The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread

[newoodguy78]

Yes ,I've tested every field 

[Southside]

Around these parts every field tests me.  :D

[Bandmill Bandit]

Do I dare introduce the topic of aerobic/an-aerobic bacterial production and the critical role that the balance AND transition through the crop season that those processes control?? That might need another thread.   

[mike_belben]

This IS the thread for that.  Lets hear it.  bon_fire

[Bandmill Bandit]

Oh Boy! Not be cause I am afraid to do it BUT because I don't have the Extension Course material any more.

So I am going to reach out to the forum membership for help here and see if we can recover the material some how, some where.

During the late 70s there was major Research project that was a joint effort amongst several of the Ag schools at several Universities with the lead school being Texas A&M,
Wisconsin SU and Washington SU and several others including UofA in Alberta.

There were several Ag Industry sponsors including SiloPress USA (Iowa), SiloPress Alberta Ltd.(me) AgBag, Harvestor USA, and a few of the upright and horizontal silo storage companies. Also there were several feedlot groups and dairy producer groups as well.

The lead research professors name was Anthony W. Brady. He was a long time Faculty member in the School of Agriculture at T A&M and this was his retirement project. IT was published in 1980 I think. I was a Certified instructor for this course in Alberta. 

It was a 4 Day intense Ag extension course offered by the Alberta Ag Extension office and was done very much the same way in the USA. The first day section was called Liars Figure but Figures Don't Lie. Day 2 was Protein & Energy vs Nitrogen, Phosphates etc. & Mineralization. Day 3 was Fermentation and the nutrient conversion processes. Day 4 was Field nutrition vs herd nutrition. Dont hold me to the order but I think I got it right. 
   
SO if any one could help me find that course material I would be able to provide pretty much the entire course material. I will reach out to Texas A&M on Monday and see if theres a chance this material is still available.  If we can pull it together maybe a webinar would be in oder. ( Oh boy! now I am really going out on a limb. did the last seminar in 1985)

Please let me know if you can help. I have names of people in Iowa that were also instructors for the course that may well have the material as well.       

[newoodguy78]

That would be an interesting read. With that lineup of sponsors was it focused towards forage production?

[Bandmill Bandit]

It was livestock production focused from field to plate with about 60% focus on Forage from all forms of dry through the very wet forage theories and practises of the day including the use of fermented high moisture grains and recycled manure mixes. (Mostly poultry)   

[mike_belben]

it sounds like the cutting edge information of its day, but i think you will find the next 40 years of research and the advancements in laboratory equipment and electron microscopes, have really, really advanced the field of study to include vast new information that is emerging day by day even still.    

stuff like this.. pretty amazing imagery of the rhizophagy cycle..  showing how plant roots and bacteria are co-dependent. 

















thats just screengrabs from one youtube video.  a lot of things to dislike about the internet age but it is amazing how successfully it has torn down the cost barrier to education if one is willing to seek.  im optimistic about the food future getting better as people take that part of their life back from walmart. 


bacterially, ive read that anaerobic bacterial families are more likely to be pathogenic, but with thousands of species its a broad generalization to make.  aerobic ones are supposed to be more probiotic and i guess is why a compost pile is to be turned, for example. not that it wont degrade if you dont, but that the bacteria the turning favors are less likely to cause problems.   

[newoodguy78]

I agree it sounds like cutting edge stuff for its day. Without seeing the information I will say this. not all of the fermented feed and storage options worked out to benefit the growers/ producers. When you start pushing animals with "maximum efficiency " feed while ignoring dry matter intakes problems arise and get quite costly. I've seen and dealt with it first hand.  Think of eating a straight diet of pickles with nothing else. There's a reason harvestore and sealstor silos are commonly called bankruptcy tubes in this area. There's far more standing empty with barns falling down around them than being used. 
It's like anything it takes a balance of many things to keep the adverse effects of the item beside it in check.
Bandmill I hope you're able to find some of this info, quality forage production is something I've always enjoyed. Don't matter whether it's for ruminants or humans  :D

[mike_belben]

i do a lot of pondering as i plug away at the endless chores of my life.  not too long ago i got into cornish cross broilers, knowing that they were a race car of a bird designed to eat all the grain you can give it, and inflate into a monster bird by 6 weeks.   theyre known for heart and leg problems as well as dying in high percentages by the time you hit 10 weeks or so.  

thats not really very surprising since we are feeding them highly inflammatory grains in massive quantities to get this fast gain.  because of the market paying by the pound, we celebrate this intensive line breeding of essentially a diabetic newborn.  the cornish cross is the bird that gets sickest fastest from commercial feed, so it can make us the most money per pound of feed.  thats a pretty twisted goal in my opinion.

if you give a bird, cow, pig or human a broad based anti-biotic the creature will gain weight.  since all but humans are sold by the pound we consider that to be a win. but in humans, we are starting to realize killing off the microbiome via antibiotics causes a weight gain from inflammation leading to chronic sickness and disease. i dont know about you, but i dont want to eat an animal that is loaded full of stuff thats killing it for a mark up.  sure it makes the producer a profit but what is it gonna do for me when i eat it?  this sounds like the 303 oil situation.  TSC makes a tidy sum and i get a sick machine by thinking im saving money.  it just produces a screwed up world i guess when profit is all you care about. inflation leaves us no choice in the matter either.  gotta continually cut corners to make the same.

my remaining birds are 5.5 months old now and grew at a layers pace instead of a broilers.  they are full sized and feathered now, have survived a pretty harsh outdoor winter, have zero health problems, can fly, and have cost me almost nothing. theyve lived on very little feed.  instead eating mostly fruit and vegetable table scraps, and the surplus of squash i grew last year that stayed outside and got mushy.  they tear up banana peels and apple cores and so forth.  im pretty confident if i kept them on straight commercial feed theyd be dead by now.  

im going to line breed the remainder just for a hobby/educational experience to see what they become on a more natural diet.  

[Bandmill Bandit]

Ill wade into the silage/wet fermented forage segment here a bit. Remember its be 35 years since I taught the course for 2 winters.

1stly You will never see a ruminant animal grazing in a pasture by plucking off the grass and laying in the sun to dry down so they can come back and eat it. No matter the time of year. As the summer passes and the grazing forages dry down water intake increases accordingly. The rumen of all ruminants operates at 80% moister +/- 2 % year around.

The drier the forage intake the higher the water intake before the animal can process the food. Dry matter intake can be very misleading. more "dry matter means the energy required to convert nutrients to productivity is increased substantially decreasing that actual potential out put of the animal

NONE of the so called "sealed" Silos are actually sealed! They restrict air transfer better, but do not eliminate it altogether. Sealed Silos were doomed before the first one was built, partially because bottom unloading had a whole list of problems in and of it self which restricted loading options including moisture content that could lead to freezing issues etc etc in the colder climates.

You can do a better job in an uprite silo by very careful management of the moister content of forage into the silo how ever this is not fool proof either, but more manageable.

Pit type silos can give very good feed BUT again management of the facility is critical

That brings us to Bags. The only truly sealed option when meticulously MANAGED. That word belongs on a the key chain of high quality forage production.

To achieve optimum conditions for a high quality forage you need to be as close to a sealed environment as is possible.

Forage needs to be no dryer than 60% moisture and no wetter than the upper 70% range. With a bagger you need to get the packing pressure within an acceptable range which is not that difficult to do. You want to be in the 60 to 80 lb of forage per cubic foot depending on a whole lot of forage conditions, one of which is cut length. 3/8"s is optimal!

If the bag is coming off the tunnel about 3 to 5 inches above rear tunnel support tube you are in the ball park. Close enough!

Now we get to the critical factors of bag Management. SEAL THE BAG immediately after pulling the bag off the back of the machine. The AEROBIC ferment has started and the more of the Methane gas you lose the poorer your feed quality will be. A roll of patch tape is your best friend for the next 48 hours. DO NOT "VENT" THE BAGS under any circumstances.

The methane is to the AN-AEROBIC bacteria as oxygen is to you and I. During the first 48 hours the internal temp should rise to about 100° to 105°! 110° MAX!

Without methane you end up with either an over heated bag of silage or a "cold pack" that will be worth a bit more than a bale of wheat straw in terms of nutritional value.  

The next 21 days are critical. Inspect the bags a few times a day. For the first 48 to 72 hours, the Aerobic Gremlins are hard work eating oxygen with gusto raising the internal temperature and producing Methane. As the Oxygen level drops and the methane level rises and the Anaerobic gremlins multiply exponentially and start to do their job producing lacto basilic bacteria that generate lactic acid, preserving the feed/converted nutrients causing the pressure in the bag to subside till the bag appears to actually have been vacuum sealed IF you have been meticulous with bag management. The job of the bag is to advance the digestion of the forage in storage as far as possible to reduce the amount of energy the animal has to expend to do that task in it's own gut.

If you have done a good job you will have a feed Quality that you never thought you could get.

Heres what you can expect

PH of 6 min 7 max; same as the cows rumen!
moister of 60% to 70%; 10 ish % lower the the rumen
Usable Protein and energy will be higher. substantially higher TDN
A very stable lactic acid fermented feed the will be quite resistant to spoilage

What the bags can do is pretty much reduce the feed processing energy requirement of the rumen by up to 80% because the bag has done the job that rumen of the animal is designed to do. Cud chewing is drastically reduced as the only purpose it serves is to mix the animals saliva enzymes into the "ponch manure" that the "ponch" (second stomach) needs to to promote the next phase of the digestion process.

The above is basically a summary of the day 3 morning segment if I remember right.

I know there will be question because I tried to keep it short. (fail)

Fire away!

BUT Please don't start with cows requiring LONG, DRY forage strands in the ration to stimulate the rumen. Find me one cow pie that has a single strand of feed residue that exceeds 3/8" long and I might listen.      
                   

Mike the cutting edge to day is so much advanced. those are amazing pictures nad i am sure there is stuff out that helps explain the the aerobic an-aerobic process as well. With out carbon, oxygen and methane this planet will die in a relatively short time.

[mike_belben]

That was awesome bandit. 

 Ken hamilton at biomineral technologies has a pretty good site regarding aerobic and anearobic bacteria in manure lagoons and wrapped bales.  He raises feedlot beef on marshmallows where before bailing its sprayed with an innoculant to ensure certain proven probiotic bacteria dominate the ferment. They turn almost black.. Carmelized.  Cows smash thru it. 

Its exactly what youre saying.. Controlling the conditions and bacteria so that maximum digestion and absorption of nutrient, mineral and vitamin gets into the tissue with minimal energy expended doing so.   I talked to them on the phone  once, His pure grass finishing times in a feedlot were pretty impressive.  Almost as quick as corn finish if im not mistaken, and absolutely a better animal for you to consume.  Omega 6 to  3 ratio is way high in a grain beef and correct in a grass animal. 

His vids 
Fermented Forage - Process and Benefits - YouTube

Fermented Forage Testimonial - YouTube



From september to the grass kill i fed my chickens as an experiment on a pickled grass basically. A 5 gallon bucket of the best grass and forages i rounded up (dock, plaintain, yellow sweet clover etc) for the bagger mower. 2 passes then into a 5gallon bucket full of water with some salt and vinegar to begin the ferment.  When the top is coated in a white skin of kahm yeast its ready.  Ground up garden veggie rejects and feed corn i raised also went in.  

The bucket would last a few weeks and continually break down from grass blades to a green mash.  They gobbled that right down.  I consider the bucket a chicken rumen.  I withheld ration compared to what a cornish cross is willing to eat, in order to grow a slower bird rather than the inflatable freaks that they typical are. Just experimenting.  But yeah.. You can raise chickens on mostly lawn if you predigest the non digestible fiber for them first.

[Bandmill Bandit]

We Germans call it sauerkraut, Mike.

I used Inoculants on all my forage for as long as i farmed my preferred one for silage was SilaBac. Had 45 gal tank on the back of the chopper with a 12 volt electric pump that sprayed it in to the chopped feed stream right at the back of the cutter head on a 3970 JD chopper. That way the cross auger did a pretty good job of mixing it into the forage. Added a gallon of Amway spray adjuvant to the mix as well.   

[mike_belben]

We Germans call it sauerkraut, Mike.

thats pretty much it, lawn mower chicken kraut.  i have a 55 gallon drum of pickled grass and corn stover outside too from summer.  just to see what happens and if its something i can count on for a deep winter feed before i jump in and get animals.  whatever i raise, i wanna do it without any feed or doctoring bill at all and thats gonna take a lot of prudence, preparation and luck.   grass and rainwater in a tote is pretty economical if it works.  the salt content keeps it from freezing.  


ive been making pickles for a few years, and just started yogurt.  kraut is next.  "fun" for old men i guess.  

[newoodguy78]

Bandmill were you making forage for dairy or beef cows?

[mike_belben]

id like to hear more about the different dietary requirements of either.. if anyone feels like typing. 

[newoodguy78]

Silabac- is that a form of approprionic acid?

[newoodguy78]

For dairy in a nutshell forage that is "harder" to digest typically leads to a higher percentage butterfat content. One of the few if not the only draw back to a full diet of lush pasture. One way we used to attempt combatting that was feeding a little corn silage and dry hay. It's very hard to have high production and high components. 
There's a reason the commercial dairy Industry pays a premium for components in milk they're difficult to get when focused on maximum production. 

[newoodguy78]

I'll also add a good friend of mine works at a large dairy processing plant. Currently they are essentially limiting producers to 85% of their production. When the milk comes in the producers are charged the trucking to get it there , not paid for it then the plant pulls the cream essentially out of it to use and dumps the rest. 
Personally I'd be feeding it to pigs or dumping it down the drain before the truck got there. 

[Bandmill Bandit]

Bandmill were you making forage for dairy or beef cows?

Both! We ran just over 80 dairy and 120 moma cows and the off spring from that. Generally had about 70 t o85 in the dairy barn and about 250 in the feedlot for the winter. 

[newoodguy78]

Did you have any problems with DAs in your dairy herd? What was your RHA?

[chevytaHOE5674]

Wrapped and bagged feed presents its own set of issues as well especially for a small time producer. You need to be able to harvest the crop quickly, and get it wrapped/ bagged immediately, which for a 1 or 2 man operation is often impossible. If you have to haul feed any sort of distance you are transporting a lot of water often result in extra transportation cost.The plastic needs to remain intact (few years back we wrapped a row of 100+ bales and every night the coyotes and bears would walk on top of it, within a week there was more tape on the wrap than actual wrap resulting in a nearly total loss). When it comes time to feed you need to be able to use enough feed to keep ahead of spoilage, silage in a 9' bag is often to much exposed feed for a small time producer. And currently at -30° the exposed silage or exposed end of wrapped bales is froze so solid you may as well feed your cattle concrete.

[Southside]

Sadly Europe is miles ahead of us when it comes to forage harvest technology.  Single tractor systems that rake, bale, wrap, and bunch bales at the end of a windrow, right from the factory.  The same unit folds up and travels down the road at 50 MPH in places my dually is a tight squeeze.  One man can cut the field at dawn and have it put up that evening.  

[chevytaHOE5674]

All that equipment is available here if your willing to pay the price for it. 

[farmfromkansas]

My neighborhood has some wrapping going on.  One guy has an Anderson that wraps a whole row of bales, and I considered buying a Vermeer single wrapper, but after I heard a guy a few miles away has one and has a lot of spoilage, decided to forget that.  Problem is the long wrapper requires many bales to be made and wrapped in a short time.  Also you need a silage baler.  My JD 468 is not a silage baler, and plugs when I try to bale something a little too wet. So I just keep my moisture tester handy and try to bale at the right moisture rate.                                                                      This winter the feed is going really well, not much waste, and cows are dong well, down side is we have had no rain since October.  3 small snow storms, most of it blew off the fields.