Sustainable logging

[Tinkerer]

I know this may require more details and be difficult to answer. In the back (and sometimes front!) of my mind, there is this vision of purchasing maybe 500 acres of mature forested land in WV (maybe) and sustainably logging it, milling, drying, and bringing the lumber to market. Is this a reasonable dream? 

What would be a reasonable amount of acres to sustainably produce 60k salary? Anyone doing this? Any resources to further study? 

[Texas Ranger]

Running Texas numbers, you would need a working wife and a second job.

[mike_belben]

If you bought the land cheap enough and did multiple uses, yes, it can be done absolutely for certain.  

Just selling logs off it, youll be depleting the one crop of your lifetime very quickly and probably ruining it for the next lifetime.

  A diameter limit cut removes the fastest, most robust growing stock for max cash now. With every successive DLC, the stand moves to a higher and higher stocking of trees that are slow growing and may never achieve harvest size because theyre literally just about dead.  13" diameter at 150 years old, that sorta thing.   If you buy a mature forest thats had 4 generations of DLC cutting then its one big pile of mostly stalled wood and is probably mostly low grade.. Youd be looking at a volume sawing operation with low margin.  Can you swing buying the land, a serious sawmill, loader, skidder etc etc?  Not without lotto.  Anything young and fast growing within a high graded mature forest will be twisty or shade tolerant and low value. 


Now weve got to recognize that theres a huge difference in acres, and in equipment required,  to make a living in pallet wood compared to finished, delivered, curly figured epoxy tables for the rich.  That could be as little as an alaskan mill and a serious woodshop plus talent and a market.. Willingness to travel, to do custom for fussy customers, to install etc.

   Theres a huge difference in how many loads of veneer per acre vs how many loads of crosstie per acre come out of a forest.  And in how much labor youll do to hit that same money figure in each one.  


And theres a huge difference in what the land will cost you with an even aged high value forest that grew up uncut from pasture, vs a forest where every earl, terry and jerry ray have cut over.  The locals all know where the prime tract is to try buying timber from.  Only a person with money has resisted this long, and they arent selling cheap to non-kin. When it goes for sale, it goes on the internet looking for ted turner bidding. 


The cheapest land is a clearcut. An abused one thats got a junkyard on it or an old rock quarry or powerline and bunch of fallen down trailer shacks to clean up, garbage everywhere, briar fields.  A clearcut also produces the best timber crop for the generation that gets it after you expire.   

If you insist on owning all the acres, come up with a plan where you can making a living from a lot of clearcut.   I say this because 500 acres of good timber is corporate priced and theyve got debt leveraged portfolios at almost zero interest to bid with, itll break a common man.  You will be up to your ears to pay for a large, good forest in the lumber boom, stock boom era.  the temptation to harvest it short sightedly will be very very high.  


You can grow a lot of animals to sell on 100 acres of sunshine with mild winters and good rain.  

[Tinkerer]

Thank you Texas Ranger. Yeah, kinda figured it would have to be a specific market and wouldn't work in all areas. 

Mike, sounds like you've done some research on this? It's something that I feel would be a way to grow the family stronger and closer. Less of the world and its constructs as well as good, hard, and honest work. You gave me lots to chew on! An option would be less logging and more woodworking like you said. Bring the tree into completed projects. And, hey, my kids would love to have animals around. 

[mike_belben]

When youre raising a young family ya just gotta do the best ya can with whatever comes along, as it comes along. 

Dont worry about the acreage number or the annual income.  Worry about how many hours a day you are available to your family and still putting good food on the table, while minimizing debts.  Homesteading is scaleable.   Keep expenses low.  Its much harder to make money the further you get from the interstate. 

[Tacotodd]

Yes it's easier, but more rewarding further away (for most people ;), and obviously Mike you're one of the ones like I'm saying it's more rewarding for, & me too)!

[Southside]

Running Texas numbers, you would need a working wife and a second job.

How about just getting a second wife with a job instead?  :D
Now Roxie is gonna kill me...

[barbender]

That outside the box thinking is what Iike about you, Southside!😂😂

[mike_belben]

itd be a lot more efficient if you just get a wife with a lot of land already. 

[Ron Wenrich]

I think a lot depends on what you're starting with in the timber stand.  Most land has been cut and the only sustainable part is to keep the timber buyer in business.  The forestry part is usually ignored.  You will need a decent timber inventory and appraisal to know what you are starting with, and then plan from there.

Mike has described diameter limit cuts, but I don't view them very often as a long term strategy for sustainable forest mgmt.  It does have a place and at a certain time.  I've seen some successful 2 or 3 aged stands in hardwoods.  I tend to think that's more by accident than on purpose.  

You'll have to develop your forest by putting in access in the form of roads of some type.  That will be an investment of time and capital.  It can be done on a gradual basis.  But, one of the things you're going to have to deal with is small diameter trees of low value.  You can make firewood or you can turn low value into higher value in the form of flooring.  More work, more income.  In any milling project, you have to be able to develop a market.  Without a market, you won't be very successful.

Other aspects to look at are the non-timber products you can get.  With a large land area like you're talking, there are always hunting leases.  There are sidelines like shitake mushrooms, or ginseng.  Again, it all depends on markets.  We have lots of guys that make maple syrup.  Some reading:  https://www.srs.fs.usda.gov/pubs/VT_Publications/02t3.pdf

There are some people doing what you are thinking about .   Look up Spring Green Timber Growers and see what he's doing in Wisconsin.  http://springgreentimbergrowers.com/    Another source is the Menominee Indian tribe:  https://www.mtewood.com

I whole-heartedly agree that you'll need a second income, especially to get things off the ground.

[mike_belben]

Yes, if i was not clear.. I was trying to describe how diameter limit cuts are a common harvest practice and in time tend to leave a forest that is not productive or high quality.. Its just woody and green.

The big forest a common man today can somehow afford is 70% firewood because before we were born, the mills got the best and the land collected the rest.  Outside of the woodstove belt, pulp is the only real market for this material.  Here where i live in tennessee a landowner will get 50/50 on sawlogs and as low as 5 or 10% on pulp revenue if they let whoever shows up log it off.  You need big iron to make it in pulp cutting.


A mature forest that has never been mismanaged is one that the nature conservancy organizations have tremendous systems of influence in place for, to snatch up with guaranteed loans that get them right out from under even the big timber bidding and timo organizations. We just dont get a crack at those mythical woodlots that would make an easy living.

[Kodiakmac]

A walk through my bush can be kind of depressing -  tree diseases have made all my cutting and product decisions for me.  Ash, beech, birch; big tooth aspen, butternut, are all getting hammered by one pest or another.  And the pileated woodpeckers are ruining my white cedar and porcupines are working on the hemlock.

The market for ash logs is not very good; beech is only a bit better; birch is pretty decent; but (understandably) high trucking costs really take the shine off the cheque.

So it's firewood, firewood, firewood with the dead and dying ash and the beech and birch. And my theory on firewood goes like this: you're either getting paid for your wood, or paid for your time ... but you're bloody well not getting paid for both.

Thankfully, I do have a decent local market for white cedar logs and posts.  I think I'll get my chainsaw mill going and try to get a raw plank market going for basswood and butternut.

[PoginyHill]

My father has been a professional forester for 60+years. He's had 300+ acres of woodland under his management for at least 50 yrs. During that time he's been active in timber stand improvement with commercial cuts and his own cutting of firewood and some timber. He could tell you that he has generated a decent annual return on his initial investment. The problem is that he'd have to sell the property in order to realize a lot of that gain. The income from material coming off the property is not enough to live on.

Personally, I own enough land to play on and ensure I never get bored. It is a hobby, not an income. I prefer that over golfing.

[Ron Wenrich]

Most landowners are passive landowners.  The trees are part of the landscape.  It is nearly impossible to get them to do improvement cuts unless there is a monetary incentive.  They end up falling for diameter limit cuts, and high grading.  I've seen it done by foresters that should have known better, as well as landowners that should have known better.

[Clark]

Before you click on the link to Spring Green I can summarize what he says over his 572 pages of...copy:

Harvest from your own property and produce the highest value item you can from each piece. 

It's basically what you want to do and I think he makes a case that it can be done on higher value hardwood sites. His message tends to turn into a diatribe with barbs thrown at "traditional forestry", some of which are well deserved. The outcome of his method, which he thinks everyone should adopt, is that markets would be saturated and there would be no profit in the higher value items due to competition. 

As others have stated, I think it can be done but getting off the ground will take at least 10 years. If you add in other non-timber income streams from the property, which is very possible in WV, I think you would be ahead financially. Not that there isn't money in timber but it takes decades whereas ginseng, ramps, etc can take several years.

Clark

[beenthere]

The Spring Green operation was started by Jim Birkemeier's father Bill (passed Dec. '21). Bill was an electrical engineering professor at UW-Madison. Just a very down to earth guy to know.

Bill's hobby was cutting his farm wood lot and gradually adding more and more equipment to saw, dry, machine, and turn out products for the farm. 
This operation was taken over by son Jim. A lot of volunteers and friends helped move and expand into what it is today. Riding the "earth day" movement seemed to be a sensible way to gain support and fame. 
Jim has done pretty well figuring out what "sells".  

[Ron Wenrich]

If I'm not mistaken, Jim also tried some sort of co-op movement in Wisconsin.  Organizing landowners is like herding cats.

[DMcCoy]

There is a guy here in Oregon who does exactly that.  Property was inherited from his father and they horse log it.  Runs a small sawmill and like someone else mentioned - getting maximum value off every piece sold.   The guys dad was a state or commercial forester.  His view of properly thinned was 2' gap from limb tip to limb tip- no overlapping branches(!), it is really something to see, amazing forest!  They also do not replant but allow succession reforestation.  

[mike_belben]

the future of this planet is food.  the population is exploding... with sickness from 70 years of industrial processed food.  as the awakening that the doctor cant cure you but the garden can continues to grow, it will become easier and easier for homesteaders to make it by selling food 3 seasons per year rather than trees one time every few decades.  especially with this inflation.  you buy your land once either in cash or a fixed rate mortgage.  the cost of food goes up continually so your pay raises are built in.  

there is nothing wrong with a clearcut if that is what the wood lot needs.  converting the most clapped out parts of it to croppable land is not easy but once its done, the income production becomes annual and will stay that way as long as you continue to replenish the soil instead of just reaping it off continually like big corn.

homesteading isnt really a way to make money.. its a way to stay home.  and its costs what it costs.  it is much easier to start with a chunk of money than to "pay as you go" off the land.  meaning sell your house in the hamptons and buy everything you need with that nest egg for the startup in WV.  dont think you can just move out to the woods with nothing and make a mortgage payment.  thats a road to ruin for many.  when he have money, we dont make the leanest decisions with it.  thats a skill you gain only when all the money is long gone, and its a critical skill in homesteading.  

  but if you are on the road to ruin in a city environment anyways, hey why not enjoy a better brand of ruin out in the country with your family?  its working pretty well for me even when we owe our own checking account.  life happens, make the best of it.  its not about the money.

[barbender]

Sustainable forestry...the phrase us so loaded with agenda I can hardly stand it. What it really means I think is that the public never sees a clearcut. Does that make it sustainable?

[wisconsitom]

I believe in sustainable forestry, as I'm sure do most readers of this thread.

But there's a lot in what the two guys ahead of me just wrote.

Not sure what we're gonna do...complicated picture.

[Ron Wenrich]

Sustainable forestry isn't really loaded with agenda.  You're free to do with your property whatever you like, within reason.  If you want to clearcut and grow crops, that's fine.  Lots of guys did that years ago when corn prices were high.  But, now they're not. 

When I worked a woodlot, I worked to improve the next growing cycle.  I have a choice to either carry trees that won't be worth anything in 20 yrs or to carry trees that will increase in value in 20 yrs.  I want to keep my stand density to where trees have room for crown expansion, but not so low that I have degradation in quality due to epicormic branching. 

There is a point you have to make room for the next generation in the stand.  Lots of leeway there.  I can do small clearcuts in the stand, I can do a seed tree or a shelterwood application, or I can clearcut the entire stand.  I can do nothing.  What I envision the next stand to be would be dependent on the application.  

I remember one of the local loggers doing a 14 mile clearcut ahead of a strip mine.  When they were done, they reclaimed that area by planting trees and putting soil back on.  To me, that's sustainable.  To clearcut and grow houses, not so much.

[Old Greenhorn]

A walk through my bush can be kind of depressing -  tree diseases have made all my cutting and product decisions for me.  Ash, beech, birch; big tooth aspen, butternut, are all getting hammered by one pest or another.  And the pileated woodpeckers are ruining my white cedar and porcupines are working on the hemlock.

The market for ash logs is not very good; beech is only a bit better; birch is pretty decent; but (understandably) high trucking costs really take the shine off the cheque.

So it's firewood, firewood, firewood with the dead and dying ash and the beech and birch. And my theory on firewood goes like this: you're either getting paid for your wood, or paid for your time ... but you're bloody well not getting paid for both.

Thankfully, I do have a decent local market for white cedar logs and posts.  I think I'll get my chainsaw mill going and try to get a raw plank market going for basswood and butternut.

Yeah, I get it. Do what you can with what you've got, where you are. Have you considered tapping into the mushroom growers in you area? It may not be a market for you but then again, maybe it is. It's not something most folks with woodlots think of, but growing mushrooms on logs is a fast growing trend. You will have to do some looking to find these folks and get tapped in, but they seem to have a hard time finding log suppliers. Stepping over that line and getting the network started might work out for you. I did it just about a year ago and it took some work, but I keep getting orders coming from all directions. Those small trees that will never amount to anything can turn into cash. Mushroom growers want Beech, any Oak, and a few other species in 'bolts' 4-8" diameter and 36-48" long. (pecker poles are great for this) I get 5 bucks a bolt now. DO the math, it's not bad, around 800 bucks for a cord. Yeah, there is a lot of research and 'touchy feely' involved to get started with these folks, but cash is cash. You also have to put in a lot more labor to get the wood out because you can't skid or use a grapple, but again, cash is cash, do the numbers.
 I will just say, I picked it up as a 'side thing' to fill time and now it is taking over with orders. They even came up and followed me through the woods one day to make a video as part of a project. This is not a released video, so don['t tell anybody about it, but just between me and you, here is a part they shot while I was trying to catch my breath during a cutting day.
Sustainably Sourcing Shiitake Logs - An interview with Tom Lindtveit - YouTube 

[Ianab]

"Sustainable" basically means you can keep doing what you are doing indefinitely. 

So clear cutting and building a parking lot, certainly not "sustainable".

Poor management might allow a forest to still exist, but if the tree quality drops off, so does your return, so again not "sustainable". Not as bad as the example above, as a forest still exists, but it's not economically viable any more. It could be "fixed" with some time and effort of course. 

What most people consider sustainable is careful management, where you remove the same (or maybe less) material than is growing each year (or decade, or.. ) There is no "endpoint" to the operation, This can include clear cutting, providing you have the forest type (or plantation) that's conducive to that. The point is if you project forward say 100 years, will the operation still be viable?

99% of forestry in NZ is plantation grown, so naturally it's clear cut and replanted. Some of the pine forests are on their 5th rotation, and with the improved seed stock over the years and better management they produce more now than the early rotations. They are clear cuts, but maybe 1/25th of the forest each year, with the planting crew following the logging crew around the various blocks.  This has been going on for 100 years, and is still viable, hence the "Sustainable Timber" stickers on NZ grown Pine. 

There are some small areas of privately owned native forest under "sustainable management plans", but the local one I'm familiar with is about 1,000 acres, and the harvest plan is approx 5 trees a year. (See the 400 years to regrow thing). But with milling on site and even paying for helicopter extraction of the lumber) he was probably clearing $10,000 per tree. 

From the point of view of "how many acres?" Are you selling standing trees, or are you value adding. The SpringGreen example exemplifies that. You could sell one standing tree for say $100? Or you could process that tree into an installed hardwood floor, making say $1,000 in profit. Do that each week, and you have your income, from ~50 tree harvested a year, needing maybe 100 acres? If you are selling standing timber you need to harvest  10X as many, so maybe 1,000 acres? You need some more precise numbers on log value and growth rates for your location, but you get the idea. 

[mike_belben]

Sustainable has to consider ecological and economical.  Nature decided american chestnut and ash were on borrowed time.  

With the cost of land today, a poor quality forest is not economically sustainable, and thus is also on borrowed time.