Using the forest as carbon storage - and get payed for it?

[mike_belben]

I bet those natives will regret it soon as the money is spent. 

[Ianab]

Establishing a new forest does lock up a useful amount of carbon in the trees and soil. But an established forest is pretty much neutral for CO2. The bugs / worms / fungus that are breaking down the old wood are using as much O2 as the trees are producing, so the actual amount of carbon doesn't change any more. 

It's arguably better to harvest the logs, and then tie the carbon up in buildings (rather than plastic / steel etc) Or even burn the wood (firewood or power station) instead of using coal or natural gas. Burning the wood only releases the CO2 that was going to escape as the tree rotted (or burnt in a forest fire) 

So I don't see "Carbon Farming" as any long term solution, especially if you are claiming to do it with an established forest

[SwampDonkey]

Forests regenerate pretty well up here, in fact lots of money spend reforesting on sites already coming back with regen. Does it make sense to plant a black spruce beside a natural red spruce, then come along with a clearing saw and cut all them surplus spruce? Spend more money on the thinning and less on the planting maybe? :D I mean, the trees before were a mix, and all that wood made money (unless rotten). Hardwood is worth as much or more than softwood. ;D

[KEC]

Volcanos emit massive ammounts of CO2. There are vents deep in the bottom of the ocean that emit CO2 and have been doing so since day one. There are communities  of life forms that live in those vents. It takes a long time for them to evolve. I suspect that all these "solutions" to increasing CO2 cannot stop the rising levels of CO2. IMHO

[nativewolf]

The only solution I've seen that makes any sense to me is for foresters in northern virginia to be paid simply ludicrous amounts to preserve a few thousand acres of nice forest and plant several thousand trees.  Really, just simply ludicrous amounts of money for some foresters in northern va.  That money will be made from carbon (paper), the forester will sequester this money in his mattress thus locking it up until there is a sale on a Tesla cybertruck.  Need to lock up more Co2 ?  Just send more $ to the forester and he'll buy a bigger mattress.  

[mike_belben]

See i told you it was a crisis.  Hes not the only scientist who really, really needs a tesla.  Im sure more than a few will get theirs from pulling the carbon out of distant wallets. 

;D

[SwampDonkey]

One shall not utter the words "I don't know" or "I was wrong", IF you hold a PHD. :D

James Randi Lecture @ Caltech -a word on PHDs - YouTube

[clearcut]

Not a PhD. and I often "don't know", but I do enjoy getting paid for telling a landowner - especially a guv'mnt agency - how much carbon that they have, where it is, and how it's arranged. I do try diligently to be not wrong, admit when I am, and am willing to change my mind in light of new information. 

I also enjoy discussing, for a fee, how they can manage their land to rearrange that carbon to their benefit. If they choose to view that carbon as metric tonnes, board feet, cubic meters, or fuel load, we can discuss options. I'm unit agnostic, and price conscious. If these data stand as a base line to compare to future changes, I consider that good information. 

I stand on the backs of PhDs and their research to fuel these discussions with the most accurate science. I am grateful for their interest and understanding of topics that I have neither the time, interest, nor intellect to pursue.

For example, wrote a plan for a small landowner who was interested in creating stand structure to encourage specific birds. Their interest was photography. Following a standard inventory including bird counts,  I referenced the best available research on bird habitat requirements to draft a suitable plan. They are arranging their carbon into bird habitat / photographic opportunities, timber, firewood, mushroom logs, black cohosh, and maple syrup. 

I have only had contact with one consumer / small landowner facing carbon marketer. They have never responded to my inquiries. Apparently they don't believe they can make money in the carbon market either. In contrast, timber buyers and real estate agent always respond.

[Magicman]

I just got my copy of National Woodlands, a Magazine of the National Woodland Owners Association.  There was an article regarding BP acquiring a majority stake in the largest U.S. forest carbon offset developer, Finite Carbon.  The article went on to say that smaller landowners could now enroll in a one year "carbon rental" program where smaller landowner's parcels are "bundled" into large contracts at reduced financial returns.  This is an annual program with no fees and no long term (100 year) commitment. 

Personally I am pessimistic and do not believe that anything will come of it but I submitted my property for consideration for enrollment.  The website for enrollment is:  ncapx.com

[SwampDonkey]

If you never heard of James Randi, you might take that video the wrong way. He has these examples with some humor mixed in to show how easily anyone can be fooled. And he personally was involved in two lengthy experiments, the most famous one involved Penn and Teller when they were much younger. I believe it was with scientists who believed strongly in ESP, they took it hook line and sinker. These are the kinds of things he revealed to the public all his life. But people still have a strong urge to believe, even when shown that it most likely isn't true. He found the media was just as bad as the hoaxsters, they say/video anything to please the sponsors. Even when they know it is nonesense. Randi passed away last October, old age. Thank goodness for the Randi s in the world. ;D Randi had real respect for science and scientists some of them a lot more than others. ;)  Dowsing was a big experiment he did a few years ago to, they all failed the test. And folks, when dowsing for water, it's all around us. I can throw a stick in any direction, dig a well and high probability to have water. The US military paid $1000's for a box with a 70's TV remote circuitry with no connections and a TV antenna to locate IED's, used like a dowsing rod. I bet the media never reported that. ;) Lots of men killed using them. Oh they found the bomb, when it blew them up. :  'Shaking my head'. Look up ideomotor response. ;) There's lots of ways to make money, if you can convince the client he's getting a benefit. :D

[mike_belben]

Im failing wrap my head around the BP carbon rental thing.  It seems to me a hoax designed to transfer wealth. 

[Magicman]

I totally agree that it is smoke and mirrors to get grants, etc. same as several of our "free" energy sources.  I submitted my application to see what happens next, but it won't be $$$ for me.

My trees will use/produce the same nutrients whether they are sequestered or not.

[Sedgehammer]

Grass lands or productive farm land removes more carbon then the 'Longs of the world' amazon does. A jungle is carbon natural at best.

It's a racket so the rich can get richer and they can have a bunch of smuchs pay for it by thinking they are getting a good deal. You know what that land will be worth in 50 years or 75 years...... or even in 25 years. or even better yet how government will change the rules on the contract or who (large entity with endless lawyers) ever it was signed with. Just like the credit card company will change the 'user' agreement whether you like it or not.

Don't walk away. Don't run away. Sprint away as fast as you can.......

You really think you'll be able to harvest any wood from 'your' forests if you sign up? Even for small harvests?

[Magicman]

My 346 acres equals 115 acres of "Deferral Credits" so I made a bid to defer any timber harvest for one year.  I should know by March 8th whether my bid was accepted.  :

[Sauna freak]

This post has me very tempted to put 40 acres of forested bog with an average peat layer of 8' in thickness up for public auction of carbon sequestration.  I think I'll hold it hostage, with the plan to harvest all timber, air dry and sell the peat for landscape mulch, and mine the underlying sand and gravel unless paid an appropriate amount to manage the property for sustainable, carbon neutral or negative, long term forest production.  I bet some wealthy bleeding hearts would climb over each other to adopt my parcel.

[barbender]

Holding it hostage😂 Bonus points if you have some tar sand😂

[Nils Jonsson]

I bumped onto something interesting here in Sweden; A company who offers to convert unused open land to forest in order to create more carbon storage. A forest owner who has unused open land (old fields etc.) can apply and get $500 per hectare to do it (it's 5000 SEK, Swedish Krona, that is approximately 500 US dollars, let's keep it simple ;D). As the cost for forest planting here varies between $800 and $1500 this is more like a discount to get it done. The forest owner also have to sign an agreement to manage the new forest with aim to store as much carbon as possible for 50 years. 

The interesting part of this is that the company is run by four city boys 19-20 years old, who haven't got a clue about forestry. But they do know business as they "sell" plants to the public (city folks) for $1 per plant, incl. a GPS coordinate to show where the plant is planted. They make a deal with the forest owner to buy plants and plant them, for which he gets $500 per hectare - and pays 800 - 1500 to get it done. As the normal number of plants per hectare here is 2000 - 2500 the four lads make $2000 to $2500 per hectare minus the 500 to the forest owner!!

Well, why doesn't forestry people get such ideas?  :P

[SwampDonkey]

My 346 acres equals 115 acres of "Deferral Credits" so I made a bid to defer any timber harvest for one year.  I should know by March 8th whether my bid was accepted.  :

Yep, mine comes in the mail today in the form of land taxes. Hey, I defer 364 days a year. :D

[SwampDonkey]

Holding it hostage Bonus points if you have some tar sand

I think Biden did us a favour. I never seen much benefit of exporting unrefined oil. Refining is where the money is. ;D

[SwampDonkey]

I bumped onto something interesting here in Sweden; A company who offers to convert unused open land to forest in order to create more carbon storage. A forest owner who has unused open land (old fields etc.) can apply and get $500 per hectare to do it (it's 5000 SEK, Swedish Krona, that is approximately 500 US dollars, let's keep it simple ;D). As the cost for forest planting here varies between $800 and $1500 this is more like a discount to get it done. The forest owner also have to sign an agreement to manage the new forest with aim to store as much carbon as possible for 50 years.

The interesting part of this is that the company is run by four city boys 19-20 years old, who haven't got a clue about forestry. But they do know business as they "sell" plants to the public (city folks) for $1 per plant, incl. a GPS coordinate to show where the plant is planted. They make a deal with the forest owner to buy plants and plant them, for which he gets $500 per hectare - and pays 800 - 1500 to get it done. As the normal number of plants per hectare here is 2000 - 2500 the four lads make $2000 to $2500 per hectare minus the 500 to the forest owner!!

Well, why doesn't forestry people get such ideas?   :P

Been doing that here for almost 40 years. On public and private land. But the 'contractor' gets a lot less $$/ha than you show. Since the government provides the incentives, they control what it costs. It's around CDN $1200/ha + $100 from the land owner, that includes the seedlings, planting, scarification and herbicide. There is no top up to the contractor. ;)

50 years is interesting, that's the age at which site index is compared using tree height growth. There is nothing new there, looks like someone wants to make more money at it. I, as a landowner, won't pay more for something I'm already doing. Back to the books boys. ;D

[brianJ]

I have only seen 'organizations', such as Community Forest International, make a claim that they have sold $300,000 in carbon credits to the rest of Canada. That was off a 700 acre woodlot. That was a 'one of' as far as I have seen. There seems to be a very limited small market for it.

UPM, was a company here that continued to harvest and export wood off public land while closing down their mill they acquired from REPAP in Miramachi. They claimed over production on the market spurred the move, yet continued to harvest wood for export. : If they look good in one corner of the globe, they don't shine too brightly in others. :D

SwampDonkey with  a great example of Marxist's masquerading as an environmentalist will give you  carbon credits but the money that's just for their friends"

[mike_belben]

yup.  $300k of hot air.  the game is rigged and will stay that way until the public says 'no more.' 

[Magicman]

I still believe that it is smoke & mirrors and I have not seen any $$ but my offer/bid was accepted.  Instead of $11 per acre of Harvest Deferral Credits the accepted bid was $17 per acre for 115 acres of Harvest Deferral Credits that I offered.  This is an annual program to defer any timber harvest from April 1, 2021 until March 31, 2022.

[Southside]

Well if that takes off it won't exactly help the lumber price issue.  

[Magicman]

I don't think that it would/will have much affect.  120 accepted bids in 11 states, (Alabama, Arkansas, Florida, Georgia, Louisiana, Mississippi, Oklahoma, North Carolina, South Carolina, Tennessee, and Texas) is a very small amount of acreage taken out of the harvest for one year.  I have no idea what the total bid acreage was.  The bidding closed on March 8th so it's done for this year.