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How 'bout this Joinery? Here is How

Started by Magicman, January 31, 2021, 03:26:45 PM

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everythingwood

It would be fantastic to see the joints disassembled. I have been trying to work through it in my head and I'm now thinking the "simple" way to cut them would indeed be the way Magicman shows it.  If you cut the joint parallel to the timber I think it would require a 3-D pattern for each half against which you could continually check your carving.  Third method would be to only cut the pattern on the outer two-inches or so of the joint and have the interior flat.  I think that might allow you to use 2-D templates.

Hilltop366

Quote from: Magicman on February 03, 2021, 08:18:43 AM


 
There was more going on with this joint than I realized.  
That helps, looks much more doable. A pattern that is positive and negative alternating left and right, remove top and bottom waste down to the tallest peak (flat) draw peeks and valleys across joint at 45°, saw cut (single kerf) for valleys and lower peaks and lots of chiseling. 
Its hard to tell but if the entire joint slops to the outside of the building it it just got harder but it does not look that way to me in the diagram, I suspect a large overhang is the protection from water.
All a guess. Sounds easy. ;D

Tom King

An old carpenter told me one time, "You can build something real fast, in your head."

ScottCC

My guess is it goes all the way though and design shows inside.  Either an empty space exists inside or is infilled with scrap to complete look.  This let's a a builder use a profiling machine of sorts to produce.  Also, owner would enjoy looking at work while in front of fire.

If a person had a jig to check their whittling how long would one connection take to make if chisel methods were used?  1.5 days my guess.

To me that means very few buildings look like this.  Therefore there must be a much more productive way to go.  People have never been that patient, rich or focused in the history of man.  I'm also sure beer would not help in this case.
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DonW

I did find a view of these joints under construction and exposed. Not Slovenian necessarily but a version of a log building technique used in East Central Europe called, in German, "Zierschrot". 
Hjartum yxa, nothing less than breitbeil/bandhacke combo.

jcalderera

Hello all, I just wanted to chime in here.  If this joint is located in Tirosek, Slovenia (as mentioned in Reply #12 by Andries), I will be able to go check it out.  I live about an hour away from there.  Slovenia is small, so if its anywhere in the country I'm only a day-trip away.  

I have not yet done any research other than browse the article mentioned in that post, but I couldn't help but to write right away because I am excited to see the building, as well as the other buildings mentioned in the article.  

I'll try to find people I can talk to, take lots of pics (if I find it!) and relay any info I get.  

Tom King

I'd love to see more pictures.  Anything else the same builders did.

Magicman

This is exciting jcalderera.  I look forward to reading about your research.
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DonW


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I hope we aren't sending Caldera on Goose chases. All examples I've come across of the  joint are Austrian. But could be you are near the boarder.
Hjartum yxa, nothing less than breitbeil/bandhacke combo.

Andries

Quote from: jcalderera on February 07, 2021, 01:13:22 PM. . .   If this joint is located in Tirosek, Slovenia (as mentioned in Reply #12 by Andries), I will be able to go check it out.  I live about an hour away from there. . . . 
This is the website and photo source that I quoted from:
Balkan Vernacular Architecture : Tirosek - Slovenia 
Good hunting!
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DonW

Hjartum yxa, nothing less than breitbeil/bandhacke combo.

kiwi007

I found an almost identical corner connection on page 59, picture 42 in the following book: "Holzbaukunst, Der Blockbau" published by Herman Phleps, Fachblattverlag Dr Albert Bruder, Karlsruhe, 1942. It is described as originated in the eastern European Alps.

Phleps book is a major work on old wooden buildings in northern and central Europe.

There is an english translation published in 1989 "The Craft of Log Building: A Handbook of Craftsmanship in Wood". Pricey if you can get a second hand copy. But highly recommended.

SwampDonkey

Great craftsmanship for sure. I wouldn't want to attempt it. ;D I've seen some dovetailed ends in old homes done by Scandanvian immigrants in ND. There's some saved/moved to parks or historical site museums. A dovetail would be much easier. :)
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SwampDonkey

Quote from: jcalderera on February 07, 2021, 01:13:22 PM

I'll try to find people I can talk to, take lots of pics (if I find it!) and relay any info I get.  
Diddo to what Magicman said. I can imagine it's one of them joints probably rarely seen practised anymore.

I have a book on joinery here someplace in the loot. It's photos of old buildings in the old countries. A more recent text than quoted earlier.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

DonW

It was an economy where Labour was cheap and materials were not that produced such work and making the extra effort sensable and practicle by getting the most out of those expensive materials. At the same time an infrastructure existed that stimulated the skills to produce the work. Probably a good training for the corner joint would the intermediate walls, work handed to the apprentice. 
Hjartum yxa, nothing less than breitbeil/bandhacke combo.

Tom King

Quote from: kiwi007 on February 14, 2021, 12:32:34 AM
I found an almost identical corner connection on page 59, picture 42 in the following book: "Holzbaukunst, Der Blockbau" published by Herman Phleps, Fachblattverlag Dr Albert Bruder, Karlsruhe, 1942. It is described as originated in the eastern European Alps.

Phleps book is a major work on old wooden buildings in northern and central Europe.

There is an english translation published in 1989 "The Craft of Log Building: A Handbook of Craftsmanship in Wood". Pricey if you can get a second hand copy. But highly recommended.
Many thanks for posting the title of that book!!  After looking at ebay, and a few Google searches, and seeing that it typically goes for over a hundred bucks, I found a hardcover one for $71, at Thriftbooks.


SwampDonkey

Quote from: Tom King on February 14, 2021, 08:50:47 AMMany thanks for posting the title of that book!!  After looking at ebay, and a few Google searches, and seeing that it typically goes for over a hundred bucks, I found a hardcover one for $71, at Thriftbooks.
Some of those online bookstores you have to watch their prices close. Like Hilltop posted, that book can be had brand new for half that. Amazon works the same, I go to the places that deals with the craft in question before I hit that buy button on them books stores. Saves a lot of $$. ;) Saw a book recently listed on Amazon for $125, but was reprinted recently, only $40 bucks. ;) Those book outfits have a hard time to make a living off me. ;D  $57 for a soils textbook at the University, over $200 on Amazon for same. :D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Tom King

Yes, but that's a paperback, reprint.  

Tom King

I wonder what type of grain, and how deep it was piled in there.  There may well have been some history, before this joint, of past failures.

kiwi007

Quote from: Hilltop366 on February 14, 2021, 09:20:31 AM
Is this the same book? Canada  https://www.leevalley.com/en-ca/shop/tools/books-and-dvds/20131-the-craft-of-log-building?item=49L0703

or in the USA

https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/tools/books-and-dvds/20131-the-craft-of-log-building?item=49L0703
Looks like this is the English translation. I have only a photocopy of the original German book made in the 70s. Therefor I can't confirm that. Maybe another member has these books and can confirm.
At that price it's almost a bargain and definitely a good addition to any framer's library, especially if you intend to use some more "exotic" connections.

Andries

Quote from: DonW on February 07, 2021, 10:03:02 PMAndries you asked earlier about a view of the joint pre-assembly. Flag down from this Zierschrot ? Lost Art Press site then.
Thank you @DonW. That image says a lot.



I see a glued up timber (the grain pattern varies) and the join looks to be made with a shaper or very specialized chain mortiser/ power planer. Also, the text indicates that this is a modern day work - not something found in a Black Forest cuckoo clock makers museum.
Also, the ridges and waves are set at right angles to the beam or timber. Which doesn't agree with the 3D drawing the @Magicman posted a while back. 



That image seems to show the ridges to go on a 45 degree angle to the timber.
The mystery, or practical joke continues.
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DonW

The material in this example is machined to very accurate, uniform, high-tech dimensions before any layout begins, simplifying things n this instance but older traditional examples exist too ( I'd thought I'd included links to examples earlier ). I couldnt say how automated or not the joinery is but there are hand tool traces for at least portions. It seems the layout is based on a heart-line and that would be typical for hand cut joints. The CAD version is an incorrect interpration, infinately more complex and also unworkable in combination with four corners.  
Hjartum yxa, nothing less than breitbeil/bandhacke combo.

kiwi007

Quote from: Tom King on February 14, 2021, 08:50:47 AM
Quote from: kiwi007 on February 14, 2021, 12:32:34 AM
I found an almost identical corner connection on page 59, picture 42 in the following book: "Holzbaukunst, Der Blockbau" published by Herman Phleps, Fachblattverlag Dr Albert Bruder, Karlsruhe, 1942. It is described as originated in the eastern European Alps.

Phleps book is a major work on old wooden buildings in northern and central Europe.

There is an english translation published in 1989 "The Craft of Log Building: A Handbook of Craftsmanship in Wood". Pricey if you can get a second hand copy. But highly recommended.
Many thanks for posting the title of that book!!  After looking at ebay, and a few Google searches, and seeing that it typically goes for over a hundred bucks, I found a hardcover one for $71, at Thriftbooks.
This is a picture part of the old photocopy: Sorry quality is not the best.

 

Tom King

That drawing seems more resistant to spreading, which would probably be a good thing for a granery.

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