640363402)



(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/1640363156599.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1640363402)



(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/1640363204767.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1640363348)



(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/1640363341984.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1640363345)



(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/1640363235551.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1640363340)



the cliffnotes are that seedling roots need to grow hairs to survive.  the way they do that is by endophyte invasion so to speak.. where bacteria and or fungi go INTO the root.  the plant does some magic, multiplies them before spitting them back into the soil then taking them back up again.  its sorta like lungs continually breathing for air supply.  plant roots are continually sucking up and spitting out microbes to get solube mineral into their tissue.  these microbes are fed carbon and whatever else.. sugars maybe.. by the "root exudates" that the plant is able to create by solar power somehow in gods wonderful design.  

if you dont have living microbial life, you wont germinate seedlings.  the plants feed the microbes and the microbes feed the plants so never have bare soil.. go from planting to planting to planting continually.  tillage will stunt fungal microbial life but in some instances the gain may justify the fungal loss.  soil that is continually tilled will surely die off and grow weeds, compaction and algae blooms far far away.

cliffnote to the cliffnote, is plant cover crops (and imo, find something that eats them so you can later eat it.)
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: farmfromkansas on January 16, 2022, 11:04:52 AM
As breeds go, think the longhorn is considered a poor breed, but is very good when mixed into your angus herd.  Have a neighbor with longhorns, and he uses an angus bull.  I have been buying his solid colored heifers, as I found years ago you can't breed out the odd colors from longhorn crossbreeding. But if one is black or red, you do not have that problem.  The advantages are that a longhorn never has trouble calving, and does well during hot weather. Don't seem to get sick and die either.  One of my neighbors who has a degree from K-state, says there are no genetic defects in the longhorn breed, because of the long time they ran wild in Texas.  Buyers will discount the price of your cattle if they see a longhorn cross, but it only shows up in the color.  Guys who feed cattle like to get the discounted price when they buy and as one neighbor told me, they never lose those, unlike some black cattle that look healthy one day and are dead the next. And the butcher does not care if it has an odd color.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: newoodguy78 on January 23, 2022, 09:21:52 AM
Have a meeting with an agronomist tomorrow morning. Very interested to hear what he's got to say. He's knowledgeable on some inputs that I've heard of but have no first hand experience with them or know anyone using them.
 He seems like an outside the box thinker which I respect. 
 When I was speaking with him initially about what we're doing now for fertilizer and the rates, he waited until I was done and very calmly said "NEVER trust the same fertilizer company to do your soil analysis, mix your blend and recommend application rates" 
With the price of fertilizer the way it is I'm trying to figure out inputs that are cheaper but produce results. Pulling the plug on commercial fertilizer all at once isn't an option in my opinion, working away from it as quickly as we can certainly is though. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: Southside on January 23, 2022, 11:08:02 AM
I completely agree that cold turkey would not be a good path forward in your situation. If you could fallow ground and do something alternative with it for the transition that's one thing, but having to pay the bills and pull the plug at the same time would be a disaster. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: newoodguy78 on January 23, 2022, 11:45:52 AM
That's what I've done in the last two years is cover cropped the ground we don't have in production. Fortunately we work/have more ground than we have markets for. 
Last year I started getting more intense with the cover crops on ground once the marketable stuff was off vs letting it go to weeds. 
Although my knowledge of them was/is very limited there is improvement showing. 
Letting the weeds get out of hand is an absolute mess around here. This year I'm hoping to up the cover crop game if the funds allow it. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: Southside on January 23, 2022, 12:33:29 PM
Now if you could run those cover crops through a ruminant....

In my experience it's three years before you see anything of sustained improvement, and closer to eight years before things really take off. That's looking at production under stressed conditions. Anybody's grass will be green the second week of May, what's it look like the second week of August is the test. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: newoodguy78 on January 23, 2022, 02:02:16 PM
The desire for ruminants is definitely there they'd fit well....
Maybe I'm looking for success a little too hard in what the cover crops are doing for me. 
This will be the third year on some ground. 
The 8 year observation is interesting not many people talk about the time it takes in the real world. 
The benefits of having longer ideal conditions in adverse situations is part of the long term goal. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: Southside on January 23, 2022, 02:20:15 PM
Organic certification is three years, but honestly that's when the issues begin if you aren't ready for it. 

The way I look at it, my dirt was going in one direction for a long time, so turning it around on a dime isn't going to happen. Weed pressure and such was discouraging for a while, but once things turned the corner, it corrected itself.

The cover crops are awesome, slows down organic material burn off, recovers nutrients, brings them to the root zone. The ruminant just helps keep that where it grew rather than having to till it in, and you get the nitrogen benefit from the urine and manure. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: newoodguy78 on January 24, 2022, 09:26:51 AM
Are you certified organic?
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: mike_belben on January 24, 2022, 10:18:38 AM
glad to hear it 78.  please let us know what he has to say.  

if youve never listened to him, i encourage you to look into what rick haney has to say.  he reinvented soil analysis in a way that gives credit to organic matter and nitrogen already present that most analysis does not.  they just kinda say if you want this many bushel corn you supply this much nitrogen, all of it, from a truck.  

well, theres nitrogen in the ground and the air already. haney tests measure how much, and reduce the purchased N by that amount to get the same yield. 

dont let the weeds discourage you. they are built to mineralize topsoil.  if theyre present, theyre doing something beneficial.. transferring a subsoil mineral into the topsoil that it was lacking. in time with nutrient and microbial improvement the weeds can be replaced with higher order plants (making weeds appear to go go away) because theyve done their jobs and made a habitat suitable for the new species.  
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: mike_belben on January 24, 2022, 10:25:50 AM
a thing ive noted, we just hit our normal freeze thaw weather after two weeks of mostly frozen.  not deep but no daytime softening.  we had total maybe 8 or 10 inches of snow with thawing, rain, ice and snow again in that time.  the bed where i planted rows of brassicas for us in a thick clover groundcover has had quite a bit of frost kill.  its still green but struggling, got that yellowish limpness and frostbitten extremities.  

the corn patch bed from this past summer i planted at the same time, thick with winter wheat, AWP and clovers has had no frost kill at all and i constantly tear off the high clumps for chicken feed which they devour.  it grows back thicker and thicker.  i did till this bed but it had a lot more OM than the other newest and largest one down about 20ft lower where the runoff flows.  ive channelled the runoff to a little stream so its not flooding but that area is always higher moisture. never grown anything there and it was solid clay/demo fill from where i had a pond i filled in.  it is planted in the same cover but is much, much slower in establishment which i think is due to less OM mostly.  its the area that i take in wood chips for.  i hope to thicken it a foot in the coming few years or so and then have it as a vegetable garden lined by dwarf fruit trees or maybe berry/vine stuff.  i havent really decided. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: farmfromkansas on January 25, 2022, 10:07:34 AM
Moved a couple loads of compost to the east quarter yesterday, had a pile from cleaning up a bedding pile and cleaning out the cattle shed, has been piled a few months, and it has been a couple months since we had any rain, but when I scooped up the pile found damp spots that actually steamed.  Looked like it was on fire, so I grabbed a handful, and it was not hot enough to burn.  Nice black color.  The coop brought 3 truck loads of spoiled grain, it has not been wet enough to compost. So will have to wait to spread that.  Hoping to get this compost spread on the grass soon as it is warm enough for about 3 days.  Had the covid a few weeks ago, kind of took my motivation for a while.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: mike_belben on January 25, 2022, 10:15:00 AM
glad youre still with us FFK   smiley_thumbsup smiley_sun
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: Southside on January 25, 2022, 11:50:59 AM
Quote from: newoodguy78 on January 24, 2022, 09:26:51 AM
Are you certified organic?
Oh I am certified all right, just not organic.  :D
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: newoodguy78 on January 25, 2022, 10:44:00 PM
Oh I've gathered that  :D
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: Southside on January 25, 2022, 10:56:37 PM
We were going to certify when Organic Valley was going to run a truck here and get milk, but after their market changed there was no financial benefit to be had with certification.  I can see it getting you a premium when shipping to larger markets, co-ops and such, but where we direct sell and have an open door policy, nobody is going to pay more just for some paperwork, at least not in our customer base. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: newoodguy78 on January 25, 2022, 11:20:47 PM
I worked on a dairy that went certified organic while I was there. The owner was an exceptional business man, cheaper than tripe but a very good farmer. While he believed in the organic way I do believe the financial side ultimately drove the switch from conventional.  Ended up being a very good decision to do so.
Since then corporate business entered the equation and changed rules and regulations. The end result in my understanding sucked a major amount of the potential financial benefit out of it and leaves the consumer with a misrepresented product.
Direct marketing as much of a pain as it is to deal with, is about the only way I see for a small producer to get paid fairly and the consumer to know just what goes into producing their purchase and how it's done.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: mike_belben on January 26, 2022, 09:44:14 AM
Gabe brown, his wife and son farm 6k acres regeneratively in south dakota and he gets paid to fly all over for lectures.  Says there is absolutely no way he will jump through the hoops to certify.  Has an open door come and see farm with direct retail and has set the business into small chunks for liablity so his farm side sells stock and crop to his marketing side and checks change accounts and they all turn an impressive profit.  Big enough that theyve built their own USDA processing plant.  

His profit margin is pretty tremendous and he sells out of everything without being forced into the corners that commodity buyers invent.  Impressive operation that anyone could benefit by looking into.  I hope he is the ag model of the future.  Big family farm with no subsidy and minimal inputs. Great on the land. He is bringing acres back to high output.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: Mooseherder on January 26, 2022, 10:18:10 AM
I've watched Gabe's presentations a few times on YouTube.  He and his family built quite an operation from the ashes. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: wisconsitom on January 26, 2022, 10:39:32 AM
The input side Mike, the input side.  If you can get the land working for itself, which as guys like you know can and will happen if only encouraged and allowed to happen, far fewer such inputs needed.

NE Wisconsin, where my land sits, is actually a large and varied region, with my immediate area lying on a sort of diagonal transition line between the woods and what amounts to a pretty heavy ag belt.  I wish it looked like these operators were trying to get out of the box they're in, but I tells ya true, when October roles around, you might be going down the road with your wipers on, to clear the corn chaff that's making a raging blizzard.  I wish I was joking.😒  You'll want to be doing your very best defensive driving around the fleets of grain trucks running the roads and entering/exiting fields.  Watch out!
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: mike_belben on January 26, 2022, 02:28:47 PM
i appreciate that theyre doing an honest days work but ill tell ya, i dont eat much corn. if i were only living on what i grow itd be a pretty meager existence to.  

i hope to spend the rest of my life figuring out how god intended his creation operates, and i hope he gives me countless acres to steward on his behalf. if not, this 5 keeps me busy enough. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: wisconsitom on January 26, 2022, 02:40:55 PM
It's all feed corn.  Dairy mega-factory farms, big parking lots for the migrant workforce, thousands of head.  All the ramshackle places get bought out, torn down, and made into bigger fields.  Just push the old house, barn or whatever, every tree in site, into a burn pile.

Wisconsin grows the most sweet corn of any state, but the vast majority of what you're  seeing is feed corn.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: mike_belben on January 26, 2022, 06:57:54 PM
thats a shame tom. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: trapper on January 26, 2022, 08:31:24 PM
Just south of you tom.  Couldnt aford the entire farm so half went to bigger farm next door.  He took down the fences and made his field bigger.  Hope to keep my 50 acres and pass it to my son.  40 acres is rented to another neighbor but still have my woods garden and hunting on it.  
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: wisconsitom on January 27, 2022, 09:25:08 AM
Yo trapper, keep up the good fight.  Heh, one field just south of Angelica, I knew the big harvester was in there somewhere because trucks were going in and out.  But all you could see from the road was some kind of cyclone of dust and debris where the machine was working.  It's a very aggressive model of agriculture.  I'm sure with our new neighbor on our west perimeter, there will be a row of corn starting one inch off the line.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: mike_belben on February 02, 2022, 08:21:47 PM
I just got a call from an old fellow i know that might be on borrowed time.  Hes an amputee with parkinsons, probably in his 80s.  Still tries to work but can barely put a shirt on.  I did a job for him then we got to chattin now and then and we went to his church, i wheeled him around from bible study to services. He calls now and again to chat.  

Just offered me free use of his 3/4 acre garden.. Thats been getting compost and woodchips for 25 years.  Hes got about 5 acres of orchard grass that he used to hay off but cant anymore.  Tractor and bailer need work and he just cant do it anymore but the equipment and garage are all still there.  Few paddocks already in. 

Feeling pretty blessed. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: newoodguy78 on February 02, 2022, 08:26:47 PM
Run with it that's quite an offer. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: Southside on February 02, 2022, 09:28:12 PM
That's awesome news mike.  Orchid will be good to you. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: mike_belben on February 02, 2022, 10:05:04 PM
Theres only one thing that gives me pause.  Well.. I mean 1.5 things.  The .5 is distance.  Its a good 25 min drive and at 9mpg with zero dollars i cant be there often. Certainly not possible for me to tend to daily animals there But its toward town so the fully out of the way portion isnt too many miles if i can combine trips now and then.  A vegetable or corn crop should be do-able


The cringiest issues that jim will get but many wont bat an eye at, is (if i interpretted him correctly.. He struggles to breathe and speak, very frail voice with a pause at every word) that i guess he sprayed an herbicide.. Then bailed hay.. Then the guy who was gonna take the hay for free had some kinda organic branding and left it there.  So my old friend had it rounded up and i cant tell if it was put in the garden or the compost.. But basically it is wise to suspect much glyphosate in the soil.  

Im on the fence about that pretty substantially given the health problems im watching the wife endure. Glyphosate causes a dramatic shift in bacterial life.  One that allows clostridium botulinin to thrive. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: Southside on February 02, 2022, 10:30:42 PM
Not sure you understood him or he meant to say what he did because that does not add up.  If he sprayed round up onto Orchid grass there would be no crop to bale and anyone with an organic certification has to certify all of the ground used for production - not to say someone would not cheat of course.  

Setting the distance aside, it's very hard to find ground that has not been chemically farmed.  I sure won't give up any of mine and about all I do pick up has been mined and abused, so the joys of transition are mine, but I hear ya.   
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: Nebraska on February 02, 2022, 10:47:28 PM
Mike he likely sprayed 24D or Grazon on the hay patch. To control  brushy  invasion or maybe manage thistles. At least around here that is commonly  done.  Grow the garden and sell the first go round, if you are fearful.  If you can do something with it your way I think you should.   Kind of a "gift horse" type of thing.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: mike_belben on February 02, 2022, 11:17:01 PM
Right im still piecing things together.  His name is dell.  isnt senile but the memory is patchy and add in the weak slurry voice .. Lost in translation is pretty normal. Id have to see the jugs myself to know for sure what spray it was.  He said herbicide.

 A part of me thought well.. Maybe just plant some dwarf fruit trees or something like that where the first crop is a few years out when the chemical half life has started breaking down.  Just variety cover crop in between for a few cycles to kickstart microbial rejuvenation.  

I will have to pay him a visit, look at the site and feel things out.  I have to be cautious its not a plot to get me to fix all his stuff and grow his tomatoes too.  I dont think hes that way but hardly know him.  County forestor lives next door, thats how i met dell
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: newoodguy78 on February 09, 2022, 07:34:47 PM
Questions For all you guys that have been doing soil tests the last 20-30 years or so.
What has been your observation on sulfur levels?
Also what effect do you feel it has on nutrient availability?

Been dealing with several people lately much smarter than myself about soil health and methods to build quality soil.  Trying to pick pieces from here and there in an effort to make somewhat educated decisions. Especially considering the cost of inputs.  
The rabbit hole that this topic can be has sucked me in.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: wisconsitom on February 09, 2022, 10:07:44 PM
Hi newoodguy.  Not sulfur exactly, but soil pH.  When I was working yet, here in A-Town,  I'd occasionally adjust via soil sulfur.  Our soil pH here is right around neutral, which is great for a wide range of plant species.

But for those few requiring an acid soil, the sulfur would help get things down closer to 5.8.  Good stuff, slow-acting but long lasting.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: newoodguy78 on February 09, 2022, 11:15:10 PM
Thanks for the reply. Would the sulfur be added as an amendment by itself? 
That seems like a really low ph what crops is that ph a target for?
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: DaleK on February 10, 2022, 06:50:48 AM
Sulphur levels really tanked after acid rain mostly ended, went down pretty well continuously through the late 90s and into the last 20 years to the point that on some farms one of the best ROIs now is a bit of sulphur in the mix. Also since sulphur deficiency looks a lot like N deficiency in young plants it ends up in a bunch more N being applied when a little sulphur would do much more good
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: newoodguy78 on February 10, 2022, 09:15:54 AM
That's what I was wondering if I'd hear. I've been hearing from everyone sulfur levels have decreased to the point that addressing them is a good return on investment now more than in the past. 
It's my understanding that if sulfur levels are low it ties up nitrogen and makes it unavailable to the plants. Which like you said leads to applying more nitrogen for two reasons. One sulfur and nitrogen deficiency have similar symptoms. Two the available nitrogen levels may well be low but for reasons that aren't resolved by applying more. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: wisconsitom on February 10, 2022, 09:28:43 AM
Best bet is to look at the chart showing availability of all required soil nutrients at varying soil pH.  This chart, widely available, shows that what is really happening is for certain plant types, a too-high pH will make iron and manganese (not magnesium!!) unavailable.   Results in chlorosis, yellowish foliage on a plant that should be green.

Adding sulfur-just apply to surface-will slowly bring pH down.  Not permanent though,-soil buffering capacity will eventually drive the pH back up.  Reapply 

Note too that when we describe a plant as requiring acid soil, this is because over time, exudates from that plant type's roots raise the pH.  The reverse is also true, plants that thrive in alkaline soils slowly acidify their surroundings.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: newoodguy78 on February 10, 2022, 09:53:55 AM
Another tidbit I've picked up is organic matter is 5% nitrogen that is readily available and easy for the plants to use. 
In our soils I've been pushing the OM issue big time for multiple reasons was a bonus to learn this. 
One thing I have learned with cover crops on poor soils, is I feel it's better to knock them back and work them in before they get away from you. I've got a couple pieces that got too big on me. Couldn't get them managed because it was too wet. 
Just left one of the fields and a lot of residue is still there didn't rot down as quick as I was hoping. 
For anyone trying out cover crops strictly for returning to the soil with hay and forage experience, I'd recommend working it in or mowing it if it's a perennial at or just prior to premium forage stage. From my experience the ground digests it the quickest at this stage. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: wisconsitom on February 10, 2022, 10:08:16 AM
Organic matter "cures what ails ya" in soil and plant health terms.

A healthy forest soil is a good example of "just on time" nutrient availability.  There's never any big flush of nitrogen, or any other nutrient showing up.  Instead, soil microbes are slowly but constantly breaking down organic matter, soil particles, and even rocks, making small amounts of needed nutes available such that when we look at forest land, we rarely see anything but decent green foliage.  There rarely seems to be any deficiency.

Oh you know guys, I could go on and on!
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: newoodguy78 on February 10, 2022, 01:43:15 PM
I agree a healthy forest floor is excellent at supplying nutrients at the correct time. 
The trick to me is trying to build soil while constantly taking nutrients from it(growing and harvesting saleable crops). 
Figuring out the best return on investment while moving forward instead of back is a challenge to say the least. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: wisconsitom on February 10, 2022, 02:04:20 PM
Yeah I thought about that, how what I was describing was different than what you're dealing with.  I'd say cover crops when they fit, and low or no-cost organic matter.

It might sound odd but I found that regular old leaf compost from the city was about as good a soil conditioner as there is.  This was in ornamental display beds, planters and the like, so actually quite similar to an annual cropping scheme. Stuff has to be well rotted though.  It's ok if still looks like leaves, but should crumble in your hands, not be soggy mass.

Overall, it's about what a guy can get for free or little.  I once took delivery of an entire roll-off of spent malted barley from a local malt house.  That stuff came with its own swarm of bees!
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: farmfromkansas on February 10, 2022, 07:15:48 PM
The coop here has a product they call 30 rock, which is a fertilizer like 18-46, but contains sulphur. The 18 is nitrogen and the 46 is phosphorus. Wheat farmers usually use it for a starter with the seed or broadcast before planting.  I am getting old and don't appreciate scooping the fertilizer into the drill, so I just have the coop broadcast the fertilizer.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: mike_belben on February 11, 2022, 11:24:41 AM
western medicine and western agriculture both get caught up looking so hard at the chemical compositions and trying to amend them, that we miss where the chemicals originally came from for thousands of years before the pills and spreaders were invented; the microbial life in that soil or human.  it produces the nutrients and compounds and signals necessary for vibrant life and always has, until we got in the mix with our ideas of what needed to be done.

we put sick people on drugs for life to amend our perceived chemical issues, and they die just as sick as the day we started. we put chemicals on fields until the day we quit cropping, and leave them just as sick as the day we started.  

or there is a small inkling of sick people and farmers of sick land, that make radical changes in what they feed the microbiology to increase it and diversify it..  and suddenly everything returns back to a healthy state of equilibrium on its own.  diseases are healed, crop nutrient deficiencies melt away.  

the choice is yours.  with food and fertilizer prices exceeding incomes one rung at a time, the poor people better find a new way and find it fast.  the rich can afford to be wronger longer i guess, but i dont recommend adopting their ways if you are keen to socialize on that side of the fence.  

if you are bent on staying conventional, please get a second opinion soil analysis.  spend the $ on a haney test and follow it. the savings will pay for the test and then some.  if you are just a hobbyist playing with tomatoes, get that variety of organic matter in your garden, reduce tillage as much as you are able, and increase plant diversity.  the more diverse your plants the more diverse your microbial populations and the more robust and vigorous the tissue this can produce.  in gardens and in humans.   it is about mineralization and this takes diversity for it to work right  
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: Bandmill Bandit on February 11, 2022, 12:08:59 PM
Mike you nailed it! But there is a LOT more to it than mineralization. Just saying. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: newoodguy78 on February 11, 2022, 01:54:24 PM
Bandmill you nailed it as well. There's more to it than most people will ever realize, especially when other peoples livelihood depends on the proper decisions. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: wisconsitom on February 11, 2022, 02:25:13 PM
Getting back to sulfur, it has always been listed among the micronutrients needed by plants.  True enough though, it occupies a spot intermediary between micro and macro.

Can't remember newoodguy, have you done any soil testing?
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: newoodguy78 on February 11, 2022, 04:08:56 PM
Yes ,I've tested every field 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: Southside on February 11, 2022, 05:32:30 PM
Around these parts every field tests me.  :D
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: Bandmill Bandit on February 11, 2022, 06:05:24 PM
Do I dare introduce the topic of aerobic/an-aerobic bacterial production and the critical role that the balance AND transition through the crop season that those processes control?? That might need another thread.   
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: mike_belben on February 12, 2022, 09:01:22 AM
This IS the thread for that.  Lets hear it.  bon_fire
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: Bandmill Bandit on February 12, 2022, 12:25:08 PM
Oh Boy! Not be cause I am afraid to do it BUT because I don't have the Extension Course material any more.

So I am going to reach out to the forum membership for help here and see if we can recover the material some how, some where.

During the late 70s there was major Research project that was a joint effort amongst several of the Ag schools at several Universities with the lead school being Texas A&M,
Wisconsin SU and Washington SU and several others including UofA in Alberta.

There were several Ag Industry sponsors including SiloPress USA (Iowa), SiloPress Alberta Ltd.(me) AgBag, Harvestor USA, and a few of the upright and horizontal silo storage companies. Also there were several feedlot groups and dairy producer groups as well.

The lead research professors name was Anthony W. Brady. He was a long time Faculty member in the School of Agriculture at T A&M and this was his retirement project. IT was published in 1980 I think. I was a Certified instructor for this course in Alberta. 

It was a 4 Day intense Ag extension course offered by the Alberta Ag Extension office and was done very much the same way in the USA. The first day section was called Liars Figure but Figures Don't Lie. Day 2 was Protein & Energy vs Nitrogen, Phosphates etc. & Mineralization. Day 3 was Fermentation and the nutrient conversion processes. Day 4 was Field nutrition vs herd nutrition. Dont hold me to the order but I think I got it right. 
   
SO if any one could help me find that course material I would be able to provide pretty much the entire course material. I will reach out to Texas A&M on Monday and see if theres a chance this material is still available.  If we can pull it together maybe a webinar would be in oder. ( Oh boy! now I am really going out on a limb. did the last seminar in 1985)

Please let me know if you can help. I have names of people in Iowa that were also instructors for the course that may well have the material as well.       
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: newoodguy78 on February 12, 2022, 03:06:41 PM
That would be an interesting read. With that lineup of sponsors was it focused towards forage production?
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: Bandmill Bandit on February 12, 2022, 03:43:43 PM
It was livestock production focused from field to plate with about 60% focus on Forage from all forms of dry through the very wet forage theories and practises of the day including the use of fermented high moisture grains and recycled manure mixes. (Mostly poultry)   
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: mike_belben on February 12, 2022, 03:51:15 PM
it sounds like the cutting edge information of its day, but i think you will find the next 40 years of research and the advancements in laboratory equipment and electron microscopes, have really, really advanced the field of study to include vast new information that is emerging day by day even still.    

stuff like this.. pretty amazing imagery of the rhizophagy cycle..  showing how plant roots and bacteria are co-dependent. 


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/1640363108733.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1640363402)



(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/1640363156599.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1640363402)



(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/1640363341984.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1640363345)



(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/1640363235551.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1640363340)


thats just screengrabs from one youtube video.  a lot of things to dislike about the internet age but it is amazing how successfully it has torn down the cost barrier to education if one is willing to seek.  im optimistic about the food future getting better as people take that part of their life back from walmart. 


bacterially, ive read that anaerobic bacterial families are more likely to be pathogenic, but with thousands of species its a broad generalization to make.  aerobic ones are supposed to be more probiotic and i guess is why a compost pile is to be turned, for example. not that it wont degrade if you dont, but that the bacteria the turning favors are less likely to cause problems.   

Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: newoodguy78 on February 12, 2022, 04:05:05 PM
I agree it sounds like cutting edge stuff for its day. Without seeing the information I will say this. not all of the fermented feed and storage options worked out to benefit the growers/ producers. When you start pushing animals with "maximum efficiency " feed while ignoring dry matter intakes problems arise and get quite costly. I've seen and dealt with it first hand.  Think of eating a straight diet of pickles with nothing else. There's a reason harvestore and sealstor silos are commonly called bankruptcy tubes in this area. There's far more standing empty with barns falling down around them than being used. 
It's like anything it takes a balance of many things to keep the adverse effects of the item beside it in check.
Bandmill I hope you're able to find some of this info, quality forage production is something I've always enjoyed. Don't matter whether it's for ruminants or humans  :D
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: mike_belben on February 12, 2022, 04:42:03 PM
i do a lot of pondering as i plug away at the endless chores of my life.  not too long ago i got into cornish cross broilers, knowing that they were a race car of a bird designed to eat all the grain you can give it, and inflate into a monster bird by 6 weeks.   theyre known for heart and leg problems as well as dying in high percentages by the time you hit 10 weeks or so.  

thats not really very surprising since we are feeding them highly inflammatory grains in massive quantities to get this fast gain.  because of the market paying by the pound, we celebrate this intensive line breeding of essentially a diabetic newborn.  the cornish cross is the bird that gets sickest fastest from commercial feed, so it can make us the most money per pound of feed.  thats a pretty twisted goal in my opinion.

if you give a bird, cow, pig or human a broad based anti-biotic the creature will gain weight.  since all but humans are sold by the pound we consider that to be a win. but in humans, we are starting to realize killing off the microbiome via antibiotics causes a weight gain from inflammation leading to chronic sickness and disease. i dont know about you, but i dont want to eat an animal that is loaded full of stuff thats killing it for a mark up.  sure it makes the producer a profit but what is it gonna do for me when i eat it?  this sounds like the 303 oil situation.  TSC makes a tidy sum and i get a sick machine by thinking im saving money.  it just produces a screwed up world i guess when profit is all you care about. inflation leaves us no choice in the matter either.  gotta continually cut corners to make the same.

my remaining birds are 5.5 months old now and grew at a layers pace instead of a broilers.  they are full sized and feathered now, have survived a pretty harsh outdoor winter, have zero health problems, can fly, and have cost me almost nothing. theyve lived on very little feed.  instead eating mostly fruit and vegetable table scraps, and the surplus of squash i grew last year that stayed outside and got mushy.  they tear up banana peels and apple cores and so forth.  im pretty confident if i kept them on straight commercial feed theyd be dead by now.  

im going to line breed the remainder just for a hobby/educational experience to see what they become on a more natural diet.  
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: Bandmill Bandit on February 12, 2022, 08:42:30 PM
Ill wade into the silage/wet fermented forage segment here a bit. Remember its be 35 years since I taught the course for 2 winters.

1stly You will never see a ruminant animal grazing in a pasture by plucking off the grass and laying in the sun to dry down so they can come back and eat it. No matter the time of year. As the summer passes and the grazing forages dry down water intake increases accordingly. The rumen of all ruminants operates at 80% moister +/- 2 % year around.

The drier the forage intake the higher the water intake before the animal can process the food. Dry matter intake can be very misleading. more "dry matter means the energy required to convert nutrients to productivity is increased substantially decreasing that actual potential out put of the animal

NONE of the so called "sealed" Silos are actually sealed! They restrict air transfer better, but do not eliminate it altogether. Sealed Silos were doomed before the first one was built, partially because bottom unloading had a whole list of problems in and of it self which restricted loading options including moisture content that could lead to freezing issues etc etc in the colder climates.

You can do a better job in an uprite silo by very careful management of the moister content of forage into the silo how ever this is not fool proof either, but more manageable.

Pit type silos can give very good feed BUT again management of the facility is critical

That brings us to Bags. The only truly sealed option when meticulously MANAGED. That word belongs on a the key chain of high quality forage production.

To achieve optimum conditions for a high quality forage you need to be as close to a sealed environment as is possible.

Forage needs to be no dryer than 60% moisture and no wetter than the upper 70% range. With a bagger you need to get the packing pressure within an acceptable range which is not that difficult to do. You want to be in the 60 to 80 lb of forage per cubic foot depending on a whole lot of forage conditions, one of which is cut length. 3/8"s is optimal!

If the bag is coming off the tunnel about 3 to 5 inches above rear tunnel support tube you are in the ball park. Close enough!

Now we get to the critical factors of bag Management. SEAL THE BAG immediately after pulling the bag off the back of the machine. The AEROBIC ferment has started and the more of the Methane gas you lose the poorer your feed quality will be. A roll of patch tape is your best friend for the next 48 hours. DO NOT "VENT" THE BAGS under any circumstances.

The methane is to the AN-AEROBIC bacteria as oxygen is to you and I. During the first 48 hours the internal temp should rise to about 100° to 105°! 110° MAX!

Without methane you end up with either an over heated bag of silage or a "cold pack" that will be worth a bit more than a bale of wheat straw in terms of nutritional value.  

The next 21 days are critical. Inspect the bags a few times a day. For the first 48 to 72 hours, the Aerobic Gremlins are hard work eating oxygen with gusto raising the internal temperature and producing Methane. As the Oxygen level drops and the methane level rises and the Anaerobic gremlins multiply exponentially and start to do their job producing lacto basilic bacteria that generate lactic acid, preserving the feed/converted nutrients causing the pressure in the bag to subside till the bag appears to actually have been vacuum sealed IF you have been meticulous with bag management. The job of the bag is to advance the digestion of the forage in storage as far as possible to reduce the amount of energy the animal has to expend to do that task in it's own gut.

If you have done a good job you will have a feed Quality that you never thought you could get.

Heres what you can expect

PH of 6 min 7 max; same as the cows rumen!
moister of 60% to 70%; 10 ish % lower the the rumen
Usable Protein and energy will be higher. substantially higher TDN
A very stable lactic acid fermented feed the will be quite resistant to spoilage

What the bags can do is pretty much reduce the feed processing energy requirement of the rumen by up to 80% because the bag has done the job that rumen of the animal is designed to do. Cud chewing is drastically reduced as the only purpose it serves is to mix the animals saliva enzymes into the "ponch manure" that the "ponch" (second stomach) needs to to promote the next phase of the digestion process.

The above is basically a summary of the day 3 morning segment if I remember right.

I know there will be question because I tried to keep it short. (fail)

Fire away!

BUT Please don't start with cows requiring LONG, DRY forage strands in the ration to stimulate the rumen. Find me one cow pie that has a single strand of feed residue that exceeds 3/8" long and I might listen.      
                   

Mike the cutting edge to day is so much advanced. those are amazing pictures nad i am sure there is stuff out that helps explain the the aerobic an-aerobic process as well. With out carbon, oxygen and methane this planet will die in a relatively short time.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: mike_belben on February 13, 2022, 12:50:44 PM
That was awesome bandit. 

 Ken hamilton at biomineral technologies has a pretty good site regarding aerobic and anearobic bacteria in manure lagoons and wrapped bales.  He raises feedlot beef on marshmallows where before bailing its sprayed with an innoculant to ensure certain proven probiotic bacteria dominate the ferment. They turn almost black.. Carmelized.  Cows smash thru it. 

Its exactly what youre saying.. Controlling the conditions and bacteria so that maximum digestion and absorption of nutrient, mineral and vitamin gets into the tissue with minimal energy expended doing so.   I talked to them on the phone  once, His pure grass finishing times in a feedlot were pretty impressive.  Almost as quick as corn finish if im not mistaken, and absolutely a better animal for you to consume.  Omega 6 to  3 ratio is way high in a grain beef and correct in a grass animal. 

His vids 
Fermented Forage - Process and Benefits - YouTube (https://youtu.be/thYgHiZg-YU)

Fermented Forage Testimonial - YouTube (https://youtu.be/MztrqQhRdp0)



From september to the grass kill i fed my chickens as an experiment on a pickled grass basically. A 5 gallon bucket of the best grass and forages i rounded up (dock, plaintain, yellow sweet clover etc) for the bagger mower. 2 passes then into a 5gallon bucket full of water with some salt and vinegar to begin the ferment.  When the top is coated in a white skin of kahm yeast its ready.  Ground up garden veggie rejects and feed corn i raised also went in.  

The bucket would last a few weeks and continually break down from grass blades to a green mash.  They gobbled that right down.  I consider the bucket a chicken rumen.  I withheld ration compared to what a cornish cross is willing to eat, in order to grow a slower bird rather than the inflatable freaks that they typical are. Just experimenting.  But yeah.. You can raise chickens on mostly lawn if you predigest the non digestible fiber for them first.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: Bandmill Bandit on February 13, 2022, 01:52:08 PM
We Germans call it sauerkraut, Mike. LOL

I used Inoculants on all my forage for as long as i farmed my preferred one for silage was SilaBac. Had 45 gal tank on the back of the chopper with a 12 volt electric pump that sprayed it in to the chopped feed stream right at the back of the cutter head on a 3970 JD chopper. That way the cross auger did a pretty good job of mixing it into the forage. Added a gallon of Amway spray adjuvant to the mix as well.   
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: mike_belben on February 13, 2022, 02:41:10 PM
Quote from: Bandmill Bandit on February 13, 2022, 01:52:08 PM
We Germans call it sauerkraut, Mike. LOL
thats pretty much it, lawn mower chicken kraut.  i have a 55 gallon drum of pickled grass and corn stover outside too from summer.  just to see what happens and if its something i can count on for a deep winter feed before i jump in and get animals.  whatever i raise, i wanna do it without any feed or doctoring bill at all and thats gonna take a lot of prudence, preparation and luck.   grass and rainwater in a tote is pretty economical if it works.  the salt content keeps it from freezing.  


ive been making pickles for a few years, and just started yogurt.  kraut is next.  "fun" for old men i guess.  
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: newoodguy78 on February 13, 2022, 02:48:24 PM
Bandmill were you making forage for dairy or beef cows?
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: mike_belben on February 13, 2022, 02:50:24 PM
id like to hear more about the different dietary requirements of either.. if anyone feels like typing. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: newoodguy78 on February 13, 2022, 02:53:01 PM
Silabac- is that a form of approprionic acid?
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: newoodguy78 on February 13, 2022, 03:19:12 PM
For dairy in a nutshell forage that is "harder" to digest typically leads to a higher percentage butterfat content. One of the few if not the only draw back to a full diet of lush pasture. One way we used to attempt combatting that was feeding a little corn silage and dry hay. It's very hard to have high production and high components. 
There's a reason the commercial dairy Industry pays a premium for components in milk they're difficult to get when focused on maximum production. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: newoodguy78 on February 13, 2022, 04:10:52 PM
I'll also add a good friend of mine works at a large dairy processing plant. Currently they are essentially limiting producers to 85% of their production. When the milk comes in the producers are charged the trucking to get it there , not paid for it then the plant pulls the cream essentially out of it to use and dumps the rest. 
Personally I'd be feeding it to pigs or dumping it down the drain before the truck got there. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: Bandmill Bandit on February 13, 2022, 06:09:41 PM
Quote from: newoodguy78 on February 13, 2022, 02:48:24 PM
Bandmill were you making forage for dairy or beef cows?
Both! We ran just over 80 dairy and 120 moma cows and the off spring from that. Generally had about 70 t o85 in the dairy barn and about 250 in the feedlot for the winter. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: newoodguy78 on February 13, 2022, 07:16:45 PM
Did you have any problems with DAs in your dairy herd? What was your RHA?
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: chevytaHOE5674 on February 13, 2022, 08:39:02 PM
Wrapped and bagged feed presents its own set of issues as well especially for a small time producer. You need to be able to harvest the crop quickly, and get it wrapped/ bagged immediately, which for a 1 or 2 man operation is often impossible. If you have to haul feed any sort of distance you are transporting a lot of water often result in extra transportation cost.The plastic needs to remain intact (few years back we wrapped a row of 100+ bales and every night the coyotes and bears would walk on top of it, within a week there was more tape on the wrap than actual wrap resulting in a nearly total loss). When it comes time to feed you need to be able to use enough feed to keep ahead of spoilage, silage in a 9' bag is often to much exposed feed for a small time producer. And currently at -30° the exposed silage or exposed end of wrapped bales is froze so solid you may as well feed your cattle concrete.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: Southside on February 13, 2022, 09:01:57 PM
Sadly Europe is miles ahead of us when it comes to forage harvest technology.  Single tractor systems that rake, bale, wrap, and bunch bales at the end of a windrow, right from the factory.  The same unit folds up and travels down the road at 50 MPH in places my dually is a tight squeeze.  One man can cut the field at dawn and have it put up that evening.  
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: chevytaHOE5674 on February 13, 2022, 09:15:56 PM
All that equipment is available here if your willing to pay the price for it. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: farmfromkansas on February 13, 2022, 09:34:20 PM
My neighborhood has some wrapping going on.  One guy has an Anderson that wraps a whole row of bales, and I considered buying a Vermeer single wrapper, but after I heard a guy a few miles away has one and has a lot of spoilage, decided to forget that.  Problem is the long wrapper requires many bales to be made and wrapped in a short time.  Also you need a silage baler.  My JD 468 is not a silage baler, and plugs when I try to bale something a little too wet. So I just keep my moisture tester handy and try to bale at the right moisture rate.                                                                      This winter the feed is going really well, not much waste, and cows are dong well, down side is we have had no rain since October.  3 small snow storms, most of it blew off the fields.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: Southside on February 13, 2022, 09:50:15 PM
One mistake guys make with a single bale wrapper is storing them on the round, even the promotional videos show it that way.  You need to turn them 90 degrees and store them on the flat, they keep a lot better that way.  I set my wrapper stationary and kick the bales off of it then grab them with a bale squeeze and take them away rather than roll the tractor ahead each bale.  
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: DaleK on February 14, 2022, 07:07:11 AM
Quote from: chevytaHOE5674 on February 13, 2022, 09:15:56 PM
All that equipment is available here if your willing to pay the price for it.
There have been two of the Krone baler/wrapper/buncher combo units running within 3 miles of me for probably 7-8 years now, and I believe a McHale not far away. Most of the "North American" brands have added something similar in the last 2-3 years. I'm stuck using my MF baler and Tubeline individual wrapper for a few more years
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: newoodguy78 on February 14, 2022, 08:26:57 AM
Any idea what one of those setups go for now? I'm sure they're expensive but with the inability to find help let alone help that is capable of running machinery without busting it up those type of units are becoming more appealing for multiple reasons. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: DaleK on February 14, 2022, 09:38:57 AM
I was told $130,000 Canadian last year
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: newoodguy78 on February 14, 2022, 09:59:28 AM
That's a big nut to crack. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: mike_belben on February 14, 2022, 12:16:36 PM
you can buy a lotta marshmallows for 130 Gs
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: Bandmill Bandit on February 14, 2022, 12:44:08 PM
Quote from: newoodguy78 on February 13, 2022, 07:16:45 PM
Did you have any problems with DAs in your dairy herd? What was your RHA?
You'll have too refresh my memory a bit. If DA is the local government Ag Rep the answer is no. Not sure what RHA is as I quit milking in 88. Maybe a terminology shift here?

One other thing that came out of that project was the reality that the higher the lactic acid content in the fermented forage the less energy required from the animals "on board resources" ( Thank Dr Brady for this term) to maximize production AND more importantly the quality of that product. Lactic acid content present in the forage has a direct correlation to BF and beef quality.

Chickens do very well on a barley/pea silage that is a little on the ripe side when harvested. I always left 80 acres till the beards were pretty much that purple/gold color and the peas were showing just the very odd blossom indicating the grain and the pea seed to be well formed and stating to ripen. That was my feed lot mix for the young stock.

My wife had about 60 to 80 hens and I always brought a couple of 5 gallon buckets to the house after feeding every other morning and threw it in a tub she had in the chicken pen. They cleaned it up very well and would be standing at the fence squaking the next morning for more.

I only added about 500lb of rolled barley to 10,000lbs ish of this forage in the mixer wagon and that was mostly to get the minerals and salts into the feed. My little uprite grain feed mixer with a 10 HP electric motor was 50 bu capacity and the barley was mostly the carrier for the minerals, salts, vitamins and other sundry micro nutrients as the years and conditions dictated. IF I was ever short of protein I added either soy or canola meal here as well.

I didn't fill it full max to mix because I liked my grain no more than 1 day old before it went in the mix wagon, so I rolled/mixed fresh every other day. It was pretty simple really. Flip a few switches and come back an hour later when the system shut down and throw in the mineral, salts, nutrients etc. into mixer and set the timer for 10 mintes and it was done. Pretty much fit my 2 hours time frame to feed and inspect the pens.                
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: newoodguy78 on February 14, 2022, 12:57:51 PM
DA - displaced abomasum, in layman's terms a twisted stomach
RHA- rolling herd average, essentially how many pounds of milk per lactation
Just to be clear I'm not trying to argue or discredit how anyone did or currently does something. As we both know raising ruminants can be as complex as you want to make it. I worked on dairy farms for quite awhile and always enjoyed it (well most of the time lol).
In my opinion there isn't a universal silver bullet answer that will work for everyone.
The more people I can pull from to gain knowledge whether I agree with it or not is a win to me.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: Bandmill Bandit on February 14, 2022, 12:59:46 PM
Quote from: newoodguy78 on February 14, 2022, 09:59:28 AM
That's a big nut to crack.
Having family and business interests in Germany I have had the opportunity to witness how the farmers there work to relieve that cost quite bit in some cases. 
Essentially they form what we call co-ops that own the equipment and then each share holder rents the equipment at much reduced rates. One or 2 of the share holders will be responsible for the equipment and its operation and rates are based on depreciation/projected replacement cost, operation including the 2 or 3 young bucks that are tasked with operation. So far (8 ish years) this has worked very well. They have expanded to other harvest equipment lines owned by the co-op as well as well.     
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: mike_belben on February 14, 2022, 01:21:34 PM
any thoughts on PH for poultry?   

sorta related.. i guess ive got a sick dog.  puppy really.  she has always been mischievous but is now digging around in the burn pit for things to chew on and has several times now consumed glass jars, i guess looking for trace elements she has the sensation of lacking?  i dunno.  she will eat burnt, rusty tin cans, plastic, etc. ive caught her chewing up wads of steel drill chips out of a scrap metal bin.   

i kinda thought she would die but has recovered from this several times. there is plenty of food there, other dogs are fine. this pup is a pig, growing great, not skinny.  

one day she was obviously in bad shape from i guess eating a glass jar (ive never seen this happen, just evidence of it.. to my horror and disbelief.  she knows its bad with me and is very sneaky about it not to get caught.  i keep thinking its over and then find a new hiding spot with evidence.)  remembering something jim told me regarding sick chickens, i gave her straight whey from a jar and she was doing much better almost immediately.  google said feed her bread to help coat and pass the glass with less change of intestinal bleeding which we did and she got back to being a happy pup running wild.   but we are back to her seeking something and i cant figure out what.  

any of you guys ever see this sort of stupid behavior in an animal that is well fed?  i think im about to give her some dog food with my deer mineral mix to see what happens. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: Bandmill Bandit on February 14, 2022, 01:34:03 PM
Quote from: newoodguy78 on February 14, 2022, 12:57:51 PM
DA - displaced abomasum, in layman's terms a twisted stomach

RHA- rolling herd average, essentially how many pounds of milk per lactation
Just to be clear I'm not trying to argue or discredit how anyone did or currently does something. As we both know raising ruminants can be as complex as you want to make it. I worked on dairy farms for quite awhile and always enjoyed it (well most of the time lol).
In my opinion there isn't a universal silver bullet answer that will work for everyone.
The more people I can pull from to gain knowledge whether I agree with it or not is a win to me.
Ok My memory is failing me a bit, BUT no DA issues what so ever!

The RHA was constantly on the rise from the time I joined dad as a partner. BUT to say it was all a result of going to bagged silage would be very misleading.

Dad started using AI in 1968 when I was 12 and while I was the one that brought the AI topic to the dinner table one after noon, after a school field trip to the just opened Western Breeders Association (WBA) facility just 30 miles from our farm, it was dad who decided to go the AI route.

In 1970 We joined the DHI project and engaged the WBA for genetic consulting to assist in the selection of bulls for our herd. They also assisted/taught us in the identifying of inferior heifers that went to the beef feedlot stream at birth and when sold funds were directed to the acquisition of new blood line quality heifers from breeders as far away as WA.

Transition to silage started in 1974 and we were total silage by 1979. Did first 4 bags in 78 and 22 bags in 1979.

RHA went from 38lbs @ 3.2/3BF per cow daily with animal production life expectancy of just a month or 2 under 7 years up to 56lbs @ 4.3/4BF daily production with life expectancy of 9.5 years.

Now if I were to attribute the improvement across those initiatives, I would say feed and genetics would make up at least 70% of it. The other 30% would be facility improvement, crop/feed management and use through education re nutrient application and use both in the field and in the herd.

Over all management was greatly improved by taking advantage of the annual DA offering of segment specific courses for the various aspects of a livestock operation including the field trips to top farms to observe the working and management of successful operations. I'm not sure how to rate that but it was a VERY important factor.        
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: Machinebuilder on February 14, 2022, 01:47:50 PM
Quote from: mike_belben on February 14, 2022, 01:21:34 PM
any thoughts on PH for poultry?  

sorta related.. i guess ive got a sick dog.  puppy really.  she has always been mischievous but is now digging around in the burn pit for things to chew on and has several times now consumed glass jars, i guess looking for trace elements she has the sensation of lacking?  i dunno.  she will eat burnt, rusty tin cans, plastic, etc. ive caught her chewing up wads of steel drill chips out of a scrap metal bin.  

i kinda thought she would die but has recovered from this several times. there is plenty of food there, other dogs are fine. this pup is a pig, growing great, not skinny.  

one day she was obviously in bad shape from i guess eating a glass jar (ive never seen this happen, just evidence of it.. to my horror and disbelief.  she knows its bad with me and is very sneaky about it not to get caught.  i keep thinking its over and then find a new hiding spot with evidence.)  remembering something jim told me regarding sick chickens, i gave her straight whey from a jar and she was doing much better almost immediately.  google said feed her bread to help coat and pass the glass with less change of intestinal bleeding which we did and she got back to being a happy pup running wild.   but we are back to her seeking something and i cant figure out what.  

any of you guys ever see this sort of stupid behavior in an animal that is well fed?  i think im about to give her some dog food with my deer mineral mix to see what happens.
Mike
I hope your pup does well.
I've never had a dog that doesn't chew on/eat random things. I catch mine with everything from charcoal to cans to cats.
Eating glass is a new one, I will guess its what is stuck to the glass more than the glass itself.
The bread thing is what people do when their dog is caught eating chicken bones, so it might work with glass.
I have one now that I have caught several times with rat poison, I think I have it all picked up now. She also will eat holes in blankets.
She eats sawdust while I am sawing.
My dogs are very healthy,even a little heavy.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: Nebraska on February 15, 2022, 08:10:04 AM
I dont think your dog is deficient in much Mike. Stupid is as stupid does. She has keyed in on some sort of smell that she identifies  as a food source or you, also some of it is recreational chewing.
 Pups find many ways to remove themselves from the gene pool. Old story....
  I was working on a feedlot steer in a chute. The young know it all cowboy kid who was tasked with helping the vet had a brand new healer puppy. Maybe 10 weeks old.  He let that pup go out in the pen with two other critters (big ones almost fat) they had separated off to bring this calf up to the working corral.  The pup was green and I looked over and said something about "you better get him out of there".  Pup lasted about half a minute of "learning" and was stomped  and out of the gene pool.   It was on the kid but I felt bad for the dog..
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: mike_belben on February 15, 2022, 09:54:02 AM
thanks doc.  i intend to breed her to produce guardian dogs for the future livestock that i am slowly converting the woods to hold.  she has plenty of canine fighting spirit, will probably fight a coyote, not a needy whining bark machine,  loves the cold or rain, extremely submissive to humans,, just flops on her back if i even look at her.. decent traits so far.  chicken eating not so good but theres electroshock therapy for that. 

but like you said, gene pool.  if she is dumb enough to eat glass and steel wool im not gonna reproduce that.  i hope she lives and smartens up but that choice is hers to make.  i want high performance, not retarded.  as of now she is fine again.  and still living a better life than roaming the street like the pack i took her from as a tiny pup.  all her siblings have been eaten. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: Nebraska on February 15, 2022, 01:36:50 PM
She will be fine...Just a quick add to what I said above, dogs and many other animals noses and muzzle facial areas are the most sensitive areas  on their bodies really and are the organs that they learn with. We have hands and thumbs 👍, thankfully dogs and cats don't ....oh geeze the thought of goats with thumbs just popped into my head, the horror!! :o
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: newoodguy78 on February 15, 2022, 04:37:14 PM
If goats developed thumbs there's nothing they couldn't escape or get into. Goats-the Houdinis of ruminants 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: Bandmill Bandit on February 16, 2022, 12:44:18 PM
I cant think of a more annoying animal to have on a farm or acreage. When we went AI we were able to get rid of the 3 billy goats we had to keep the 7 bulls in line. That was one of the happiest days of my farming career. Even that was a challenge cause 2 of them were having nothing to do with the interior of a stock trailer. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: mike_belben on February 27, 2022, 10:02:53 PM
https://northernaustraliandairyhub.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/Legumes_for_dairy_cattle.pdf

I was surprised to find out how much toxic legumes there are and what kind of issues they can create in livestock
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: Southside on February 27, 2022, 10:15:26 PM
Every plant is toxic at some level or time of year. It's how they evolved.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: mike_belben on February 28, 2022, 10:23:38 PM
i went and looked at the place i was offered to garden.  its a pretty big patch, for me anyways.  probably 15, 20 times bigger than my cumulative space at the house.  one complication is its a hill top with some sort of septic pumped up to it i guess. i couldnt make sense of the explanation but i think thats 2ft below grade so no issue to me, my tractor is lighter than his.   there is a buried water line in it as well that is shallower but if i hit that i can fix it at  least.  

one peculiar thing, is there seems to be an actual sinkhole right in the middle, size of a hot tub and with some standing water.  weve had about 4 inch of rain recently so the wetness is not too scary unless it remains or consumes a tractor.  sinkhole on a hill top not so normal here and no its not the tank.

the old mans son was there from hours away coincidentally so i got more of the story than he could have eeked out.. he can barely breathe or speak and is in an electric chair with one leg, bedridden otherwise.  but the son was able to explain that this is an old homestead and its been gardened about 60 years.  but it has been sprayed.  the plot is a really serious tufty clump turf that the old man called nutgrass.  i didnt look real hard at it and i dont think it was nut sedge but it was some seriously gnarly grass. he said no matter how thick you mulch you cant stay ontop of it so that was why it got sprayed.  he was mulching old hay in all his rows to fight the grass.  how many times sprayed or with what was not clear but lets assume a glyphosate etc.  2 or 3 years back so its gonna be in the dirt a while.


his tractor is split with transmission problems. but his implements all look maybe serviceable.  my tractor runs but probably too small for some of them.  the only thing i can think to do with this grass is turn it over with a bottom plow.  he has a 2 bottom mold board plow and i think with the shallow cut that id be after to bust this sod it may work. if not there is a box blade with rippers.  maybe i could set the rippers low, tear them through and poke corn in the crease with a stick and just leave the grass.  probably not ideal but i have a bag of truckers favorite white corn i have no place to really put.  

he has a disc and cultipacker as well.  if i turnover and disk it may break the clods up a bit but i bet half of them stand back up green side to the sky and the grass grows back in.  im concerned it wont make a great seedbed for a while. i shoulda brought a shovel and forgot, wonder if its sandy or loamy underneath, how deep the topsoil is etc.  foolish of me to not take a scoop but i think its an offer i better jump on anyway.

there is an established grape vine and a few apple trees that sounds like are suffering from colony collapse.  all need pruned. maybe i will just cover crop this place in something that flowers and hill some squash.  there are a few acres of planted pine that i may wish to purchase in the future when im ready to build. i doubt he will last that long but wife will be around if she doesnt sell and move.

he previously had 20-50 goats and all the electric fence stuff is still around plus a small goat barn. 

how would you guys deal with this grass?  neither of us have a tiller but it has been suggested some other fellow may lend one. the risk of breaking it has me hesitant, i try not to get dependant on others besides. and i have no plans of buying a tiller.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: btulloh on February 28, 2022, 10:48:09 PM
If it's nutsedge, any tillage will just spread it.  Nutsedge is incredibly hard to get rid of, but you can't just leave it alone. Never let it go to seed. If you remove any opportunity for photosynthesis for several years it will go away as long as there's no seed being dropped. The rhizomes will become inactive pretty quick when there's no support from above ground.  There are special treatments that will get rid of it, but you seem committed to not using any herbicide. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: mike_belben on February 28, 2022, 10:54:46 PM
i have a spec or two of nutsedge here that i tear out whenever i see it, and i really dont think thats what this was.    i will have to see when it comes in, im thinking its a warm season bunchgrass. im not that great at ID and will need it to come out of the boot before i can figure out. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: Southside on February 28, 2022, 11:16:57 PM
Cardboard mulch with wood chips over the top will smother anything under it.  I would suspect that plowing that soil is going to reveal a mess under the surface as fill dirt over a septic is just that - whatever they have and a thin layer of something to grow grass.  Smother and strip till would be my approach.  

The wet hole may very well be waste water coming up out of the field. I had a place with a stone and pipe field that did that.  The pipes and stone had become clogged over the years when solids exited the tank over the baffle from lack of maintenance and water would bubble out over the end of the drain field.  A couple of kegs of 30% hydrogen peroxide straight into the tank outlet cleaned up the issue and made for some interesting soil movement.  
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: mike_belben on March 01, 2022, 01:06:49 AM
i know southern septics fairly well from working for a guy, they are a lot different than northern ones.. but i dont know enough about grinder pump uphill setups.  they both claimed the septic tank was considerably farther and a good 10, 15 feet lower elevation, before this hill.  this is the highest spot in the yard and there was some sort of concrete D box looking thing with busted planks up on that hill that i could see into.  totally dry.  i dont really get it.  

since it is a plenty big area for me at present.. too big really, and the tall grass reveals where the lines are keeping it wettest, i could still just stay out of that end and probably be fine.

if i cardboard and wood chip over it there will be no planting for years.  the carboard would be floating several inches off the ground and itd probably become gopher heaven.  the bunches wont let the cardboard even lay down. 

i dunno.  i guess all i can do is try a few things when i get the logs and bunks off my trailer.  
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: newoodguy78 on March 01, 2022, 10:09:52 AM
New cardboard will sit on top.  Every piece of cardboard I've ever been around will follow any contour it's on once it's wet. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: mike_belben on March 01, 2022, 11:26:19 AM
i know but where do i get the dirt to put ontop the cardboard to make a seed bed this year? even if i could afford trucking wood chip over i dont think it can support a planting without at least another year of decomposition.  with food shortage in our face right now im not taking the chance.  


i think if i turn it over, let it germinate weed seeds, then disc those to death and plant heavy to cool and warm season clover that the clover blanket can stiffle most of the 2nd round of weed seed emergence and hold it through as the cool clover is replaced by the warm clover.  and i can plant a crop into a clover blanket, it will just feed it nitrogen.  my cool clover is just reviving right now with the sunny warmup here.  i need to figure out what seed ive got on hand to start poking into holes in my clover blanket actually. 

Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: newoodguy78 on March 01, 2022, 11:47:34 AM
In soils around here buckwheat is hands down the best smother crop I've used yet. Comes up fast totally shades out weeds, does well in poor soils, breaks down very easy and it's cheap. I've personally not had much luck getting pure stands of clover established without a nurse crop for shade. Oats has worked very well as a nurse crop to clover here. 
Just keep in mind all these"regenerative" practices seem to work however they do take awhile (potentially years). I very much respect what you're trying to do but to expect immediate and fantastic results producing usable products the first year is setting yourself up for disappointment in my opinion. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: mike_belben on March 01, 2022, 12:00:42 PM
I understand. I am accustomed to a fail succeed rate of about 4:1 so im just in a hurry to get the fails behind me, wont happen if i never start.  My home gardens are established enough to be reliable producers now. The efforts at the remote site are to get it started in that direction and find its flaws.  I hope i can shrink my 5 year tribulation here down to 2 over there. But it is very different ground.


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/0301221056.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1646153566)


This is my clover cover 5 minutes ago at home.  The bald spots are large wood chip grindings that remain intact.  Or spots i step where dogs have dug.  I lightly mulched the whole bed and it has melted away to the green mat.  I think its white ladino but didnt keep records like i should.  It went in pretty late in fall to not be scorched by an indian summer.


 It looks like my brassica plantings were too late and may fail. I dont know, first overwinter attempt.  The clover, wheat and winter pea can winter croak and "come back" it seems.  Looks like spinach might.  Others are questionable and some kaput.  Id have to find the list to figure out whats what.  

Im hopeful that i can poke in some spring stuff in the coming days and shade to suit.. Maybe keep some clover alive to feed N to neighbors in need.  As always i will report my findings.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: mike_belben on March 01, 2022, 12:04:36 PM
And i bought a back o buckwheat in 1BC

Thats 1 year Before Crisis.  Whoohoooo i have supplies!
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: newoodguy78 on March 01, 2022, 12:12:00 PM
Spinach will absolutely winter over. I put some in last fall, the goal here is to get it in and to the point that the leaves are slightly larger than a golf ball before winter sets in and it goes dormant. 

Was checking it the other day and looks really well,other years hasn't done so well. 
Would think with your milder winters spinach could work well. 

Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: mike_belben on March 01, 2022, 02:08:44 PM
Thanks for that info.  Looking closer my spinach was a bit smaller than that and winter a bit harsh at the start but it looks like it may recover partially.  2 weeks earlier probably woulda been the ticket.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: Nebraska on March 01, 2022, 02:44:36 PM
I have a good friend who gardens pretty big and he uses ripped out carpeting for mulch makes a hole for the plant or row and goes to it. Rolls them up at the end of the year.  Gets a few seasons  out of a roll and then it's done. No weeds.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: mike_belben on March 02, 2022, 09:04:38 AM
that is not a bad idea at all doc.


i cant afford to be driving over there very many times this year messing with vegetable production, based on fuel costs x 9mpg and 25ish miles one way with my non existent money situation.  so whatever i do has to be pretty hands off there this year. im not going over picking junebugs and tomatoes every day.  

im thinking a shallow turnover to flip the sod upside down as soon as i can manage.  let the roots bake in the sun and try to resprout the seeds.  disk or roll crimp that up hard to eradicate, 1 maybe 2 times if needed.  then broadcast and cultipack buckwheat for june to get the bees coming back.  i will put the bulk of my effort into getting the apples and grapes going again.  

i can crimp or maaaaybe harvest the buckwheat. well, i can definitely harvest it with a sickle and a few tote cages.  he has an offset disc mower, rake, tedder and square bailer that MIGHT work, and MIGHT work behind my tractor wide open in lowest gear, the machine has a pretty good creeper gear. just for a little buckwheat the iron maintenance effort is foolish.  but theres maybe 5  acres of hay that the place produces every year.  he wants to see it grow hay because thats just what the place is supposed to do. a small part of this is im trying to help an old man be comfortable leaving the world, knowing his place is cared for to his liking. he cant get himself adjusted in an electric wheelchair but talks about how he needs to change the belts on this and xyz on that.  i said dell.. its time to let this junk go, worry about the birds and sunsets while you can.  let me worry about the junk.

now if i had hay, i could have cow(s) goats etc but i cannot afford the risk of trading into livestock to overwinter without a GUARANTEED winter feed on hand. with china sending us messages of covid food shortages, we are certain to have food shortage which causes everyone to get animals and then feed shortages.  this is also why i started selecting chickens for best performance on table scraps, cover crops and fermented lawn. i need the feed piled before im willing to get another mouth to feed.

buckwheat could go in with hay as a percentage of ration, the seeds that hit the ground at harvest end up feeding birds for a while and then sow a winter cover blend to try getting the soil prime. i intend to put up bird houses over there that the boy will build and daughter can paint. i stuff my dryer lint into a gallon jug for birdhouse bedding all year.  i want those birds dealing with the pest insects instead of me.  and i want to trade my way into bees, which are gonna need a field of pollen, so buckwheat fits that model and then maybe grapes and apples will rejuvenate.

thats the tentative plan anyways.  too many irons in the fire at all times. i will do what i can and see if im any wiser next year.

if my plan to flip the sod looks like a total mistake after 1 pull, i think i will switch gears and just plant bigleaf vines like spaghetti squash, yellow longnecks, watermellon, pumpkin, cantaloupe, and butternut on hills and let it grow wild in this grass. i can dig a hole, put a few shovels of my compost in it, seed and just keep bringing more woodchip and cardboard/newspaper to stifle the grass around the seeds whenever i visit.  right as the grass is trying to come through the huge squash leaves will cloak them in darkness. i always have a very dense excess of giant squash leaves that shades anything beneath it to death here unless i clip them, which is continuous. wheelbarrow loads of squash and cuke leaves.

never have enough room for all the squash and mellon i want here at the house anyways, and i always get a blight at the tail end of the season. especially on the cukes.

anyways.. please critique- and thanks guys for being a sounding board to help me process my excessive thoughts, as always.  i think through my fingers. ive i dont type, i just stand around in a mental fog and nothing gets done. but when im done typing, there is clarity and action begins. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: newoodguy78 on March 02, 2022, 09:30:05 AM
Not sure when you get your first frost but that will be the end of your buckwheat. Really like it as a cover crop but it's delicate and not frost hardy at all, don't bank on it making it through the winter. 

Plus side is it grows fast and it's usually done what it's gonna do in 40-50 days around here. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: Southside on March 02, 2022, 09:43:10 AM
Ok. You asked for critique. You break that sod and you are inviting every single weed from three Counties to move in. Southern weeds are still upset about the War of Northern Aggression and looking for an opportunity to achieve vengeance.  Ask me how I know.

If you do turn the ground you will need an intensive management plan to be successful. Now and then attention will be a train wreck. There simply is too much of a seed bank in the soil for you to plant and forget about it, no matter how aggressive a cover crop you try. 

Strip tillage with significant smothering of the surrounding ground will retain moisture and give you a fighting chance of success. 

Just don't want to see you crash and burn. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: mike_belben on March 02, 2022, 10:57:12 AM
78- i only see the buckwheat as a fast brief hot season crop.  By fall id go to winter cover. 


Jim can you explain what you mean by strip tillage?  Im thinking rototiller rows but not sure if thats what you are meaning. 

I havent got a device that will rip this grass apart. The one little tiller i have, itll will just ball up and stall
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: DaleK on March 02, 2022, 11:48:43 AM
Quote from: Southside on March 02, 2022, 09:43:10 AM
Ok. You asked for critique. You break that sod and you are inviting every single weed from three Counties to move in. Southern weeds are still upset about the War of Northern Aggression and looking for an opportunity to achieve vengeance.  Ask me how I know.

If you do turn the ground you will need an intensive management plan to be successful. Now and then attention will be a train wreck. There simply is too much of a seed bank in the soil for you to plant and forget about it, no matter how aggressive a cover crop you try.

Strip tillage with significant smothering of the surrounding ground will retain moisture and give you a fighting chance of success.

Just don't want to see you crash and burn.
I'm wanting to try some bio strips after my wheat comes off this summer to plant '23 corn into, sold some $12 wheat this morning so hopefully I can afford some extra seed
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: newoodguy78 on March 02, 2022, 01:12:37 PM
The other thing to consider is bringing whatever that weed is home with you. Make sure you clean all your equipment the best you can there to eliminate as many hitchhikers as possible. I've got a couple fields with a weed that nothing short of a machete will kill, I've taken to washing the equipment off after going in those fields to help slow the spread.
Had bacterial kanker get into our early season field tomatoes. Came in on a variety they substituted to us because of supply shortages. Wiped out about an acre. I saved that field til absolutely last of the year. When I was done washed the equipment really well then oiled the dickens out of it and hopefully that stops it.
Second to the birds equipment is the biggest weed and disease spreader there is.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: mike_belben on March 02, 2022, 06:09:01 PM
On the subject of seeds and longevity of being viable. What type of seeds need to be bought every year and which will last a few years in storage?
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: Southside on March 02, 2022, 08:06:36 PM
Strip tillage is exactly what it sounds like. Only till a narrow strip where you are going to plant, the rest remains untilled. In this case you need to manage that sod ground otherwise it will simply fill back in, thus the smother suggestion.

As far as seed goes. In a nutshell, see what I did there, the stuff you want to grow needs to be new each year and weeds will last for at least three human generations in the worst possible conditions.  :D
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: mike_belben on March 04, 2022, 01:49:31 PM
thought just occurred to me.  how about drilling a row of post holes with a 3pt post hole digger maybe 2 feet deep and blending that dirt with a really good compost, refilling the hole and letting it hill over. transplant started cukes, squash etc at the top of the hill and mulch in cardboard and wood chips to block any weed seed.  i would expect the root system to take the path of least resistance straight downward.  the compost ensures widespread nutrients throughout the bore hole, and the ease that the root system will achieve depth ensures cool temps with high moisture access.  

anyone every see anything like this?
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: newoodguy78 on March 04, 2022, 06:54:37 PM
Vine crops not sure on , do know a guy that put in Christmas tree seedlings that way with good success. 
You are on the right track by putting them in as transplants in my opinion, anything you can do to get them ahead of weeds will be time well spent. 
All of the vine crops we grow on plastic except for hard squash and pumpkins with drip underneath. If left unattended the weeds between the beds will overcome the crops every time. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: mike_belben on March 04, 2022, 09:10:28 PM
i hang mine on strings and let the weeds do what weeds do, crop does fine.  i figure a few posts and high tensile wire could work over there.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: newoodguy78 on March 08, 2022, 11:34:39 AM
Does anyone out there have any experience Oregon State University extension service?
Specifically in regards to vegetable production. 
Been doing a bunch of research on the actual nutrient requirements of sweet corn and when they should be available, found what I feel is a good write up on the topic. Truthfully about the only decent one on sweet corn my search came up with. Plenty of info out there on field corn not so much on the sweet corn side. 

Reason I ask is the local extension around here is not the best in my opinion, great people to deal with but they flounder when asked the hard questions that are outside the box so to speak. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: beenthere on March 08, 2022, 01:11:22 PM
Extension people, for the most part, can only pass on information found in the resources available to them. Likely you can find those same resources.
They may encourage needed research elsewhere.

Find those doing the research and doing the experimenting, such as the Ag Universities with professors training grad students, etc.

Sweet corn seed companies would likely be your best source for information. They do the genetic crossing and testing of their seed to get the best results. They may know of the research (and may even fund such research) at the universities.

Good luck.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: newoodguy78 on March 08, 2022, 02:34:19 PM
The issue is the local extension I deal with is based out of the local agricultural university. 
My frustration starts when I start asking these people be it interns, professors or even ones with their doctorates in the field what I feel are the most basic of questions and they just go blank. Literally deer in the headlights look. 
Determined to figure it out even if I fail at it initially. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: thecfarm on March 09, 2022, 06:51:08 AM
I had real good luck laying down a piece of clear plastic and weighed down the edges with boards and rocks. 
That killed the grass under it. Just like a greenhouse, but no water.
The sun cooked the grass. Does not take long. 
But that would shorten your growing season up a lot. 
But the way you all are talking, that would only kill the green stuff on top, not the roots.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: farmfromkansas on March 15, 2022, 09:54:47 PM
I used to plant tomatoes by digging a hole, putting manure in the hole, then a little dirt on top and the tomato in the dirt, then when the roots grew down into the manure, the tomato goes crazy.  Then I found you can grow tomatoes in straight compost.  Also green beans.  My wife planted a couple rows of green beans around the edges of the raised beds, and had enough to freeze several bags, along with about all we could eat.  Squash also did well in straight compost.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: newoodguy78 on April 17, 2022, 08:45:31 PM
Does anyone have experience with white mustard as a cover crop. Been doing some research and it seems to be something that might work for what I have in mind. 

Thinking of trying it as a biofumigant in one of last year's tomato fields. Had bacterial canker get into the field and wiped out about an acre. It's not going into tomatoes again but I'd like to do something to eradicate it. 

Mustard especially certain varieties have high levels of glucosinolates. All brassicas have it at some level that's what makes them "hot".  The levels are highest about 40 days after sprouting. At that point for this application you chop it up and work it into the ground. From reading water is what activates the glucosinolates and the sooner it's watered the more effectively it works. 

I've got more info on it but don't want to bore everyone  :D
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: Walnut Beast on September 14, 2022, 03:49:09 PM
Just got done spraying some
[color=var(--heading)]PHRAGMITES COMMON REED [/color]

Anybody else have any around. The stuff looks cool but they say it's nasty stuff with a crazy long root system
 This stuff is what you want to kill it and get down in the root system.  The plant just laughs at Roundup (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/59695/0C03CA6A-6C86-4F14-A579-82623560B725.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1663185537)
 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: Southside on September 14, 2022, 05:30:44 PM
Funny, I bought seed to plant Reed Canary because it has such a long root system.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: Walnut Beast on September 14, 2022, 05:32:13 PM
I could have sent you some of those seeds 😂😂
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: newoodguy78 on September 14, 2022, 06:48:16 PM
I know a bunch of guys that grew it for forage. It's since been declared an invasive in this state and you can no longer buy it. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: Walnut Beast on September 14, 2022, 07:46:37 PM
Talked to the weed control guy and he said there are guys out there around here using drones to spray to get into hard to reach places
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: Southside on September 14, 2022, 08:45:38 PM
But I bet you can get K31 Fescue. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: newoodguy78 on October 21, 2022, 08:24:03 PM
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/40841/F90486F6-04B6-44F6-AF66-F159442E892F.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1666398033)
 
Steaming tobacco. You know it's been a dry year when you see this. Usually they'll have to use some heat to get it right for marketing, not this season. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: Southside on October 21, 2022, 10:10:18 PM
Not smoke curing? 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: newoodguy78 on October 22, 2022, 11:27:59 AM
I've heard of smoke curing tobacco. That I know of its not a practice that's used around here.
Never realized until recently how delicate the tobacco crop is, conditions have to be just right or it's damaged simply handling it.
All the tobacco producers around are smiling they had a real good year. I'm glad to see it. Amazingly labor intensive fickle crop to produce.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: wisconsitom on February 05, 2023, 05:49:33 PM
Note on reed canary grass versus giant reed:
Reed canary grass and giant reed, aka Phragmites;  2 different plants.  Both have forms native to N.America but which have been taken over by more vigorous Eurasian forms, resulting in species with strongly invasive tendencies here.  Reed canary grass equates to "marsh hay" in old school farmer parlance around here.  No friend to the forest, vast areas which once supported wet-tolerant forest types are now just RCG.  Trees don't get started in that stuff.

Phragmites goes down into wetter areas.  There, it crowds out all other vegetation.

Both plants are largely problems in N. America.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: Southside on February 05, 2023, 08:34:02 PM
One man's problem is another's solution. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: Nebraska on February 05, 2023, 10:33:17 PM
Ss, You have a use for Phragmites??   I utilize a little Reed Canarary for both hay and grazing.  Not the best grass but was better than no grass this year.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: Southside on February 05, 2023, 10:42:37 PM
Absolutely, we go from bone dry to so wet you can't walk in some areas, then back to dry.  Anything that can stand being submerged in that low ground, and keep growing when the ground gets hard is my summer salvation. 

For the past two years I have tried to buy Reed seed but it's pretty much been unavailable due to the drought in the upper Midwest where it's harvested for seed. 
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: dairyguy on February 06, 2023, 08:12:15 AM
Quote from: wisconsitom on February 05, 2023, 05:49:33 PM
Note on reed canary grass versus giant reed:
Reed canary grass and giant reed, aka Phragmites;  2 different plants.  Both have forms native to N.America but which have been taken over by more vigorous Eurasian forms, resulting in species with strongly invasive tendencies here.  Reed canary grass equates to "marsh hay" in old school farmer parlance around here.  No friend to the forest, vast areas which once supported wet-tolerant forest types are now just RCG.  Trees don't get started in that stuff.
Reeds Canary grass is not shade tolerant.  So if it is creeping onto your ground you didnt have much for forest anyway.   But if you have cows it is an amazing grass.   It will grow out there with the cat tails and endures well during drought on that makes rock hard cracked clay.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: wisconsitom on February 06, 2023, 08:31:26 AM
The RCG moves in after a disturbance of some kind, then holds the spot.

This is nothing to argue about;. Numerous examples can be seen, by my eyes or yours.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: newoodguy78 on February 06, 2023, 02:37:43 PM
Quote from: dairyguy on February 06, 2023, 08:12:15 AM
Quote from: wisconsitom on February 05, 2023, 05:49:33 PM
Note on reed canary grass versus giant reed:
Reed canary grass and giant reed, aka Phragmites;  2 different plants.  Both have forms native to N.America but which have been taken over by more vigorous Eurasian forms, resulting in species with strongly invasive tendencies here.  Reed canary grass equates to "marsh hay" in old school farmer parlance around here.  No friend to the forest, vast areas which once supported wet-tolerant forest types are now just RCG.  Trees don't get started in that stuff.
Reeds Canary grass is not shade tolerant.  So if it is creeping onto your ground you didnt have much for forest anyway.   But if you have cows it is an amazing grass.   It will grow out there with the cat tails and endures well during drought on that makes rock hard cracked clay.
@dairyguy (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=59854) are you using it for feed? If so are you drying it or putting it up as a silage. I can remember cutting some in the past that was essentially on a river bottom flood plain piece that stayed wet until august, we ended up using it as bedding simply because you couldn't get on it before it was gone by. Used to call it elephant grass, it got so big an elephant could walk in there and not be seen. The yields were incredible. The root mass was impressive as well.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: dairyguy on February 07, 2023, 12:43:33 PM
Quote from: newoodguy78 on February 06, 2023, 02:37:43 PM
Quote from: dairyguy on February 06, 2023, 08:12:15 AMReeds Canary grass is not shade tolerant.  So if it is creeping onto your ground you didnt have much for forest anyway.   But if you have cows it is an amazing grass.   It will grow out there with the cat tails and endures well during drought on that makes rock hard cracked clay.
@dairyguy (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=59854) are you using it for feed? If so are you drying it or putting it up as a silage. I can remember cutting some in the past that was essentially on a river bottom flood plain piece that stayed wet until august, we ended up using it as bedding simply because you couldn't get on it before it was gone by. Used to call it elephant grass, it got so big an elephant could walk in there and not be seen. The yields were incredible. The root mass was impressive as well.
I am not set up to grow rice so RC grass it is.    By the time mid summer rolls around it is so mature and dead-ish & dry it has to be hay.   It is not as absorbent as straw but keeps the calves high, dry, and warm from Thanksgiving thru mud season.    

For us it has a great mineral profile for feeding dry cows.   So use it as a niche feed and for bedding.    It is nice to have a spot to spread on too.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: chevytaHOE5674 on February 07, 2023, 01:17:49 PM
RCG has it place. I graze cows on lots of it in wetter parts of the pastures, also run the green chopper over some and feed it out. When the weather works out I love to make a June cutting of dry hay or balage of it as it is good feed and good tonnage per acre. It also grows back nicely for a 2nd cutting/grazing.

When baled late in the season I run the chopper in the baler then use it as bedding mainly.
Title: Re: The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread
Post by: Greentree on December 03, 2023, 06:17:04 PM
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