Large Logging Job - Advice needed

[Airman89]

I have a tree service that I want to turn into a logging company once I have enough equipment. Right now I only have 1 knuckle boom log truck. Yesterday I got a call from a guy who said he had a lot of hardwood trees to sell (black walnut, cherry, oak, etc.). When I got there he showed me 20 acres that he wants completely cleared out. I'm a small operation so I'm looking for advice on how I should handle this.

Should I call another company and give them the job but ask for a finders fee of some sort?

Should I bring someone else in and just do all the hauling with my log truck?

The job is way more than I realized but I want to be involved and making money from it I just don't have a big enough operation to clear 20 acres of dense woods.

Thanks in advance!

Adam

[Puffergas]

How long do you have to clear cut it?

How would you market the logs?

Would you be paid to clear cut it or do you have to buy it out right?

[BargeMonkey]

I'm not sure what state your in but the word "Clearcut" is nothing to play around with unless you have approval, over 1 acres of disturbance is federal law not state. I have a very nice ticket which wasnt a couple thousand to prove this. 
 I would know your markets before you start buying wood, know where you can send it it what the margins are, everyone thinks wood is worth a fortune because of the TV shows, 3/4 of the jobs I walk have been high graded so when you tell the landowner X amount of money they just look at you in disbelief, everyone see's trees and not grade or quality. 
 Only bring someone in if you can make it work for you, another guy I deal with from OUT of town and I work together on jobs, here locally if someone can pull a job out from under you they will, I've seen it happen. You can cut alot of wood with a cable skidder and a chainsaw, upgrade from there. 

[mike_belben]

Can you personally tell a 3 side clear premium white oak stave buttlog from a pallet grade poplar or black oak?  

If you cant and the landowner wants paid, on shares is the ONLY way you should consider it so that if the wood is junk, you dont owe him.. You both get a poor return from the small payments the mill gives split to the both of you,  and YOU learn the ropes.  DO NOT submit bids.. That is a game for pros.  

I highly suggest a dozer first.  You have a knuckleboom or else id have said crawler loader since loading is a big issue for most and KB's are only good for one thing, just like a skidder.  But dozers and crawler loaders and excavators are multi purpose tools so if logging doesnt pan out you arent stuck with single purpose iron.  


Difference between a logger and an excavation contractor is that a logger has to pay for wood and a dirt guy usually gets it free, plus is paid for the dirt work.  Plenty of loggers have to build roads at their own expense AND buy the wood.  If you get a dozer and do some ponds, pads and roads youll get free wood to haul to the mills and truly see what it brings.  

Some lots are worth nothing and some are magic but ya need some background to know.   D5 and a root rake can make some coin.  Winch is nice but on a clearcut you could make due with a chain off the blade since nothing on site is sacred.

It would be wise to go to mills and get price and cut sheets FIRST.. And realize most logs will scale out at the low end of the spectrum, not the high.  Youll have a lot of pulp too. 3-10 loads of pulp for 1 load of sawlogs ill bet.  Find the pulp or firewood market before you agree also because itll be everywhere before you know it, high as u can pile. 

[Southside]

Well your question would be like me asking you how I could go about using my skills and equipment to make money in the tree service world because people ask me all the time to remove trees from their yard - probably because they were shocked at the quote you gave them.  

It's a completely different game.  First, you need to look into the laws in your State and County regarding harvest rules, permitting, notifications, transporting logs across jurisdiction lines.  EAB, Gypsy Moth, Thousand Canker come to mind along with the certifications and paperwork trail needed to legally sell some species.  

Do you have access to a surveyor?  Can you do your own title and deed research to make sure the guy selling you the timber can legally sell it?  

Down this way, 20 AC of decent wood will be in the neighborhood of 300,000 BF of wood.  What can your truck haul - 2,000 ft?  That's 150 truck loads.  To paraphrase Chief Broady from Jaws - "You're gonna need a bigger truck".  

Maybe you could find someone you can trust and work the job together.  I am assuming you are a good feller, that is critical with grade logs, but just as important is knowing where to buck them, and it takes experience to get an eye for that.  

With some ground work I suspect you could hire a skidder on a MBF or ton basis so you have a set cost, same with additional trucking.

Lot of low grade / pulp in there?  Look to bring in a buncher for a couple of days and get all that on the ground in a hurry giving you space to drop the grade wood.  Just make sure you have a home for that pulp - the markets are tight today.  

Can it be done - of course.  Can one guy do it, without a mechanical operation and experience?  Not successfully would be my opinion.  

[mike_belben]

I agree with southside but will toss this in so as not to sound totally discouraging.  

Lots of folks these days owe more than a nice house is worth on student loans and havent even got the job yet.    Youre in logging school when the check from the mill is less than your cost to bring the logs in.  But hey, you dont have to do it wrong for 4 or 8 years.  You may be able to smarten up in a week if youre sharp enough.   You probably already know all about the workers comp, taxes and compliance headaches from your tree service, its not any better in logging.


Its just another business like trucking or manufacturing or equipment repair.  It can buy you a house or cost you one.  If you WANT to do it, give it a shot.  Youre probably capable, as its more luck and perspiration than pedigree and brilliance.  Timber shod a lot of little feet.  Best of luck and be careful. 

[nativewolf]

My advice may be slightly different.  I'd say go for it.  The key issue being that the real difference in a good vs great vs poor logger is often down to 2 things.  What does the site look like afterwards and how good a job did you do selling the logs.  At 20 acres of good hardwood you should have a logger willing to partner up.  Get connected to the state forestry folks and they'll give you a list.  Go chase down the list, loggers often don't like to deal with people (at least the guys working small and willing to take the 20 acre jobs).  Go see past jobs.  See how long it took them to do a job.  A 20 acre clearcut is best done by a combination of machine and people (in most areas) of the midwest/midatlantic (just guessing based on species).  I might even guess NY or Indiana/ohio but that's a wild one  .  

Ok, moving on if you guys are comfortable felling trees the real difference is speed and attention to log quality vs working around structure.  Knowing how to cut good logs out of a so so tree is not rocket science but experience really really helps.

All that said loggers, most of them, are terrible at maximizing revenue off a tract.  Terrible.  There are log markets and buyers on top of buyers and they are often niche.  Some small amish mills will take trees with a 10" top and nothing but knots holding wood together.  Some mills only want 14" small end diameter 1st and 2nd logs but will be glad to pay you 2nd log pricing on a veneer log (say $0.80 vs $2 per board foot)- at 200,000 bdft the difference is astounding. 

Know that some species can be very very hard to sell, Red Oaks this summer became unsellable and only good butt logs are moving now.  How do you sell the rest of a 60' 18" diameter log?  You sell it as a tie log like every other poor logger so the Tie log market gets swamped and pricing there is in the toilet.  

So, what to do?  Sign the contract and ppartner with a logger that has equipment you need but more importantly has the skill on how to merchandize the products.  Then while they are working go get on the phone and find markets.  

The buyers you need to find are:

• Pallet mills (junk wood)- by ton or bdft.
• Firewood dealers-buy by cords or tons or trailer loads
• Railroad tie log plants- buy by ton or board feet
• Pulp mills-the logger may have contracts to ship already in place.  If not ..this becomes a challenge.Buy by ton.
• Amish mills cutting oil services timber mats and bridge timbers (flooded market but if you have some they will buy products others won't-go meet them, get them to walk you through log yard, find out what they like).
• Export Buyers-need these even though the Tarriff wars have done more to harm loggers than most folks.  Exports of hardwood is still big and if you have good logs exporters pay more than regular mills.  Find a log buyer that is an exporter...again find out what he's looking for and what his pricing is and what scale he uses (doyle, scribner, international).
• Veneer buyers-can be helpful but really only if you have just super wood. 
• Sawmills-last and most generic.  Every logger knows these guys so does the state forestry folk.

The difference between a great logger and a good/poor quality one is that they know the whole list.  There are very few great loggers as most loggers spend more time cutting and shipping than working the phone to find buyers.  Like any other job selling logs means understanding what the buyers want.  Constantly ask what they need, where is pricing, etc.  Get them to talk.  

You might make only 10% or 5% on this first project and that may or maynot be consequential to you.  Deciding that in a low risk event, great.  Lots of loggers operate their whole life on not much more than 5% after you cost everything out.  Many make 0% and only take a little salary.  

You can do it, everyone else has given good advice my suggestion would be to just outsource the grunt work aspect of it and focus on the selling.  Once you understand what the buyers want you'll do a much better job actually logging and can more effectively compete and leave behind happy customers.

[mike_belben]

What NW posted is a grand slam IMO.  I logged for a very short time with just a saw, dozer and gooseneck truck without even bunks.  I did it because i had to, not wanted to.  

I was told $1000 an acre is the going rate and i definitely believe it by looking at local practices, bucking ever stick on a bunk saw at 10'6 from a cab and tossing the rest to pulp, for instance.  

I knew nothing and no one so i wasnt bound by the constraints of any old timer or boss. I went after best money for every fiber and found the top buyer before i cut, then only cut exactly as they wanted.  

It turned out $4k an acre.  Slow, hard work but it fed us on a small footprint of land for a summer.

[ehp]

I cut a couple or more clear cuts a year, I make my most money doing clear cuts . Big question for me would be beside land owner has all the correct permits is what does CLEAR CUT mean, Are you to just drop the trees and pull out what you want, or are you to clear everything including stumps and all tops brush . That part right there changes everything , that one takes time and adds a lot of cost to you. Just because you work by yourself donot be afraid of a job like this , 20 ac is a big clear cut but you will be surprised at how fast you can dump trees

[ppine]

Lots of questions on this one. 
How are you to get paid?  Do you own the stumpage?  What is your haul distance?
Are permits in place?  Has the site had a timber survey?  How much clean up do you have to do?
Who is the sale administrator?  What relationship do you have with them?

Once I figured out the answers to these questions, I would find a skilled and experienced logging company to team with.  Then you can start learning the difference between being a tree company  (one tree at a time) and a logging company ( a forest at a time).

[Puffergas]

Interesting that the OP has not stopped by.