Hi guys, just thought I'd introduce myself. I found the site while searching for info on Woodmizer's LT40s. I am in the small scale stationary sawmill business and currently run a Norwood Lumbermate 2000 with the 20HP Honda and a 65 hp tractor with loader for handling. This looks like a great place with a lot of talk about mills in a small business atmosphere. I have been on the arborist website for some time now, but think that this is a better fit.
Welcome to the Forum Coalsmoke!
Glad to have you here Coalsmoke. This place is just crawling with LT40's. I cannot imagine a question about them that cannot be answered here. They are really nice mills. I hear good stuff about the Norwoods too..
Thanks guys. I feel Norwood is one of the better mills out there for what they cost, but I'm fast outgrowing it. I'm constantly carrying a 2-8 week backlog of orders. Last month I watched a manual LT40 with the gas engine operate at a local wood show and was impressed with its cutting speed while still staying accurate. It got me thinking that an upgrade might be in order this spring.
Welcome to the Forestry Forum Coalsmoke!
This is a great place with lots of answers for most questions!
Two years ago, I ran my FIL's manual LT40 mill it had an 18 hp B&S engine and in general it's a wonderful machine!
Last year (08) I bought my own mill, LT40HDG24 and love it. The hydraulics takes most of the bull-work out of sawing and log handling!
Overall, this is as good or better than most sites for questions & answers!
So, if you've got questions, just fire away, I'm sure you'll get replies!
Again, welcome to the Forum!
Welcome Coalsmoke
I just made the upgrade from a Norwood to an LT40HD25 8) I would definitely look for one with hydraulics. The Norwood is the best manual mill for the money, but you can't compete with hydraulics.
Nick
Welcome to the Forum, coalsmoke. I just upgraded from a LT15 to a LT40HDD35. I can saw without being so tired now.
Don
Coalsmoke, Welcome to FF..... 8) Glad to have you aboard..... :)
welcome . sounds like you already love making sawdust, good luck in your upgrade hunt. pc :)
welcome aboard. with that much of a backlog sounds like you need a hydraulic mill.
Welcome Coalsmoke,checked out your website your a pretty active dude.My feelings on the matter a manual mill is for dubbing around for your own lumber if you plan on selling much by all means go hydraulic.Swing mills or mobile dimension mills are an option,or rebuild an old circular mill if you want to go all the way.Frank C.
Thanks guys. Sorry for the delayed post, I haven't figured out how to get the forum email notifications yet, I'll go hunting for it after this post.
A hydraulic mill would be nice, but I'm not sure its the best decision at this point. I'm on a fairly tight budget, and the extra money on a hydraulic mill would take that much longer to work up, without maxing out every dollar of credit I have. My thoughts on the lt40 manual are that I have a fairly large tractor that handles the log handling and loading fine, so a hydraulic loader is not something I would really need. I don't mind dogging by hand. The two things I would like are an increased cutting speed with a power feed and a power log turner. Those are the items I can see really improving my daily sawing operations. I have an idea of mounting an electric ATV winch on the manual log turner to power it. For the smaller logs a peavey is fast and I have the energy to use it ;)
One big question I have in my head right now is in regards to the diesel vs gas engine. I'll start a new thread for it.
Quote from: bandmiller2 on November 22, 2009, 06:51:10 AM
Welcome Coalsmoke,checked out your website your a pretty active dude.My feelings on the matter a manual mill is for dubbing around for your own lumber if you plan on selling much by all means go hydraulic.Swing mills or mobile dimension mills are an option,or rebuild an old circular mill if you want to go all the way.Frank C.
Thanks Bandmiller. As for the mills, I'm pretty well set on another bandmill. Its what I am used to, I have all the supporting blade management equipment for it, and its versatile enough to handle all my needs. In fact, I couldn't be happier with a bandmill vs circle / swing, etc.
Quote from: Coalsmoke on November 23, 2009, 02:47:12 AM
Thanks guys. Sorry for the delayed post, I haven't figured out how to get the forum email notifications yet, I'll go hunting for it after this post.
Coalsmoke; If you want to send someone a PM (personal message), just put your pointer on their name and a msg will come up "view the profile of (persons name), click on it and scroll down to the bottom of their profile and you will see a couple of options and one of them is send a PM. click on that and type away. When the person opens their email, they'll have a message that they have received a PM.
Chuck
Thank's Chuck. Turns out my span filter was eating the instant email notifications. Good to go now.
Finally had a chance to check out your website. Looks good.
Thanks fishpharmer. It started a few years back when I was running a mobile welding rig and wanted a way to show family and friends what I was up to.
I have found that the hydraulics are the bigger time saver for me than the increased feed rate. Being able to turn large logs with the claw turner is great, but I use the 2 plane clamp a lot more to turn cants. Have you seen an hydraulic mill in action? I would look for a used LT40HD with relatively low hours on it.
Nick
I really like the two-plane clamp. 8)
Hey Nick. I've seen a 40 hydraulic at a wood show a couple years back. I'm not saying I don't want one, but a person has to consider economics.
Most of my market is softwoods, so I'm not flipping cants as much as say if I were grade sawing hardwoods all day.
yebbet, If you are considering a diesel on a manual LT40 you might pay the same for a gas hydraulic, which I think would be faster.
Nick
Point well taken.
Coalsmoke
Never know where you will turn up next How goes your battle with the mud ? was not bad here in Oregon till last week end when we got dumped on big time. Haven't even been up to mill since Friday nite. Would post some pics of the the old Bellsaw now that I got shed finished but me and the picture part have issues. Hopefully it will dry out some so I can load deck up again but in the mud 40,000 pound tracked log loader makes a BIG mess fast >:( >:( Sawed up an 18 ft log about 30" on small end and decided 24" is big enough ::) ::) ::)
Brian
Hey Brian, how are you doing, fancy seeing you here! We've sure had it wet here on the west coast lately eh. One day last week we got 6" of rain overnight. I'm winning against the mud. I brought in 120 yards of stump hog, a coarse hog fuel. Last week I took 5 days off from milling to dig out the 8-12" of mud and have been refilling with stump hog and packing it. It was getting to the point that I was loosing too much time to the mud. I'm glad I have a wheeled loader now and not tracks. As much as I like tracks, the wheels keep packing this new base material every time I go over it instead of scrubbing and kicking it up.
Looking forward to seeing pictures of your shed. I'm looking forward to getting my mill moved over to the new site and in the saw shed (yet to be built). I'll probably have it done by the time the spring rains are done ::)
The way I see it 30" logs are for guys with hydraulics or lots of helpers. I've done up to 36", had to do a little chainsaw trimming first to get it down to 31". Really though I find the mid teens to the mid twenties are my preferred size ranges.
captain_crunch (Brian) Glad to see you posting. Welcome to FF..... 8) I guess that coalsmoke "smoked" you out..... :D
Been doing more listening than talking :-\ Been around logging most of my life but milling is all new to me so I been reading a lot. My mill is more Nostalga than production So I put it on a site where there was a mill in the early 40's here on home place. Sawing logs skidded with same model IH cat on same ground as back then. Piped up when I seen C_S's post to let him know he was not the only newbe
Brian
Smoke someone out, me, nawwwww, never, just create a little mosquito repellent is all :D
Captain crunch, you say your mill is more nostalgia than production, but I suspect it could hold its own just fine with that hungry crew of yours working it. I'll say this much, this is my first year on a bandmill. To me, this is production, especially when compared to the chainsaw mills I had before. Measure twice cut once really takes on a new meaning when a single cut takes 10 + minutes, but it will make a person a decent sawyer first if he wants to avoid re-working a bunch of timber due to stupid mistakes.
C_S
An Alaskan Mill be just a jump ahead of two guys and a misery whip. We could proably get quite a pile thru the mill ifn I could get CREW all in one pile at once :-\ :-\ but Jered has 97 cummins to play with. Kristen has her dirt bike and Shorty is bow hunting. So ole Dad is kinda a one man band. Other limiting factor is I saw up a log then I seem to have to nail the boards up on mill shed ;) ;) ;) So till I run out of nails there are not any boards left to sell >:( >:( I have been around the older mighty mites and mobile deminsion mills. Where they had edgers a 6ft log were not a challange for them. Sawyer just needed a ladder to run saw. I like the sand saw concept but at 2000.00 for the bellsaw set up on trailer with roof and in sawing shape I went with it. Check your Email and see if the pics I sent you came thru
Brian
Hi, Coalsmoke, and a belated welcome.
I bought a manual LT40G28 in 2005, complete with the log deck package (and a Logrite mill special cant hook :) ). A hydraulic mill would have been nice, but I didn't have the bucks. I had a pretty lean first year but it started to pick up in the last half and then got totally out of hand, so ...
One year after I bought the manual mill I sold it and bought an LT40HDG28. I had to borrow to buy it, but I had no trouble getting a bank loan. With a year's experience and a proper set of accounts it was easy to write up a simple business plan to justify the loan.
Selling the "old" mill was no problem. As soon as I told WoodMizer the loan was approved, they started referring potential customers to me. Got the loan approval on Wednesday, got a call from a serious buyer on Friday, demoed (and sold) the mill on Saturday, delivered it on Monday on my way to Salmon Arm, picked up the new mill on Tuesday and was sawing again on Wednesday.
Some people told me I should've bought the hydraulic mill to start with. Thing is, I didn't have enough business in that first year to make the payments. One year later I had a steady income -- enough to pay off a 5 year loan in 20 months.
Quote from: captain_crunch on November 25, 2009, 01:37:49 AM
C_S
An Alaskan Mill be just a jump ahead of two guys and a misery whip. We could proably get quite a pile thru the mill ifn I could get CREW all in one pile at once :-\ :-\ but Jered has 97 cummins to play with. Kristen has her dirt bike and Shorty is bow hunting. So ole Dad is kinda a one man band. Other limiting factor is I saw up a log then I seem to have to nail the boards up on mill shed ;) ;) ;) So till I run out of nails there are not any boards left to sell >:( >:( I have been around the older mighty mites and mobile deminsion mills. Where they had edgers a 6ft log were not a challange for them. Sawyer just needed a ladder to run saw. I like the sand saw concept but at 2000.00 for the bellsaw set up on trailer with roof and in sawing shape I went with it. Check your Email and see if the pics I sent you came thru
Brian
Hey Brian, got the pics, thanks. That misery whip reminded me of a story I read about BC logging history. Late 1800s: A sawmill company hand cut with misery whips enough wood to build a steam ship so they could float all the parts for their steam mill up the river. BTW, Have you ever seen that video documentary "alone in the wilderness." What Dick can do with a handsaw and elbow grease is impressive. I figured if you haven't seen it you might enjoy it. One of my favourites.
Quote from: Brucer on November 25, 2009, 02:39:25 AM
Hi, Coalsmoke, and a belated welcome.
I bought a manual LT40G28 in 2005, complete with the log deck package (and a Logrite mill special cant hook :) ). A hydraulic mill would have been nice, but I didn't have the bucks. I had a pretty lean first year but it started to pick up in the last half and then got totally out of hand, so ...
One year after I bought the manual mill I sold it and bought an LT40HDG28. I had to borrow to buy it, but I had no trouble getting a bank loan. With a year's experience and a proper set of accounts it was easy to write up a simple business plan to justify the loan.
Selling the "old" mill was no problem. As soon as I told WoodMizer the loan was approved, they started referring potential customers to me. Got the loan approval on Wednesday, got a call from a serious buyer on Friday, demoed (and sold) the mill on Saturday, delivered it on Monday on my way to Salmon Arm, picked up the new mill on Tuesday and was sawing again on Wednesday.
Some people told me I should've bought the hydraulic mill to start with. Thing is, I didn't have enough business in that first year to make the payments. One year later I had a steady income -- enough to pay off a 5 year loan in 20 months.
Hi Bruce, thanks for the info. That position you started off in is the same position I am in now. Trying to do things in a methodical order. I'm also paying off loans from my post secondary education. Down to about $45K left.
I went back and found some of your posts on the LT40 manual mill to try and get a feel for the mill's capabilities. I appreciate that you told it like it was, not downplaying its effectiveness or suitability for that stage in your sawing career.
My biggest question I have been thinking through these past couple of months is, would I as a 1 person non-mobile sawyer be better to upgrade to a LT40 manual mill in the coming year and run it for a few years before going to hydraulic, or, should I stick with the Norwood LM2000 I have now, (20HP manual bandmill) and work it for a few years until I can afford to roll the extra money into a hydraulic mill. Now, where did I stick that crystal ball. :P
Welcome to the forum Coalsmoke. Lots of good people here.
John
Hi Coalsmoke and welcome.
I was wondering if you ever thought about adding hydraulics to the sawyou have, even just to load clamp and turn the log would speed up things a lot, I know I spend more time doing those things than cutting with my home built csm, I tried a guys LM for a bit once and found that it raised and lowered quite easy and almost pulled itself through the log, so I figure log handleing would be where the time and back savings would be. I also see by your great web site that you seem to have the talent for those kind of things. It looks like a lot the great folks on here seem to like the 2 plane clamp and the chain turner set up best. Could be run 12v electric hyd, a small 4 or 5 hp gas engine with hyd pump or 110v hyd if you are setup near a power supply and not wanting to go mobile. Just some ideas,
Cheers
Don't forget there are alot of used mills out there you might be able to get a good used hyd. mill for about the same as a manual. I just bought a LT 70 used from WoodMizer with less than 600 hours on it for about $15,000 off of a new one.
As you can probably imagine, I agree with customsawyer. I don't think an LT40 manual is a big enough step up from your Norwood. Save your money until you can find an hydraulic mill in your price range. I paid less than half the new price for my LT40 with a sharpener and setter and no tax 8)13% in Ontario >:(.
Nick
Thanks guys for the welcome and the opinions. The info is appreciated. Hilltop, I certainly have thought about that, at least just adding a hydraulic log turner and clamp, but I think as has been mentioned that for the time and cost involved, I would be better to just find a used hydraulic mill. My main thoughts at this point are, is a larger mill a wise payoff for someone in my position, and if so, at what point (in terms of increasing production) does it make sense to upgrade. Here's what I mean...
I find, (as I'm sure many other 1 man sawmills find) I only spend a portion of the day with the blade in the wood. I spend a fair bit of time pulling logs out of the log decks and taking them to the mill, pulling boards off and stacking them, trimming logs to length, dealing with the mill byproducts like firewood, sawdust, woodchips, dealing with customers, etc etc. This to some degree makes me wonder how much production increase in the overall daily picture I would see by going to a larger mill, considering that I am a 1 person outfit. I definitely like the idea of hydraulics for the larger logs, but most of my logs are mostly 15 - 24", quite manageable with a peavey. If I upgraded to a LT40 hydraulic lets say, I might go from the 200 bd feet per hour I get sawing 2x6s with my Norwood to 300 bd ft sawing the same wood with a LT40HD28. However, I find currently I only average 100bd ft an hour when looking at the overall daily average, because the other half of my time is spent doing everything else associated with running a mill. The 100bd ft / hour increase I would see from the upgrade to a LT40HD28 would maybe only be 50 bd ft and hour over the day. Maybe the margin would be even less than this, or maybe more. I've never run a hydraulic mill so I'm not sure.
What I did do though was time some of my cuts this morning. With my Norwood with the 20HP Honda, cutting 6" wide Douglas Fir and a blade that already has about 2 hours of cutting on it, I am consistently traveling around 1 foot per second, or 60 feet per minute through the wood. Anyone with a Woodmizer in the LT40 range have any cutting speed numbers they can compare this with?
Thanks for the great forum. It's nice being able to find other sawyers who have done the small scale commercial production before and know what they speak of. :)
Quote from: Coalsmoke on November 27, 2009, 05:11:35 PM
I find, (as I'm sure many other 1 man sawmills find) I only spend a portion of the day with the blade in the wood. I spend a fair bit of time pulling logs out of the log decks and taking them to the mill, pulling boards off and stacking them, trimming logs to length, dealing with the mill byproducts like firewood, sawdust, woodchips, dealing with customers, etc etc. This to some degree makes me wonder how much production increase in the overall daily picture I would see by going to a larger mill, considering that I am a 1 person outfit.
Yep, that's exactly the issue that many folks overlook. Increase your sawing output by 10%, and all those other things increase by 10% as well.
I was lucky -- when I upgraded the mill my customer's employees were taking care of most of the side activities. Now I'm running entirely independent and have to do it all myself. But the mill is paid for.
What I'm doing right now is finding better and faster ways to do the non-sawing tasks. Some examples:
- I just finished a season using third-generation slab racks. Each version was made from wood. I've finally got it right, so this winter I'll be building a couple of new racks out of metal.
- My timber outfeed table worked great for two years, when it was "someone else's" job to take away lifts of timbers. Now I have to assemble and store multiple orders. Since my loader is rented by the engine hour, I've redesigned the outfeed table so I can use it to move timbers to different piles.
- I rearranged my slab and side-lumber handling methods this past years. It works a lot better, but I figured out that I can still improve it, so new fixtures are in the works this winter.
Of course there's a couple of other factors to consider as well. Can your log sources keep up with a higher demand? Can your markets handle extra supply (including the by-product markets)?