low impact Logging?

[hardtailjohn]

Southside,
We've got 8 Clydes and one Percheron right now....  most of them pregnant mares... they eat! :new_year:

[Piston]

John,
I haven't heard of that, I just checked the website and may subscribe.  Thanks for the info.

[Kemper]

We are high impact especially in this type of weather. But those land owners sure do like those high impact checks going into their account. We use better management practices, but with big heavy equipment and this type of wet there is only so much you can do.

[PeytonM]

I'm just starting out, I'm dealing with a lot of insurance BS right now, I've had a team of Belgians for 3 years and had some smaller horses I drove before the belgians. I started off just helping cut fire wood for people round me and mainly one woman where I keep my horses in the winter time. I enjoy felling trees and being out in the woods thought I'd look in to the whole horse logging gig.

I would agree that someone with a team of horses can make a mess, heck, anyone who goes in the woods can come out and leave a mess. I personally don't feel you can call any big skidder "low impact" you could go under like what was stated before leaving the forest in better shape than it was before. I see horse's in a class all on their own personally, I need 5 feet roughly, an ATV trail is big enough. When I would cut fire wood, I'd have the land owner mark the trees that could be cut, I'd start on one end and work to the other and very rarely have to cut any brush, My horses trust me and they are quite large so they can push their way through the thickets, I get wacked in the face a few times but its just part of the gig.

I feel there is a spot for horses and there's a spot for the modern tire/ crawlers machines. A land owner with a few acres of woods Horses I feel fit best, or a land owner that really wants their forest to be an investment, people that want pulp, clear cut, don't see it as an investment and just as some extra cash.

Just my personal views. 

[beenthere]

PeytonM
All very interesting.
What have you figured you would need to charge per hour (or per mbf) to log with your horses?

Will you shoot for a goal to make them pay for their keep? or figure a share of their expense as part of you hobby to have a team and go logging?

I can see the desire to own a team and as well, a desire to put them to work so they are not just standing around chewing on hay. Logging with them would be good.

Do you have a sleigh or wagon or some kind of tote to get chainsaws, and other logging equipment into (and out of) the woods as you cut through a stand?

[giant splinter]

Hmmmmm,
I wonder if you could tame a group of beavers to do the felling, I can bring them to you Payton and you wont need to train them in felling but i cant be sure that they will cooperate or be low impact. I do have one here nicknamed "Chewey" and it would be my first choice to see him gone, he prefers aspen and he is ok with the night shift ;D

[enigmaT120]

I watched a guy demonstrate cable yarding with a tractor-powered winch.  He had a skidding cone on the front of the log, and raised the rear of it with an early model of the Logrite Jr. Arch, and pulled it out that way.  It did very little damage to the forest duff.  He has almost no underbrush in that patch of woods, though, and it was pretty flat. 

[saxon0364]

I have logged with horses on and off for many years.  Ive also run a JD 440B or a TJ 225E just as long.   Some jobs are more suited to skidders, some to horses.   Horses, for the most part have less impact on a wood lot,,,,if handled correctly.   An uncaring teamster can skin up just as many trees that are going to be left standing as a bad skidder operator.    But its hard to dispute that horses leave less soil compaction if you dont keep on logging when things get wet.       Ive seen jobs done by some horse logging crews that really put a hurting on the timber stand.    It all comes down to the loggers themselves.    A good cutter that can fall trees accurately,  knows enough to not drop trees on valuable regeneration and considers witch way the tree will be skidded out can make or break the job.  A good teamster that knows how to pick his twitch trails and knows and cares enough to bridge or fill in wet areas is just as important.    Same goes for skidder operators.   Its the man running the machine that counts.   
      That being said Ive seen skidder operators with big wide skidders really struggle in thinning jobs.    For small  jobs, under 100 acres or less, small machines make life a lot easier.     But,,, right now Im doing a clearcut on a hillside harvesting about 200,000 BF or timber.    And I'd love to see a big cat on my landing.    :D

[PeytonM]

I wanted to get in the logging for two reasons,
1) I already have the draft horses, I use them to cut their hay and rake also use them to plow only use tractor to bale hay and if I disk.
2) I love working them and I like the woods so I looked in to working them in the woods. So its just another way I can use the horses and still make some money.

I agree it all is on the logger, using the right tools in the right spot.

Saxon, what kind of horses did you use?

[David-L]

Hey hardtailjohn, Whats a ton of hay go for in Montana. you feeding first cut or second. I make 5000 square bales annually. The 40 to 50 lb type. I am getting 6 bucks out of the barn for first and 7 for second. low impact for me is, a 225 Timberjack, a saw, axe, wedge's and frozen ground and good directional felling , and thinking about the next harvest down the road. Interesting subject.

                                            David l

[Mark K]

I can see both sides of this. I logged with a tractor and log winch for many years. I consider that low impact. Now I own bigger iron. I feel its in the operator. With properly planned skid roads and a 100 ft of cable on my drum I can reach alot of areas with little disturbance. We dont have many horse loggers in our area other than amish. Some skids on my jobs are over a mile skid where horses or farm tractors arent productive enough. The mill I cut for also will not let us pull whole trees, tops and all. Wood cannot be taken out less than 6" for firewood. Pulling tops does alot of damage. It may look cleaner in the woods without them but trees tend to get barked pulling them.

[saxon0364]

Saxon, what kind of horses did you use?

We are using Percherons right now. Best logging horse for my money.  Also have Haflingers although I think they are a little light for serious logging.   I spent quite a bit of time cutting for a guy that had the biggest team of Belgians Ive ever seen work in the woods, they were not cut and a little to hot for the woods if you ask me..    I posted some pics here but that was quite a while back, maybe a year. 

[hardtailjohn]

David_L, grass hay is about $120 a ton here this year...and I only get one cutting. Season's too short.

Most of the logging we get to do here on our ranch is in the winter, so our impact to the soil is usually pretty  low, being that it is frozen. Skidding in the winter is a lot nicer in a few ways... the logs slide easier and stay cleaner, not to mention the minimum soil disturbance, regardless if we're using the horses or our John Deere 350 crawler. 
John

[SwampDonkey]

I'm growing more commercial trees per acre now on my land than was there standing before a harvest in winter 1993. I've planted a lot, but also a lot of natural softwood and hardwood regrowth mixed in. And I have thinned it all out except my cedar regenerated areas, which are 1-3 acre patches. now I'm pruning fir poles for future logs. I'd say the woods are doing every bit as good and better than the old forest. Aside from scarification marks for the plantation, there are no skidder marks on the land at all. My land is also flat and drainage varies from poor (cedar, balm) to well drained (fir,spruce,hardwood). A clearcut always looks like a mess, but with proper tending, instead of turning your back on things, the new forest is as productive or better off than a piece of woods that has areas in the far corners that never get tended. A lot of low impact I have seen is someone cherry picking what they want for the moment , close and easy access and never really tending the whole piece of woods. If someone shows me their road side show case, I like to walk back into it 1/2 mile or more and see the rest of the story. Perception is everything. ;D

[Rick Alger]

What I have found is that there are  only way two ways to make a decent return with horses. The first is to cut very good wood with a short skid. The second is to get  paid hourly for pre-commercial thinning work. A horse can do acre after acre in narrow spacing without skinning a leave tree. Skidders operators can do the same, but it's not economical to run out a cable  just to winch in a single stem, move ahead, winch in another single etc.

[Black_Bear]

I personally don't feel you can call any big skidder "low impact" you could go under like what was stated before leaving the forest in better shape than it was before.

Just to play devil's advocate - for 3.5 years I worked with two 635D, 6-wheel, Tigercat grapples. Dual rear wheels with lags over the wheels - type it into Google for a picture. They are big machines. These machines float very nicely, and relative to a typical 4-wheel grapple our close out work was cut in half due to significantly less rutting. The weight displacement is spread throughout those big lags and they essentially seem to float. You get them in a deep snowpack and the following summer the ground in the cut is mostly undisturbed. Unlike 4-wheel skidders that tend to churn through the snow until you hit hard ground, these skidders pack the snow and ride on top, creating solid trail protection with little residual soil compaction. Excellent for cutting wet ground in the winter.

These skidders are usually placed in clearcuts, or some type of final removal, so the landscape changes dramatically and it is probably not considered low impact logging. But these big skidders, with talented operators, can leave a low impact result on the forest floor. They're expensive, you better be moving some wood. 

As mentioned a couple times in this post, harvesting systems work more efficiently when the proper equipment is used, and I don't have a problem with horse logging. I like to stop and occasionally watch some of the horse loggers around here. They all seem to be so laid back. I guess not having a $5000 fuel bill or no hefty loan payments will do that to a guy. One thing I learned a long time ago, you want to be out of the trail when that horse gets sent to the landing. 

[PeytonM]

I'm doing everything by the hour, and if someone cries about it then I cut the hour wage back some and take some wood off it. I look for people with only a few acres of woods where it isn't really worth a large set up to come out. I also like working some steep bluffs for the most part I've never really had too much up hill. I cut some fire wood out of my grandpas land for a cousin of mine and that was some steep stuff, thought his little John Deere tractor was gonna crawl up the hill in snow... not the case... mind you. its about 7 inches at the time. its 35hp diesel I'd say dont know the model.

[SwampDonkey]

Up here it would be almost impossible to cut wood by an hourly rate. What will work is piece meal. Both by the volume and by the acre. By the hour would be seen as a lot of time spent playing as the wood itself is generally not high value up here. Most people want to make a buck to come ahead with the wood harvested. On a building lot and clearing land is by the hour because there is more involved. I've seen a lot of time spent there to padding hours. After awhile you find yourself out of work because no one can afford you or your bill gets unpaid.

[Rick Alger]

Yeah, I didn't mean to imply I get a lot of hourly work. I don't. But lately I have had a few of these opportunities.

For a young guy starting out, aiming for  hourly work  has to be the way to go. With today's prices, trying to make a go of any stumpage job that involves moving low grade wood is almost impossible with horses.

If I was starting out today, I would try to link up with "greeny" foresters and get indirectly written into the forest management plans of the newer class of landowners.

[SwampDonkey]

We don't see high society much spending money that way. Most will hold onto it like a vise. I know of one family who hasn't worked for 2 generations because their grandfather made money in the lumber business. These folks haven't cut a stick of wood in decades. They own woodland to. They don't need the money and not about to go behind having wood harvested to make a job for someone. They live like regular folks and very thrifty. Now if some maintenance or yard work needs done, they will pay there way without a complaint. And pay well to.

[Rick Alger]

Yup, Plenty of those kind around here too.

But the local  timber companies are divesting some of their holdings, and some of the new owners want to do "the right thing". It's with these folks I think that there may be a future for horse loggers and other low impact guys. To some of them timber is not merely a commodity. It's part of an ecosystem they intend to "protect." And the "protection" most of  them talk about is non-industrial forestry interventions - removing blowdowns, thinning from below, removing two or three wolf trees per acre for firewood etc. It's not really logging, but it may evolve into something popular enough to keep the low impact diehards going.

It's more of a feel good thing than a production thing. It can also be a way to get some very good forestry accomplished. A friend of mine is working on doing this on a large scale in Vermont.

So I hold out hope for low impact logging, but  probably not in my lifetime in this area.

[hardtailjohn]

This month's issue of the Draft Horse Journal has a really good article on Carl Russell and his horse logging. Well worth the read!
John

[SwampDonkey]

There is still a few horse loggers around here, but they are cutting a lot more than a scattered tree here and there. They are at a minimum thinning the stands, and a good many are just high grading and use the term 'select cut'. My response is always, 'yup, that's what is'. ;)

Atlantic Forestry magazine has articles once in a while on horse loggers. The latest NS woodlot owners of the year recipients in the last issue was a horse logger and his neighbor with a team of oxen. Folks that cut very small volumes on their own land. One fellow said he does about 12 acres of selection a year on 128 acre woodlot. That don't pay many bills. ;) But for me that situation works, because he can do it at his own pace on his own time and no big over head. It's certainly not a living. When you have to hire it, it changes the water on the beans.

[PeytonM]

all it takes though is a 15 acre stand of high grade lumber and the land owner wants the right thing. I was told logging with horses is like gold prospecting. some times you find a spot and there's a lot of money there and the next time there isn't much of anything for wood.

[SwampDonkey]

We don't get much of that up here, so it would be more like looking for platinum. There are lots of stands of small wood that would be nice in the future if properly managed but very few lots with any volume of veneer. The last 30 years have cut most any woodlot that was going to be cut around here. Just drive the roads and show me any big timber left. The single biggest comment I get from someone driving through NB is the wood looks pretty small. Yes, the mature timber is mostly all cut. People up here cut wood to pay the bills and to keep from freezing to death, not to make pretty. Now that most have been cut, they are going back and cutting the 30-40 year old stuff. None of which is big enough for good money, maybe 8"-9" and that is a big one and it will be a fir or a popple. Not high value trees. A neighboring farmer here is clearcutting what he has to pay the bills. His brother did the same, but the farm bills out weighed the wood money. Same thing will happen to him I suspect.