Feller Buncher costs?

[Old Greenhorn]

Well this idea will likely go into the 'good intentions, but bad idea' file shortly when reality becomes apparent, but the only stupid question is the one you don't ask. So I will ask it and all the smart guys can tell me why it's not gonna happen, and I will be smarter in the end, then we can move on... :D
 I spent an afternoon looking over a TSI job yesterday and walking the property with the landowner and understanding his plan. Most of the work is removing some dead ash, taking out junk trees, releasing to nice pretty mature trees, opening up the floor to the sun for growth, etc. There are  3 or 4 work plots and a lot of it can (will) be done by hand (with equipment support for moving logs and piling, chipping junk, etc.) over a period of time. This is not a 'get in and get out job', it is a long term management plan. However, there is one section that has a LOT of small and medium sized growth, it is choked with trees from 4-12" diameter hemlocks mostly and some scraggly hardwoods and in this one area MOST of the trees are coming out except for strong healthy desirable trees (not many of those). The ground in here has been dark for decades, so opening it up to get some sun in and allowing hardwoods to propagate is part of the goal. It is about 4 acres or so where the end result is to just have some good trees widely spaced for recreation and habitat. Possibly planting field grass for ground cover in a few years.
 So my question: What would be a reasonable cost to have a feller buncher come in and drop/pile all this junk? The cutter would not need to do any skidding, stumping, or other work, just cut and pile to make himself room to work. The keeper trees would be pre-marked and everything else goes. The ground is relatively flat with a little roll to it, but not steep challenges in anyway. Very nice ground and not wet. This would cut the timeline on this section down from many months of handwork to just a couple of weeks. I know of local machine that is not actively logging right now and will ask him what he thinks. It's a long shot because this is not prime work for the machine, but it might be the right machine for the job to get it done.
 I am just trying to give the landowner alternatives to hit his plan goals and not break the bank. He has some beautiful property and a good plan, this would move the plan along faster and maybe help the feller buncher owner put some work through through this machine he just got. He could also use some practice time with the new machine, his first. 
 I have no idea how fast somebody can blow through 4 acres, it could be a couple of days, or a couple of weeks. I want to give good advice to this landowner and possibly take advantage of a machine that has no true logging work booked for it yet.
 Thoughts? Costs? Length of time?

[Skeans1]

In the harvester thinning I can normally do something like that in a day.

[Old Greenhorn]

I was kind of guessing that. This owner is new and I was watching him get used to the machine a couple of weeks ago, he needs a practice plot that is not good grade timber where cutting mistakes don't hurt the output or damage the machine as he learns and adjusts, so this would be a good setup for him. However he also has to make some money on the machine, so we need to have the work laid out so that he comes off fairly. For a single day, not sure it is worth it, but frankly, looking at it, I don't see him doing it in a day unless he was a top notch operator, which he will be someday not too far off, but right now there is that curve. There are other very useful things we can add to make it a job worth doing, there is work on other plots on the same property that machine would be perfect for. It's a dance and I am trying to pick music that everyone can dance to and end up happy.

[HemlockKing]

Make sure to leave a couple hemlocks to release , they grow into nice beautiful trees  ;D. I wish we had more around my county, I dug some up out of a ditch of another county last summer and planted them on my property, hopefully they prosper 

[Old Greenhorn]

No worries there. Hemlocks are like weeds here and that property has some beauts. But they throw a lot of shade and propagate like mad. In some  spots I have to clear there are 6-16' stems less than 2' apart, hundreds of them. Lots of dominant trees in there.

[mike_belben]

Since theres no boardfeet to measure that leaves you negotiating a rate.. Either hourly, daily or by the total job.  I think a job quote would be best so the operator doesnt dilly dally up a huge bill for your landowner.


I cant say what your area is willing to pay for a day rate on heavy equipment construction.  Bigrigs try to make a grand a day or better.  

[Old Greenhorn]

Since theres no boardfeet to measure that leaves you negotiating a rate.. Either hourly, daily or by the total job.  I think a job quote would be best so the operator doesnt dilly dally up a huge bill for your landowner.

No doubt Mike, but I was asking what folks who know would think reasonable. It would have to be a quoted job or its a no-go. Other logistics might be ruling it out now, but I will pursue it to a logical end.

[Wudman]

I've been looking at this crappy hardwood around the Piedmont of Virginia and contemplating the same thing.  No one around here is doing any TSI work in hardwood.  Part of the problem is that it is not economically feasible as a stand alone practice.  Nobody wants to dig into his pocket to pay for it.  I've thought about it, and I believe a tracked skid-steer with a felling head (an accumulating shear would probably be the most cost effective) of some type could fit in a system.  The machine could be doing something else at other times to help pay for itself.  

Back to your question at hand.  In pine, my operators can cover 8 - 10 acres per day.  This is uniform, plantation wood.  I would think an operator should be able to get through your 4 acres in a day.  Moving cost would probably be about the same as your operating cost for the job.  I would think that someone should be able to price your job in the $125 - $150 / hour range in this area.  Getting them to move there may be a different story.  

Wudman  

[Southside]

Have to second what Wudman says about the sheer / skid steer set up. My hot saw buncher doesn't like small, short, spindly stuff. Can't grab it so it just sort of half mows it down mostly. 

Honestly it isn't a clean job at all. 

[mike_belben]

I've been looking at this crappy hardwood around the Piedmont of Virginia and contemplating the same thing.  No one around here is doing any TSI work in hardwood.  Part of the problem is that it is not economically feasible as a stand alone practice.  Nobody wants to dig into his pocket to pay for it.  I've thought about it, and I believe a tracked skid-steer with a felling head (an accumulating shear would probably be the most cost effective) of some type could fit in a system.  The machine could be doing something else at other times to help pay for itself.  

I am right there with you.  The right skidsteer attachment could change much of the timber that our kids and grandkids find.  Look what the mulcher head did in just 10 years.  
Im working on it.. Developing exceptional prototypes takes a long time and many revisions. 

[chep]

We hire contract buncher fairly regularly.  I think a decent op would have it cut in 1 to 2 days. 200$/hr plus moving the machine to the job is what to expect. At an hourly rate the op should be worried about quality work not hammering out wood.

[mike_belben]

Wow that is some substantial cheese. 

[chevytaHOE5674]

200 seems like a lot but subtract fuel, insurance, operater wages, depreciation,  etc and suddenly there isn't as much "cheese" as you think.

[mike_belben]

Im very fluent in the cost side.. Just didnt think the demand side would bear that rate. 

[Southside]

Don't forget about the teeth. Cutting junk like that you are likely to hit sand / dirt / rock. Easy to spend $1K on a set of carbides. 

[Old Greenhorn]

The demand side won't if there isn't a profit or at least income at the end, like timber sales. This is why the average landowner cannot get big equipment to come in and manage small parcels that don't result in some good wood to be sold. $200./hr may be reasonable, but I would have to run some numbers and see if if it would be cost efficient for this landowner. There are other 'intangibles' such as the ability to schedule the work between or adjacent to other local jobs and a lot of flexibility on the exact timeframe. Keeps the machine working when it might sit idle between jobs. It is a bit of an academic discussion at this point, but still I'd like to gain the education because it might turn into something. Playing phone and text tag with the guy all day now.
 I am not familiar with the skidsteer/shear operation, can somebody point me to a reference? I don't even know if we have those around here.

[mike_belben]

Skid steer shearing bunchers are pretty much obsolete by now.. The barko 1080 was a purpose built monsterous feller but they were poorly executed.  It hasnt really been revisted to the full extent now that some of the tracked carriers have so much better "offroad" capability.  The 1080 was an overweight wheel machine with extremely bad ground disturbance, ground pressure and tippiness once it had a mouthful of tree.  


Then youve got the whole splintered butt issue.  A bells with a barsaw put the barko 1080 to shame but that has its limits too.  And both were sorta rare one trick ponies, only on logging jobs and not so great at it.  The new CTLs are many trick ponies, extremely plentiful and competing for jobs all over. an affordable barsaw felling head attachment is all thats really needed to make a bunch of new TSI contractors.  Sorta like the mulching heads were all that was needed to launch that service industry.  

[Bruno of NH]

I have a shear head for big Bob but no tracks
The ground would have to be very solid.
If Bob went deep it would be hard to get out.
I think a track skid would work well at it.

[barbender]

Ryan's makes the dangle head barsaw attachments for excavators and skid steers, but they want so much for them I'd just go buy a Bell and have a dedicated machine myself🤷🏽‍♂️ Greenhorn, unless you find a buncher that needs work like the guy you're talking about, I just don't see anyone being interested in a one day job even at $200/hr. There are just too many costs to get absorbed into a small job like that. Our bunchers get moved to jobs where they work a week or more at a time, even if we did move to a one day job somewhere it would be for someone we had a relationship with (doing someone a favor). The American logging industry is just not set up for doing TSI work, all our equipment can do is lose money at it. The Euros have all kinds of equipment geared towards it though- tractor mounted energy wood shears and such. I think in your situation, probably the best chance of getting it done is with 2 guys working together. One on a chainsaw, the other running a cable skidder to pull all the hung stems down. Or, a shear equipped track skid steer would make quick work of it.

[BargeMonkey]

 150-200 an hr is right in the ballpark. Theres a guy in Greene County who has a hotsaw mounted on a large bobcat, the machine has like 500hrs on it and looks like its been thru a war, anything over a 10" tree it likes to roll over. Forester here has a Bells 3 wheeler he does TSI with and its handy, you can find one of them cheap if you hunt around, i passed one up at the dealer in MA a few yrs ago for 7500 working machine. 

[mike_belben]

It is much easier to do TSI on the regen of a recent clearcut with just a brush saw and leave everything to rot, than it is to repair a highgraded stand of mature wood where its mostly large standing junk.  Then you have that guilt trip about leaving firewood on the ground and start stepping over dollars to pick up pennies trying to get the firewood out. 


 If youve got the equipment to fell and extract logs then youre losing money to pittle with TSI when you could be harvesting sawlogs.  Its quite the catch 22. Like why grow trees when you can grow subdivisions?   You have to be in it for some other reason besides money. 


I think a 40ish hp 4wd tractor with a loader, a frostbite or stump bucket grapple and 3pt forestry winch is a pretty good setup for most of it.  The winch can bunch logs to a trail or extract the stuck tractor.  Buck with a chainsaw and load logs on a homemade bunk trailer with the FEL to keep from scarring everything up by skidding whole tree. 


Unfortunately theres just no money in TSI typically..  so you either have to luck your way into equipment, have a good job/start rich and do it as a hobby or build your own from junk. 

[BargeMonkey]

TSI done right can really improve a stand, but you get into the money end of it where it doesn't pay. The average guy here wont cut firewood or pulpwood in volume, and the cycle of highgrading continues. 

[Ed_K]

 Check with Duhamal in Canada, Annie-May would be interested in 8"-12" if there's a tt load. I've been out of logging for 5 yrs now and she's still txt me to send hemlock.

[Firewoodjoe]

I can't see where the timber will pay for anything. At least a very small amount. Which sounds like you guys know that. I wouldn't bother cutting it at all. I'd hire a mulcher head type cutter and just mow everything then be done. Looks nice and no work involved just money. Let the bugs have it. 

[Old Greenhorn]

Well as usual, some of you guys are reading a lot more into the OP than was stated. :D ;D There is no timber sale, firewood sale or any sale. This is strictly an improvement project. As I told the feller buncher owner/op, "just cut 'em and stack 'em and get it done. We will do the rest, no other equipment required". The fist thing he asked me when I finally got him on the phone last night was "How many truck loads of firewood can I get out to make it worthwhile?" ;D "OK, let me explain this again...".
He quoted me about $3k/day which puts it a little out of play, but then said, 'well lets go take a look at it'. I don't think so. I believe he is looking for the golden goose and is not hearing what I am saying. I am not bringing him on the property because I don't want to waste his time, mine or the landowners. My responsibility is to the landowner and doing the job he wants. OTOH hand that shear idea on a tracked skidsteer is probably right sized for this job and would do a fine job. I found another guy I know and it turns out he has one. So I will look into that. Again its a dance just to get the time to talk with him without distraction. Anybody who is good is very busy and I heard his log truck go past the house at 5:30 this morning.
 Anyway, we have time on this and I am learning as we go. I didn't think the Feller Buncher would work out, but you never know until you ask, right? We have a LOT of other work to do before we get to that section, probably next year.