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Wondering if I’ve been ripped off

Started by Stockpyler, February 12, 2023, 09:57:07 AM

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moodnacreek

Land owners never do there homework in my opinion. Of all the ones I have advised only one listened and it saved his butt.  If you, the land owner don't have a trusted friend in the logging business you need to do some leg work. Find other land owners who are or recently logged there land and find out what happened and who they [more than one] say is honest.

tacks Y

I have a skidder, I AM NOT A LOGGER. With that said a log truck around here (tri-axle) carries 3k to 3.5K on it a rough average. So any idea of # of trucks?

YellowHammer

I got the same lesson you did, 35 years ago, my very first experience with selling "timber" off one of my building properties.  7 semi loads of logs left my property, I was supposed to get 50% from the mill, and all I got was $70 on a check and they told me to be "happy I got what I did."  I was young, had no documentation other than a truck count, no background, no experience, nothing.  I just trusted the logger.  He was a nice guy, but a crook and I was the patsy.

My complained to my buddy over a couple of cold beers, he had some land, he called up the same logger, got a few acres of his land harvested, same thing, except - he was a cop.   ;D Busted...

I never got my money back but he did  :D :D - however I did get a good laugh when he told me they took the logger to city hall on an arrest warrant and the detectives showed up at the sawmill.

YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

SwingOak

I'll be looking to do some logging on my land in the UP, the idea is mostly to open up some 3-4 acre clearcuts for habitat improvement for grouse etc. so this thread definitely caught my eye. 

My worst fear is timber theft, and paid a bucket of money to have it surveyed last year when some flagging tape showed up on the back corner. It turned out to be my neighbor marking a big soupy spot in my road (I gave them permission to maintain and use an old logging road for cross country skiing that crosses my land). 

I started marking the boundary trees last fall, and have about 1/4 mile left to paint. It's waiting until spring because there's about 3 feet of snow on the ground right now. 

I'll be calling the county conservation district for starters, from what I've heard they have a good forestry assistance program. 

BargeMonkey

 Had a local guy want me to go walk a relatives job, this one road has all been cut into "bacon strips", 10-15 acre pieces. In the back was 2ld of nice logs and some firewood, nothing great but a quick easy job. I said X amount in cash, I will pay you now and be a year or so. Nope, worth more, worth more. They met some logger in a bar in Lake George, guy pulled in on a Monday, was gone Wednesday, destroyed the yard, drove thru the septic tank and stole both game cameras they had set up. Guy calls me in a panic of what to do, I said lose my phone # and find someone else to buy firewood from. I see this happen ALL the time. Friend of mines father got scammed out of 10-15k, they left a mess, the kid just bought that 440 to clean up all the firewood they left because I gave him a price of 5k to fix the mess and grade the ruts out 😆. 

moodnacreek

Quote from: BargeMonkey on February 13, 2023, 01:40:06 PM
Had a local guy want me to go walk a relatives job, this one road has all been cut into "bacon strips", 10-15 acre pieces. In the back was 2ld of nice logs and some firewood, nothing great but a quick easy job. I said X amount in cash, I will pay you now and be a year or so. Nope, worth more, worth more. They met some logger in a bar in Lake George, guy pulled in on a Monday, was gone Wednesday, destroyed the yard, drove thru the septic tank and stole both game cameras they had set up. Guy calls me in a panic of what to do, I said lose my phone # and find someone else to buy firewood from. I see this happen ALL the time. Friend of mines father got scammed out of 10-15k, they left a mess, the kid just bought that 440 to clean up all the firewood they left because I gave him a price of 5k to fix the mess and grade the ruts out 😆.
Somebody me t 'gin mill logger' , didn't think there where any left.

Loony661

Quote from: Stockpyler on February 12, 2023, 06:36:55 PM
My main concern is the number of board feet compared to the stump dimensions and distance to the fallen top seems very different from the letter I got. This is what I'm trying to figure out. Just looking at the Doyle scale.
Any updates from this? Maybe it's a regional thing, but we use Scribner scale here..
I took a couple pictures today while I was logging to show what I was trying to explain in my last post:

This first pic gives a good example of "stump jump". Topped where it lays, it would give you false indication that the log was much longer..
 

Same tree from above, but notice the trunk taper/root flare.. just looking at the stump would give an exaggerated estimate of the board footage in the butt log..
  
Timberjack 230A
TreeMonkey 661c, MMWS 462c, MS 460 Magnum, MS 462, Homelite Super XL 925

chet

I'm not sure most people here can appreciate how steep some of that area of Minnesota can be in places.
I am a true TREE HUGGER, if I didnt I would fall out!  chet the RETIRED arborist

Otis1

Driftless area in SW Wisconsin/ SE Minnesota + the bluffs around the Mississippi make for some steep terrain! Chet isn't wrong. 

so il logger

Quote from: Stockpyler on February 12, 2023, 09:57:07 AM
 
Doing the math using the several hundred logs reported in the letter (not broken down by species), each log yielded an average of 50 bf. And less than $.80 bf over the entire harvest, according to the letter.
Sounds like you got a print out of the log scale, as in each log not each tree. $.80 meaning $0.80 cents per board foot? Some pictures of the stumps would help everyone to know species but say if they cut 50 smallish walnut and 50 pallet grade trees the pallet grade stuff will drive the bdft price way down if looking at an across the board sheet. They should have broke it down by species to clarify stuff. I don't know how that mill operates but any grade lumber mill I have dealt with separates inventory by species. Some smaller operations sell grade and veneer logs rather than saw them, could be what's going on. Regardless there is a paper trail. $.80 per ft standing sounds like it wasn't much pallet or blocking wood involved

Stockpyler

No update yet. Getting the report from a certified forester tomorrow. I never recieved any printouts of any kind except for a generic letter that only speciated walnut bdft XXXX and mixed oak,hickory, pallet bdft xxxxx. not ready to disclose numbers until I get the report. If the bdft numbers are close, I paid for peace of mind and saved myself from accusing anyone of theft. 

Interestingly enough, I just found out through a friend that this same sawmill bid a job for a friend of a his, and told him his pay from the harvest would be 8k. This friend of a friend called another logger and when the job was done his pay was 40k. The kicker is that the logs were then sold to the same mill that bid it for 8k. Weird :-\

B.C.C. Lapp

Were you ripped off?   Well, that's easy to know.  Did the buyer do what the contract stated they would do?    If they took more timber than the contract aloud for then yes they stole from you.   If they did what the contract required and now your realizing your not happy with what you received in payment then no you were not robbed.  You just made a bad business deal.  

Happens here every day.   People sell their timber and sign a contract then somebody tells them they should have got paid more and suddenly the logger or mill is the bad guy.  
Nope, if you made a bad deal and signed a contract that is on you.   On the mills part it's just business.

I tell people, if you are interested in selling your timber, hire a consulting forester to mark the timber for sale, based on your ideas and goals for the future of your timber and the consultants recommendations.

Then get at least three bids.  Five or six bids aint to many at all.   Then choose the mill or logging company that gives you the best price and the best reputation.   The consultant keeps an eye on the cut and everybody walks away happy.   
Listen, or your tongue will make you deaf.

chevytaHOE5674

Would you sell your grandmas jewelry without getting an appraisal by an expert or two first? No

Why sell your timber without an expert appraisal first also?

Walnut Beast

The last two statements sum it up!! No different than if I sold my loader for 50k to a guy and he turned around advertised and sold it for 100k and I seen it. The reaction is I got ripped off. The question is did you really make a bad decision and are crying uncle now. 

Nemologger

If the logger honored the contract just sounds like sour grapes to me.
Clean and Sober

pamtnman

Quote from: Stockpyler on February 12, 2023, 09:57:07 AM
Boy, I sure wish I'd found this forum before my current situation.
 
I hired a local mill to harvest my timber he hired a contract logger. I'm in the Midwest. I was given a "standard"contract with a minimum amount that is based on grade and yield. Down payment was made. I had a couple of conversations with the mill as the job went on about trucks leaving at night.
 
When the work was done I was given only a check. I asked for some information about what was cut, and four days later I was given a generic letter stating total number of logs and total board feet.

Almost half of the stumps were walnut.
 
Doing the math using the several hundred logs reported in the letter (not broken down by species), each log yielded an average of 50 bf. And less than $.80 bf over the entire harvest, according to the letter.

No stump that we saw (over 150 so far) was less than 16" and many were significantly bigger.

I am the landowner and had no idea that there were services available on the front end to help. Am I crazy to think the numbers are far off? Should I be concerned? Is there any recourse? Thanks in advance for your reply!
Stumps can be very useful in estimating the board feet in a tree. Use an online board foot calculator for logs and it will give you some idea. When I cruise timber I use a logger's tape at 4.5 feet high around the trunk to get a sense of diameter and likely board foot yield. While it is true that some trees have big butt flare, that is usually seen with oaks and maples. And you can usually tell that the butt was flared by the long outside ridges going into the soil. Black walnut is bringing several bucks a board foot in most places, and if 75 stumps were black walnut averaging 100 board feet each, you should have been paid going rate for 7500 board feet, which would be anywhere from $7500 to $15000 to more. I occasionally buy and sell standing walnut, and this is a topic I am familiar with. One caveat: If this is fenceline wood, then the logs are subject to a ton of deductions for all the metal that has to be removed. 

OH logger

I know sometimes I sell logs to a mill and they have a special order for that type and make big bucks on the logs I sold em for the going rate. Am I bitter about that? No way. They paid a market value I sold em and everyone's happy. I want them To make money so they stay in the bisiness and continue to buy from me. Profit is NOT a bad word
john

barbender

I'd think it would take someone who is very familiar with the type of timber that was cut to make an accurate estimate of volume from stumps. 
Too many irons in the fire

stavebuyer

The OP stated that the deal included a signed contract with a deposit and terms that the final sale total was to be determined based on grade and yield of the logs. He is most certainly entitled to see a detailed accounting of how the total on the final settlement check was derived and that accounting should have been provided along with the settlement check even if some of the abbreviations might have needed further explanation to someone not familiar with log scaling and grading.

I think the OP has every reason to question what has transpired. In the mills defense $.78 stumpage paid for a 50 bd/ft log average timber sale that included other species along with the Walnut and cut during last year's market collapse could be perfectly reasonable. Last summer typical Walnut sawlogs of that size would have been lucky to average $1.50 delivered in my neighborhood. Throw a few bottomland gems like Pin Oak, Sycamore, and Hackberry in the mix and $.78 could have been a jaw-dropping average. Without scale tickets nobody knows and the mill in question is definitely deficient for not proving them.

I actually quit buying Walnut logs at my log yard the last time the market was strong as it wasn't worth the headache of unrealistic expectations created by Walnut Fever. Coffee shop fairy tales about the distant cousin of some friend of a friend who once sold his yard tree for $30K.


pamtnman

Quote from: stavebuyer on March 10, 2023, 04:35:06 AM
The OP stated that the deal included a signed contract with a deposit and terms that the final sale total was to be determined based on grade and yield of the logs. He is most certainly entitled to see a detailed accounting of how the total on the final settlement check was derived and that accounting should have been provided along with the settlement check even if some of the abbreviations might have needed further explanation to someone not familiar with log scaling and grading.

I think the OP has every reason to question what has transpired. In the mills defense $.78 stumpage paid for a 50 bd/ft log average timber sale that included other species along with the Walnut and cut during last year's market collapse could be perfectly reasonable. Last summer typical Walnut sawlogs of that size would have been lucky to average $1.50 delivered in my neighborhood. Throw a few bottomland gems like Pin Oak, Sycamore, and Hackberry in the mix and $.78 could have been a jaw-dropping average. Without scale tickets nobody knows and the mill in question is definitely deficient for not proving them.

I actually quit buying Walnut logs at my log yard the last time the market was strong as it wasn't worth the headache of unrealistic expectations created by Walnut Fever. Coffee shop fairy tales about the distant cousin of some friend of a friend who once sold his yard tree for $30K.
I hear ya on the last sentence, about the big bucks walnut yard tree. I have myself physically beheld such a tree here (central PA) at a large commercial sawmill. No sooner did it come out of the ground than its prospective slabs were sold to a buyer in Ohio for a new office building. 

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