NH Govenor wants to get rid of licensing of Foresters

[peakbagger]

The second most forested state, NH may end its forester licensing program – New Hampshire Bulletin

IMO a boneheaded idea. As it is many landowners learn the hard way that the logger they hire may not be looking at their best interests. 

[B.C.C. Lapp]

Not a good idea.   There are timber buyers, then there are foresters.  The two ain't the same thing.    

[Ron Scott]

Bad idea! Anyone will be able to be called a forester without any accountability.

[Ron Wenrich]

We have never had licensing of foresters in PA.  The state does maintain a list of professional foresters.  They have to have a BS in Forestry from an accredited university.  They can work as consultants, or work for mills or loggers.  Some loggers also have the degree.  The state cannot make any recommendations on which forester to use, or even if they have to use a forester.

However, a license doesn't mean you'll get quality work.  I've seen stands totally gutted by guys with degrees, and some good work done by guys without the degree.  Just because you have a license to drive doesn't make you a good driver.

Some landowners care about their forest health, and others only care about the cash they can mine out of their forest.  Those that care should take the added step to do due diligence to find a forester that will carry out their desires. 

After reading the article, I can't see where NH forces anyone to use a forester.  There really isn't any teeth in the licensing since there are other avenues to get the work done.  A timber buyer can come in, mark the wood, and sell it or buy it for a mill.  As long as he doesn't project himself to be a forester, there is no problem.

[Ron Scott]

A "professional forester" is required to have a minimum of a 4-year degree from an accredited forestry school to practice the science of forestry. Over a long haul, a number of States now require licensing or registration of those selling their services as a "professional forester". 

Certain ethics are also required to be followed by those meeting the credentials of a "professional forester" under a state licensing or registration program as well as being certified by the Society of American Foresters.

[Mountaynman]

Seems to me that you have to file an intent to cut paperwork with the town up there with estimated volumes for all products but maybe it is somewhere else in new england just remember hearing about it from fellas that work up that way. 

[mudfarmer]

There are no legal standards governing foresters in New York State

^ From NYS DEC

It's... not great

The good news is that in order to be in the tax reduction programs you have to have an accredited forester make the plan. Same for NRCS and some other things. Basically like Ron said it is in PA.

There is still a guy that is mad at me because he was the "Forester" when my land was cut before we bought it and anyone that asks I tell them the truth about the job that was done. I try not to be mean or emotional about it, just the truth. It seems like there are plenty of accredited foresters that do just as bad of a job.

The problem mostly seems to be loggers that can approach landowners and say they have a forester they work with. Generally not accredited, just someone with paint, working on behalf of the logger not the landowner.

[Texas Ranger]

Seems like politicians need to be licensed, see if they have ever read the constitution and laws of the state.

[barbender]

 When the logger and forester are working together, the forester is usually basically serving as a procurement forester for the logger. I've worked with a few guys that are in an arrangement like this, they are straight shooters and do good work. But just be mindful that in that arrangement the forester is probably looking out for the logger's interests before yours.

[Ron Wenrich]

Just to set the record straight, I have a BS in Forest Science from Penn State, an accredited university.  I have had a license in MD, been a member of the Assn of Consulting Foresters, the SAF, and on the Board of Directors of the PA Forestry Assn.  The only place that ever really mattered was when I was an expert witness in a couple of trespass cases.  On 2 of those cases, I was against other consultants with better credentials then what I had.  And I beat them because of their incompetence. 

I dropped all the associations because there was no advantage to have them.  It was only a requirement on a few jobs as a consultant.  One was to write a mgmt plan for a harvest that involved a salvage job of a stand that was completely blown down by a storm.  The person to approve my plan was the twp engineer.  He merely was a rubber stamp, since he couldn't challenge it. 

Ethics are a different matter.  I found some of my colleagues had questionable practices.  I knew of one consultant that would mark a sale and feed it to a mill.  They told the landowner they were the top bidder.  Another consultant marked timber, sold it, then came back and bought the veneer from the logger.  I found that to be a conflict of interest - they make money on both ends.  I've seen diameter limit sales in stands that didn't warrant it. 

Where does the license protect the landowner?  There is no requirement for them to get someone licensed to oversee the mgmt, or to buy or sell timber.  I think its one of the failings of the industry.  Good loggers get lumped in with bad loggers.  Good foresters get lumped in with bad foresters.  The landowner is unsuspecting, and when the job is done, it takes decades for the forest to recover. 

[Old Greenhorn]

Ron, I have been thinking about this a long time, and every time it comes up, I think on it some more. I am NOT a forester and have no credentials, in fact I have been called a forester by some and I am VERY quick to correct them. I do some property consulting for small landowners, the ones a forester would not spend time on, like 5 to sometimes 50 acres on (usually) poorly maintained land. Sometimes  depending on the goals of the landowner I will recommend considering a forestry management plan written by a good forester as well as looking into our states(NY) tax incentives and see how that balances out for them after talking to their accountant, etc. Before I give any names for foresters, I check those names out with folks I know in the business to see what their rep's are like. When I give those names to a landowner I also give him/her some questions to ask the forester up front.

 Every field has some bad actors that affect the entire class of folks in that group. What I realized, and maybe you can correct me if I have this wrong, is that groups like lawyers and doctors have oversight by some sort of professional review board of peers. So if you think a Doc or a lawyer is a slob or quack, you can present it before that board and it will be reviewed by peers, bound by some kind of code of ethics. I do not believe there is such a process in Forestry, is there? When somebody knows they aren't being watched or can't be held accountable by those who know what's right, they they have no fear.

 There was a saying that my Pop would use and it went along the lines of "An honest Man will do the right thing even when nobody is watching", Sadly, this is not the case everywhere.

[Ron Scott]

Peer review is a strong part of the rules and regulations overseeing a licensed, registered, or certified forester. A forester can be brought before the specific governing board of their peers for violating best management practices or ethics violations.

[Ron Wenrich]

I know that some professions enjoy protection of competition by limiting practices to certain licensed individuals as indicated by state law.  Medicine is the one that comes to mind.  In our state, school teachers must be certified by the state if they teach in public schools.  Private schools don't require certification.  A barber needs to have a license to cut hair, but a logger doesn't need one to cut timber.

Which brings me to my point.  What does the license bring to the forester?  There only thing that he can do is legally sign his name with an RPF or LPF and a number behind his name.  Anyone can write a mgmt plan, or carry out a timber sale, or even put an appraisal on timber.  If the peer review would take someone's license away, would that mean he couldn't do business in the state?  Probably not.  I did run into a few local ordinances that required a BS forester to write mgmt plans, and plans were needed to harvest timber.  That never caught on because no one was qualified to review them.

Greenhorn - are there any laws in NY that says you can't write a mgmt plan or carry out a timber sale?  It sounds like you probably could.  You're not misrepresenting yourself and not doing anything illegal. 

I'm one of those guys that believe in data driven forest mgmt practices.  I haven't found too many that do that, and wonder if very many even know how to do it.  The money is in marking timber and selling it.  It would really be nice if landowners would manage their timber assets with the same mindset as managing their other assets. 

[PoginyHill]

Last year, Vermont enacted a license requirement for all contractors (carpenters, excavation, landscapers...). The intent of the lawmakers was to "do something" regarding contractors taking deposits and doing no work or insufficient work. I don't think a license requirement will eliminate any bad actors. I've always thought that one's work record (personal interviews, references, etc...) work much better than someone holding a license.
I suppose there might be some instances of a license somehow avoiding bad behavior, but it won't stop shoddy work and it comes at a cost to everyone involved.

I've never understood why barbers need a license to cut someone's hair....

[Old Greenhorn]

Greenhorn - are there any laws in NY that says you can't write a mgmt plan or carry out a timber sale?  It sounds like you probably could.  You're not misrepresenting yourself and not doing anything illegal.  .......................

I am pretty sure you need to have a credentialed forester do it in NYS, but I can check on that. It's been a year since I read the rules. Right now I am 15 hours deep in updating my website and I want to get that done, so maybe later I can find the rules again.
 Even if I could write a plan, I wouldn't. There is too much at stake and to me, it is clear mis-representation of one's self. What I do is explain basics to small landowners like explaining and SHOWING them the actual condition of their trees as well as offering them alternatives toward caring for their land and trees. I steer them toward better resources than I and offer to help them get through that initial process. Mostly I try to expose them to thoughts that have have seemed 'bad' to them (like clear cutting or even selective harvesting or TSI cutting work) and explain what this does for the good of their trees so they understand.
 I'll try to look up the facts after I get through this webpage nightmare. ;D ;D

[mudfarmer]

There is nothing stopping OGH or anyone else in NY from writing management plans or conducting timber sales as a Forester regardless of their education, accreditation, ethics, or anything else.

I think this is a good page from the DEC's site, more landowners should stumble on it: Find a Cooperating Forester - NYS Dept. of Environmental Conservation

Here's one from the NYC watershed group or whatever they are: https://www.nycwatershed.org/wp-content/uploads/pdfs/choosing_a_forester.pdf

You do need to have an accredited forester write your management plan to be a part of the Tree Farm program, enroll in 480 tax reduction programs, receive NRCS funding, and probably some other things, but not to just write a management plan or sell timber.

[mudfarmer]

I might be wrong on the Tree Farm program, can't find the relevant language but am not going to dig any further right now

[Old Greenhorn]

From the research I just did I believe mudfarmer has it all correct. But since I mostly advise landowners that qualify to look into the tax credits they would need a pro to write their plan anyway. I also routinely advise anyone thinking of doing any kind of sale to hire an independent forester who will work for their interests and the guys around here that are independent typically have the degree and credentials.
I never represent myself as something I am not and I couldn't sleep with that.

On the other hand.... in a world where I had over 4 decades of hands on experience I had no problem going up against those who had degrees and credentials coming out of their ears but didn't know diddly about making things happen in a safe, fast, and productive manner. But I always made it clear that I was not an Engineer by Degree. I did however make a few PE's look silly in my career.

 Clothes don't make the man.

[Ron Scott]

The Second Most Forested State, NH May End Its Forester Licensing Program
New Hampshire Bulletin, March 2, 2023
When David Falkenham heard the state's forester license is on the chopping block as part of budget talks in Concord, two words came to mind: "complete disaster." What followed were thoughts about the timber harvest checks, ranging from $5,000 to $100,000, that he personally delivers to landowners as a forester licensed by the state of New Hampshire.

READ MORE

The E-Forester

[customsawyer]

I wonder if NH requires a license to catch a fish? Pretty confident which way I would place that bet.

[Peter Drouin]

I have a bunch of loggers tell me, as long as you pay the state, there $$ you never see one. [State forester], Only if mud is in the road from the landing. Compliant from someone. Never see one in the woods.
It's all about $$$. On the private side, You have the good, bad and ugly.
With a license that way, maybe they can tell the landowner what they have for BF of whatever they have.

[SwampDonkey]

Never joined the provincial association because there is no peer review process. Also, only required if your working for a mill and managing crown lands. You can't cruise timber on crown land without being registered with either a forester or forest technician association. Never understood that because I've seen some poor cruises, which were verified by landowners who bought small parcels of crown land from the government. Always some kind of cruise before a sale. ;) Many are road side cruises. :D I don't know if much land gets cruised on crown land now. Most all is LIDAR and other technology these days. Even using it for pre-assessed thinning surveys for clearing saw crews.  Cruising these days is pretty much limited to permanent sample plots where actual measuring is done over decades. We are talking 10 m radius plots, not prism. Possibly a mill buying up a private woodlot will cruise it, but even that is unlikely. Be just a walk through these days eye balling it.

[Claybraker]

Many are road side cruises. :D I

Which is more accurate a road side or windshield?
Back to the topic licensing massage parlors hasn't stopped them from being fronts for prostitution/sex trafficking here. Maybe a middle ground between keeping licensing and tossing it out completely. Does NH need to maintain a state specific test?

[Don P]

Barbers, massage parlors AND professional wrestlers are all administered by the same agency that licenses me. It is the low bar, but at least I know they have been exposed to the material and will hold for a full three count.

[RPF2509]

Here in CA we have a licensing system for forester and loggers.  Lose your license and you're out of business.  There is the Deptartment of FOrestry and Fire protection as well as a Board of Forestry that oversees the licenscing process as well as enforcement.  The license process for foresters is robust a degree and 3 years experience or 7 years experience under the supervision of a licensed forester, plus passing the exam.  Not for the faint of heart it is an all day affair answering 7 essay questions in 8 hours.   I wrote 42 pages to pass mine.  Pass rate has consistently stayed about 50% through the years.  I've had mine for 25 years and in that time only 600 more have passed.  We are hitting a retirement age cliff soon as half the RPF are over 50 now.  To cut a tree in CA you need a timber harvest plan which only an RPF can sign.  There are various short forms for small landowners but any substantial harvest needs the THP which is open to public comment.  Over regulated yes - but there are very few bad actors and word gets around quickly in the agencies and soon bad actors get their comeuppance.