Watcha' sellin' ? (And how are you selling it?)

[Old Greenhorn]

I've been thinking about starting this thread for a while now. Lots of members here make stuff for sale, everything from carvings and turnings to benches, tables, and large furniture, even woodsheds. For myself I need that income to pay bills, buy tools and materials, and keep living in a meaningful way. For others it's either the same, or for some extra cash, or a diversion, self supporting hobby, or some other reason.
 I thought a collective discussion thread where we can share how we sell our products and/or how we decide what to  make for sale, would be both interesting and helpful for many of us. Quite a few of us have shared some of these thoughts in many other varied threads around these forums, but having one just for sellers might prove interesting.
 I have recently (this summer) begun selling at a few shows and found there are a lot of things to be done to present a good image that generates a sale. There are also a lot of considerations to selecting the 'right fit' shows for any individual. Some of our members do high end juried shows and some sell at flea markets, community events, and craft shows. Some sell only by word of mouth or other local network.
 When I started the "Watcha makin'?" thread just over a year ago, I had no specific question or story to kick it off with. This one is the same. I just wanted to open the door to a conversation and have it center on everyone's work, not mine. I'm just getting started trying to figure this out. So think of this as a "what works for you?" thread as it applies to selling your wares.

 All I have to start off with is a photo of my little booth at the show this past weekend before the rain started.



 

 I turn the floor over to y'all. Watcha sellin', and how are you sellin' it?

Tom

[aigheadish]

I like the thread Tom, let's hope others contribute too!

The photo you've got reminded me of a comment you made that I meant to reply to. You said no one looks up to see your signs in the booth. I'm typically pretty observant and we go to a fair amount of flea market type places with the canopies like you have. Every time I'm in one I'm kind of forced to look down while I duck under the edges or crossbeams within. I'm kind of tall so that may be part of it but I know I usually don't look up much in one of them, other than to see if I'm walking into it, and crashing my head parts into the roof. 

[Old Greenhorn]

Yes, I am about 6' (and shrinking) and I do the same thing. So I am thinking I will mill up some 1x2"x11' or so and clamp them between the front and back canopy legs at around or just below eye level. Maybe one across the back, depending on the show and setup. Then I can staple my information signs to those and have them in view. Those bars would also help keep the side walls from blowing in during nasty weather like last weekend. I only put sides on for rain, otherwise I like having things wide open and in full view.
 I try to learn and/or improve something every show.

[WV Sawmiller]

Tom,

 A timely post since I just lost my most dependable advertising source yesterday and need to replace it with something new.

 I mostly sell sawing services and go saw peoples logs into lumber at their site with maybe 10-15 % of my customers bringing a log or two here for me to saw but mostly I go to them. My best advertising source was a local area free classified paper called The Ol Mountain Trader. People called in or e-mailed their ads for what they had or wanted free of charge and vendors like me posted paid service ads and such. I had a small ad in the Services Section that cost me $10/month. The paper was sold at convenience stores, grocery stores, WalMart, etc. for $1 each and most important it was right in the middle of my target area to travel and saw.

  I make a few primitive live edge mortise and tenon style benches, a few bluebird houses/nesting boxes, crates, tomato stakes, raised bed planters and my own composting toilet. I make the toilets and planters mostly on demand and occasionally take the small items and benches to local flea markets or special seasonal trade shows. Mostly at the shows I give out business cards and pick up some future sawing jobs.

  I also saw and sell a little poplar or spruce lumber from trees on my property and sell a few live edge air dried slabs to local woodworkers.

 I leave business cards on the counters and half page flyers on bulletin boards at local stores. I have a website but people tend not to read the location details and I still get calls from people outside my target sawing area.


 

  The photos are my wife's work and I take a few of them along and sell for her when I can.

 I am a dinosaur and do not do Facebook and have not used local newspaper classified ads very often but I may have to do that more often now to replace my lost trader paper.

[thecfarm]

I have not sold any wood products.
But use to have a greenhouse and veggie business. Wife did some craft shows. I tagged along for a few.
Most important thing we found is to be out front where customers can see you!!
We had more than one vendor, come up to us and say, I hear you have a hot spot.
I would not bother to tell them why. We are not in the back reading a book or on our phones.
We are in the front, saying at least hi, to people or making eye contact. that's what makes the customer feel like stopping and looking.
I have walked around and see what other vendors do.
If my wife and me was talking to each other when a customer would come by, we would stop and talk to them!! Or setting up, stop and talk to the customer!!
Wife sold soap at one show. She was right outfront having people smell the bar of soap. It worked. She sold a lot of soap. Then another person would stop because they would hear the customer say something about the soap. Then I would grab that customer and start to talk. And it would kinda snowball from there, we would have a crowd around our booth.
Be on your feet when a customer comes by!!!!

[aigheadish]

Excellent points cfarm! The amount of flea markets I go to where the booth owners are just sitting in back on their phones is amazing, especially when a simple "Hello! Let me know if you have any questions about anything." is so easy. 

[Old Greenhorn]

I think that's called 'salesmanship' Ray. They don't teach it in schools anymore. Back in the 80's when I did tools sales they hired a consultant to work with us in the booth at shows to show us how to engage customers. I really didn't need the help, but the young assistant I had did. We worked on a lot of small details, choosing the right words, getting to the point quick, figuring out what the customer was looking for and then tailoring our words to match their needs. After a while it becomes automatic. If you don't talk to them, you wasted the encounter you paid for by having the booth. I confess, I sit in the chair very little, but if/when it gets really slow I will sit for a bit and maybe eat something. I rarely get a full lunch in me and have to eat it on the drive home. Often I stand out in the aisle away from the booth, wait till somebody wanders by and stops to look in, then I come up from behind them and say "If there is anything that catches your eye I'd be happy to pull it out so you can look it over." The majority say "no thank you, but your work is beautiful!" or something like that and I now have them in a conversation and can find out what would really interest them. This often comes around to doing a custom build and then they ask me for a card so they can call me. Even if it doesn't wind up with anything I might at least learn what people are looking for so I can make one for the booth. I am looking for ideas from them. 
 It's important to not seem to be aggressive, just friendly. I too try to walk the show before it gets rolling, meet a few other interesting vendors, talk about that particular show, or the stuff they make, and later during the show I will refer people to them when it fits. That wood turner I met had a lady ask him about making something for her, and he told her it wasn't his thing, but he sent her right over to me and we talked and I answered her questions for a while. That may turn into a commission job at some point. 
 But it all comes down to talking to folks. You get about 15 seconds to engage them and if you let that slide by, you've lost a future client. My booth is cluttered so I have to get folks INSIDE to look around, otherwise they stand in the aisle and peer in and they miss a lot of stuff. Some humor helps too. I had some fun with those beer caddies. Every once in a while a guy would ask me if those beer cans went with the caddy. I would say "I'll tell you what, if you buy one, and you can lift the thing up with the cans in it, and you STILL want the cans, you can have those for no extra charge." They would look at me perplexed and I would invite them to 'try to lift it'. When they did they would laugh as they realized the cans were empty. I just say "Yup, that's some REALLY light beer there". I didn't sell any of those, but we had fun with it and it always got a laugh and sometimes attracted a few more folks in to see what was going on.
 Also in my case I have to teach folks about what they are looking at, explain the woods in them and how they are made. Nobody reads signs, I am learning. So many folks asked if I do custom work while standing next to a sign that says "I prefer to do custom items to fit your exact requirements".
 Good Gosh, if I just 'sat there' it would be a long day with very little gained. The show a few weeks back I chatted with the gals in the next booth just to pass the time (they sold aroma therapy stuff, not my thing) and they asked questions about my stuff off and on when things got slow. I wound up selling them a nice sewing table and getting a commission job for a custom Live edge shelf.
 If you are there, you should be present and make good use of the time.

[Tom K]

I think I fall more into the "self supporting hobby" group. I started working in my dads shop when I was around 10. By the time I was a teenager I was making things for my grandma to give as holiday gifts. I have seemed to always pick up a little paying work here & there to help buy new tools all the way through my 20's. From my 30's through now how many paying jobs I do depends totally on my work load outside the shop.

I have made and sold things as small as bowls & turned coasters, up to a large whole wall bookcase with rolling library ladder. Everything I have sold has been commission work picked up by work of mouth. I have turned down way more work then I have done due to time constraints, especially kitchen jobs. I have made a hand full of kitchens, but none have been sold.

I have come to the conclusion, for me at least, small project are hard to make any money on when I put any value to my time. Any small stuff I sell I just look at as a little extra cash in my pocket and don't look at the hours spent. I have done a few custom built-ins lately, and those are they type of project I like. Stuff you cant find in any store.

Going forward though some of this may change. Now that the shop if done, my wife has been pushing me to "retire" so I can get more projects done at home. If/when this happens I will have to rethink marketing & sales of items from my multiple "hobbies"

[WV Sawmiller]

Tom,

  I agree on the eye catcher and getting folks to talk. I sometimes take my toilet seat just to get people looking. They see it and laugh but then I tell them the house goes with it if they need one at their camp or barn or such. Sometimes people sit on it and take a picture. It often does get them thinking about their camp or cabin with no water and sometimes they will order one.

  I have a poster I tack up that says "Blue Lives Matter" in big bold letters then underneath it says "Buy your homeless bluebird  place to live". That catches their eye and I sell more bluebird boxes than anything else but also because they are cheap. I also have a couple of pictures of nests with eggs, baby bluebirds in the nest and adults entering to show they do work - which they do. When they ask I tell them the kind of places to put them out.

  I often tell people walking by "Come on over and sit down. Rest your weary bones. Test out the bench. I bet it fits." Sometimes a tired shopper will sit and talk for several minutes. The Lichtenberg engraving on the benches get a lot of comments and questions and I have to explain that but it stops them and opens the door to more discussion.

  I hate a pushy salesman and I know personally I like the things I bought (Because I made the decision) and I hate the things people sold me (where they talked me into buying something I really did not want). Tell them about the wood and the process and answer their questions but don't push or you will end up making them mad and/or driving them away. Like in a department store if the clerk hovers over you like he thinks you're going to break or steal something I'll probably leave soon where a friendly "Let me know if I can help you" then they go on about their work is greatly appreciated.

[Larry]

Well I suppose ya could give it away....  A support auction for the Eureka Springs School of The Arts which I support.
Mad Hatter Auction
Bid often and I will let you know when to quit....promise.  The auction also gets my name out there.

Or you could get on local TV.
Our Art, Our Time, Our Region art exhibition returns to Walton Arts Center - YouTube
My lamp sold a few minutes after the doors opened.  It will remain in the art gallery until the exhibition ends at the end of October. 

There are non profit co-ops around with low commissions and the members network. 

I tried craft shows but I'm sorta lazy and didn't like the time and effort to sell.

[Crusarius]

Hmm I guess I will bite, especially since my holiday trinkets thread must be in the wrong spot its not getting much attention.

So, after getting into the CNC world with my homemade CNC's I then started using them to produce what I would call trinkets.

I make anodized aluminum emergency contact tags, and lighted acrylic signs. I am setup to engrave on any material. Currently my CNC is 5'x5'. It gives me lots of room for dog tags

With the holiday season upon us I am making up some lighted acrylic signs for the next couple shows I was told I am participating in.



 

 

The acrylic still has the protective film on one side so its frosted. Once removed its crystal clear. I actually purchase a small 3018 CNC and take it to the shows with me. I offer personalization and customization on everything I sell. Each of the acrylics takes less than 10 minutes to cut.



 

The emergency contact dogtags turned into an instant hit with finger lakes 4x4 club. Everyone was trying to figure out how we could have emergency contacts with us on trail raides. This was my solution.

I am branching out more and always expanding my library. all of the artwork I have is produced by my wife and I. This way I do not have to deal with copyright issues or ppl claiming I stole their work.

This is just a fraction of what I have running through my head. I actually picked up a 18" round piece of glass from the side of the road that is going to have something kool done to it. No idea what yet. But its gonna be kool

[Old Greenhorn]

I am currently working on a commissioned stereo table stand for my best client. It's a Chistmas present for his daughter and when he asked a rough price I put it somewhere around $250. or so, then he asked for live edge on the top, then a float coat of epoxy. I didn't promise the live edge, but added $150 or so for the epoxy work.
So last night I am working on this (I already have about 80 hours in it) and I start thinking how I am not making any money at all on it. Now a lot of my labor hours are for repair and salvage work on the wood before I can really get started, so that is kind on on me. But I started to realize that when I figure costs I never really figure the value of the wood. My prior project was cherry and if I had bought that cherry from HD it would have been $145.00, not counting the ERC I used for trim. I am charging $250. for the unit, completed. I think it took me about 50 hours to make the unit, because I am old, slow and not very good. I don't charge for those qualities.  For my current project, the wood would be well in excess $250.00 if I paid $8./BF and $434.00 if it were $14./BF. This one uses 8/4 Ash FAS, 6/4 RO F2S, and 4/4 Maple FAS. Seems HD gets like $14./BF for all hardwood S4S in general, give or take. So Charging $450. or so for a unit that uses $434. in material doesn't sound like the best business move.
Now I know these clients don't realize the value of this wood when it has been properly prepared and I also realize it is my time to do all that pre and care work, but the bottom line is what the client pays or more accurately, what they are willing to pay.
I guess I am having a bit of a crisis of faith here. If I can't charge for the fair value of what I am selling and I am basically giving away my labor, what is the point? I can't seem to develop a market for what I make that is willing to pay the price of admission. I really don't want to load my truck, drive to NYC and try to peddle my stuff the the shops down there and I can't figure another plan.

So my question here is: When you folks build stuff, how do you figure the value of the material that you actually create, not the stuff you buy?  Can you charge the real value? I see a lot of our crew here that can get Walnut easily and readily and make benches and such they sell at a price I would never consider because I have yet to get my hands on any walnut. I get it, it's available to you, but still, try buying walnut FAS and see what the price is or buy it in 8/4 and see what that price tag looks like.
All I know is, as hard as I work, the invoices really don't make me feel very good about things in general. How do you guys look at and deal with this issue?

[Crusarius]

I stopped trying to do anything like that for just that reason. no one understands the price of true craftsmanship. The only way to make money on any of your pieces is peddle them in NYC. this area is not very conducive to selling at fair prices for the craftsman or for the purchaser.

The best way to start making money on them is to tell them the REAL price. that will get rid of the tire kickers and maybe get some real ppl in the door. But until your name is out there, you are nobody to the ones with money.

It is a very tough position to be in. Part of the reason I started making the cheap acrylic signs. I can sell them cheap enough ppl will buy them but still high enough to make a profit.

[Ianab]

" So my question here is: When you folks build stuff, how do you figure the value of the material that you actually create, not the stuff you buy? "

Interesting question. There might be 3 different valuations you could put on a board.

One would be your Cost to Produce. Even if it's your own tree, it may have a "stumpage" value as a standing tree. What a logger would pay for that tree. It might be zero, or it might be $1,000 for something special. Then it's cost you time and expenses to harvest the tree, then mill and dry it. So you might allow a days work converting that tree to usable lumber, and you have used fuel and consumables. That's your cost to produce a basic board. So now for example maybe it's cost $1 bd/ft to produce those boards.

Next value would be what can you sell it for? That depends on the local market, and you don't have a lot of control over that. But if the sale price is more than your production cost, you could sell the boards and be ahead on the deal. There are some extra costs involved in selling it of course, time, advertising, delivery etc. But if you can easily sell that wood for $1:50, then that's really it's current value. Then you need to weigh up the economics of using that piece of wood yourself, are you actually adding any value by making it into something?

Then there is the retail pricing. You wouldn't go to a big box store to buy lumber to make items for sale. You would shop at a local mill or wholesaler, and get a more sensible price.  But that's a 3rd potential value. What would it cost YOU if you wanted to buy this wood?

Now cost of your time is a whole other can of worms.

[Old Greenhorn]

Well Ian, you are kind of zeroing in on nailing down an exact value or cost for the wood. I started to do that myself, but then I simplified it because my real question is more general. We have had the "how much to charge for your lumber?" question quite often here on the forum and I am not asking that. So I settled in on a more general view. If somebody asked me to build this piece of furniture  with those materials, what would the material cost be to me? I am not hung up on getting top dollar for my wood, I am hung up on getting fair value for the final product I supply to the client.
This current build I am doing will have close to 200 hours into it when I deliver it. 400 bucks doesn't work out too well for that effort and time, let alone materials. I am asking how others have thought this through and worked it out and if they have found ways to market what they make that I haven't thought of, because I am not very smart.

Cru, I am going to sleep on your post overnight and reply tomorrow. You raised some interesting thoughts I'd like to explore.

[WV Sawmiller]

Tom,

   Are you buying or making the wood you use? If you are making it can you sell it at a decent price at/with a fast turn around? I figure making and selling some crafts is another way to sell the wood. If course when you do that you should expect and demand a premium price for it. Figuring your time is hard because if it is the first time you build something but will build more in the future you are learning faster and better ways to do it next time and you don't want to put all that cost of the first customer if you can help it. If it is a super special item that you never plan to build again that is different and establish and collect a decent hourly rate you are comfortable charging and working for.

   Good lock and let us know what you find out/decide.

[Ianab]

The Marketing is a whole other can of worms.  But before you even try and set a price, you have to have a handle on your costs. If you are selling for "what the market will allow", you could be losing $$ on each unit. In that case it's time to re-evaluate if that particular item is viable, or what you can do to make it viable.

Putting 50 hours into a $250 job means your shop time is only $5 an hour, even if the materials are free. So it probably has you losing $$ on the job once you take off the various random expenses.

For that sort of money you need projects, or at least the methods, that can knock them out in a day, even if it ends up being 2 hours a day for a week to allow glue and finish to cure etc.  Something that takes weeks to complete has to be priced in the $thousands, and is only going to sell to very specific buyers.

Stuff I've made and sold in the past has been things like kids furniture for the wife's kindy. You don't spend days polishing that, a couple of coats of heavy duty poly and it's good to go. Simple stuff like low tables, built tough, and from "locally salvaged and naturally durable timber" which goes down well in that scene. I could check prices against their catalogue of commercial furniture, and could do simple solid wood for a similar cost to MDF.

[customsawyer]

Tom you are getting into the same old story about how much to charge for milling or any other part of the wood business. One of the things I learned in running my business for over 30 years is, if I'm not going to make money at it then I'm better off going fishing. Fishing puts less wear on my equipment and cost less to operate. If someone doesn't want to pay what a job is worth then they can get one of the cheap guys to do the job.
You said that you are charging $250.00 for the piece and will have over 200 hours in it. If I called you and asked you to come run my mill for $1.50/hr you would be money ahead. First off I would be covering all of your expenses. Second you wouldn't be putting an wear on your tools.

[Old Greenhorn]

Thank you gentlemen. You are focusing in on figuring basic business/profit numbers and I wasn't intending to re-visit all that. I get that, I really do, even though by my descriptions it may seem like I did not. Of course it is clear by my previous statements that I am a terrible business person who is poor at math. Of course I know I am selling myself woefully short. I also probably asked my questions poorly. Yes, I would much rather be fishing, after all, I am retired, but instead I work 7 days a week trying to get by.
Coming at this question from another direction by way of some explanation: I am trying to make enough money to pay my taxes and other incidental expenses. In the beginning it was too hard, but this last year or so it is getting really rough and I am feeling a lot of pressure and not sleeping well some nights. Even if I sell my stuff at a 'loss' it still means cash coming in. The wood I make has very low cost to me, and the cost of hardware or finishes can be spread over several jobs usually, so again, minimal outlay. The 'value added' is my time and what little skills I can muster for the task. BUT, when somebody can buy an item from me, made from quality wood by hand and get it at a price close to the crap they sell these days as furniture made from pressed cardboard, something is wrong. I can't 'make' people buy my stuff, but when they call me I need to do a better job getting the prices I need to make a living.
I think I am answering my own question here. I need to make bird houses or other crap by the truck load and go on the road peddling them on street corners and in parking lots. Yeah, I would rather be fishing, but fishing pays even less. I really don't 'want' to make money, but I 'have' to make money and my back is getting against the wall here.

Cru, you made an interesting statement above:
"...this area is not very conducive to selling at fair prices for the craftsman or for the purchaser."
I wonder if you could expand on that thought a bit, especially about 'fair prices ... for the purchaser' ? What does that mean? Nobody has ever complained about my prices (I know you weren't implying that), but maybe I should get them to wince once in a while.

I guess, at this point, the best thing to do is re-visit this whole plan and maybe do something else, like get a job stocking shelves and make money by selling my tools and equipment off.

[aigheadish]

While I'm not making money off anything I do I understand what frustrations you are having Tom. (I don't make many things but I know spending about 300 bucks on a simple cutting board for my sister was a surprise and would drastically alter it's sellability to me)

I wonder if, when someone calls for a commissioned project, you could give a couple tiers of project results. So, like the guy that wants the stereo shelf- you say "well there are a few different options- Garbage mdf, that you'll paint, and it won't last through more than two house moves, that'll cost 250 bucks; mid-grade pine that'll look decent, we can slap a live edge on it, that'll cost $400; or, a high-end Cherry/Walnut/Oak piece, that'll last generations, look great, and be a conversation starter every time someone walks in a room, that'll cost 1200 bucks."

I've met you, you are an excellent talker, and while you may not think you are a salesman you really don't have to be, you know your stuff well enough that I think you'd be able to add some value to a project and some cash to your pocket while you upcharge a bit and receive a bit more for your work.

I think, if the stereo shelf guy is coming back for repeat work, you are either not charging enough or it's just right for him but not you. It may be worth asking someone like that what they'd expect to pay. Maybe start with "What's your budget?" when discussing the project.

[Tom K]

So to answer what I believe was your original question, I would value my wood at what I can sell it to someone else for. Using the value of store bought, FAS, kiln dried wood would not be accurate if that is not what you have.

Since your are concerned more about dollars coming you you do have the option to discount your wood value to increase your labor, but that's just playing a shell game to a certain extent.

Adding to your conversation with Crusarius, if people are not back tracking a little or trying to negotiate down your price they you are too cheap. Double or triple your prices and go from there. You should be losing a percentage of your bids because you are to high, increase your price until you do. The last couple larger projects I was over the owners budget by a $1k or so. I stood my ground and the owner came up to my price.

The last line in your last post is really what you need to figure out. You need the extra cash, what do you prefer to spend your time doing to get it? Only you can answer that question.

[21incher]

We have a couple Amish stores that sell handmade furniture , both custom and stock units that are comparable to what most craftspeople make. I like to visit and check pricing.  This is one https://www.saudersstore.com/indoor-furniture and I can tell you the prices have trippled the last couple years. People are willing to pay the prices without questions mostly I think because  it has the Amish made tag that they associate with good value and quality. A stock  cabinet like your  making would  probably fetch $1200.00. Then they make the same cabinet from low cost wood and painted that would cost a little  less. They are all made with production tooling and jigs that speed things up and finishing booths to speed up perfect finishes.  That is what you compete with around here and the sales people are just low paid workers,  not the craftspeople wasting time dealing with the customer.  I think it's  very hard to compete with showrooms like that without under pricing manufacturing costs around here.

On the other  hand little  things can be profitable and sell. I recently made a batch  of little  ornaments with gnomes and gave most away. One of the women that got one showed a friend and she wants some made so she asked me how much to make some. I don't like making things to sell so gave her what I thought was a ridiculous price of $25 each. Well she didn't  think it was ridiculous and wants a complete  set of 9. I can make 4 to 5 an hour with about $1.50 each plywood cost and 50 cents for the cardboard gift boxes. They are just little  gotta haves when people see them and very fun to make and very little  labor involved because  of a $2600 laser. Once the first batch is made costs are concrete. Sure they are a seasonal item but the low price makes them great handmade gifts that are affordable.  I make a lot of little  things on my youtube channel and get so many requests from people wanting  to but them but say no because it's only me but if I was younger I would setup an online  storefront and bet it would be profitable by having a large customer  base from areas that aren't depressed like western NY.  But at this point I just want to have fun with no serious responsibility and the grandkids have no interest to get involved making things that could provide them with extra money with very little work.  I think little things can be  profitable but just don't give me me the satisfaction of making one offs at this point in life so you may need both to keep profitable and enjoy what you do. 

[doc henderson]

Tom, none of our business.  the holidays are already stressful enough.  Does Bill have work building up?  It seems like you are needed on a regular basis to go put out a fire.  I assume he pays you.  the shop woodwork is a combo of skill and marketing as well as seasonal fluctuations.  If I were in your shoes, I would concentrate for now on a known guaranteed hourly wage to get through the holidays and get back to the building of your home business after the dust settles.  Maybe I should have made this a PM.  There are no guarantees in business.

[WV Sawmiller]

   Are you running a business or a cost neutral hobby?

   I tell most folks I am a cost neutral hobby. If you are a hobby and you can't afford the difference between what it costs and what you are bringing in, you need to raise prices or find a different hobby. Most of us have hobbies we pay for and accept that cost for the enjoyment it brings us.  I don't depend on my mill and associated work for a living but it does pretty well pay for itself and I have fun doing it and meeting and helping people. Yes, I am helping people and that is rewarding to me. I am never on a tight schedule. If the fish are biting or the deer season is in or such I can pretty much always schedule that ahead of a sawing job or building something.

    Are you having fun dealing with people and being challenged to come with up with ways to create something special? If you weren't doing your wood projects what would you be doing? Do you do the work for the money or the fun of creating something unique and making people happy?

   I liked my overseas work and the related, paid travel and such but that played out and was no longer an option so I ended up with time to fill. I retired and I hunted and fished and played with the grandkids for a couple of years and such but it did not fill my time and keep me busy and entertained so I finally stopped by the Woodmizer dealer in NC on a way to visit my daughter and I bought the mill and found this site. I have pretty much been as busy as I wanted to be ever since but I work at my pace.

    When someone calls and tells me someone else down the road saws logs cheaper I tell them to take them there and I never regret that decision. They would not have been a fun customer to work for anyway and I don't want or have to deal with people like that.

    Good luck on your decisions. Remember, if you weren't doing things like this you would never have met me and the others on the design committee here. Maybe you need to go paint something purple to recharge your batteries.  ;)

[Old Greenhorn]

Howard, I am assuming all your questions were rhetorical since the answers can be found in my prior posts.

Doc, no issue with that post and you are paying attention. Yes, Bill needs my work and he calls me every couple of days to politely remind work is sitting there. But that is straight labor work and tough on an old man, especially in this weather. I do have a machine to rebuild for him, but am waiting for him the get the frame re-painted before I start assembly and re-making parts. I figure that for after the holidays since it will consume a bunch of my floor space while I am working on it. Doing his stuff in my shop is more ideal for me. There is always wood to mill, and he has a stack of chipper blades to re-sharpen (which I keep avoiding because the machine is filthy and I come home wearing coolant cologne and grinding swarf, plus I have to climb a 15' ladder to get up in the cluttered loft to work.) So I could go that route but I need to get this last project done. I also need to take some ERC back to the mill to re-saw for another lot-run of cremation urns over the winter. At least those sell in spurts, here and there. But working steady hours doing mostly physical work is tough for me. Tough enough is I got a request for logs, due in Feb. that will keep me busy cutting beginning in January, about 150-200 logs and there is another order expected behind that for about 40-50 logs. Still you have good ideas. The holidays are not adding any stress that I am aware of, the kids mostly do their own thing and I look at them as just another day, likely working in the mornings at least. It's the tax bill and insurance bill coming if Jan. and Feb. that are on my mind all the time now. I am putting money away in dribs and drabs as it dribbles in, but daily household expenses keep eating away at that.

21, Those are some interesting thoughts. I wish that link had some pricing on it, that would help a lot. Even though I know what the value of these things should be, people won't even entertain spending that kind of money as far as I can tell. Yeah, I get lucky sometimes, but mostly not. I allow myself to get talked into things and I really have to break that habit clean off. I am terrible at quoting work on the fly, always have been.

My last show of the year is this Sunday, so maybe some freak thing will happen and I will do well. It's not likely, but that would change a lot of things. I'll give it my best shot and even have a few last minute small items I am finishing up in the shop right now for it. I do have a bunch of work lined up for over the winter to build stock back up, but that will have to wait until shows begin again in the spring. Most of this planned work is mid-range stuff, in the $125. -$250. range, those things I have been able to sell even though they are worth more than I charge.

I guess I am trying to balance making things I enjoy with making things that I can sell without too much marketing and I still have no idea what that picture looks like.