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Author Topic: Obsessed w. Yellow-Cedar in eastern Quebec  (Read 1152 times)

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Offline seedling

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Obsessed w. Yellow-Cedar in eastern Quebec
« on: March 01, 2021, 10:05:06 PM »
greetings

I'm new here, this is my second posting, the first one appears to have timed out.

At 77 years of age, while doing research to plant 250 trees last summer, I became OBSESSED with the idea of migrating yellow-cedar to my supposedly hostile eastern Quebec near 58n66w (many samples ARE growing here but all too far for me to visit). Whatwith global warming and all, the lowest winter temps are now about -15c instead of -25c, and there are 3-4 secluded, protected, and wetter corners on my land where I think I might be successful. Last year I bought some seeds, half of them are out in cold-bed waiting for the snow to melt, the other half failed to germinate when potted. I'm NOT optimistic.

I'd like to clarify some basics before taking shovel again this spring, which I will even if the odds be absolute zero (I happen to be like that):

Is the weeping variety less viable, is it also shorter?

Does anyone know of a Canadian retail source for seedlings? I wanna avoid import red-tape with Agriculture-Canada, and wholesalers don't really wanna waste time with retail accounts.

The species seems to in danger, habitat is both dying out and being overrun while the seeds (according to my theory) can't migrate without help to other just as ideal habitats but too far away. Am I full of it?

Thanks for any help!

BTW how do I set to be emailed when my postings are replied to?

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Offline SwampDonkey

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Re: Obsessed w. Yellow-Cedar in eastern Quebec
« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2021, 06:39:07 AM »
With yellow cedar (Chamaecyparis nootkatensis  or Cupressus nootkatensis due to findings in 2010 in molecular genetics), they need lots of moisture, not tolerant of heat, viable seed in mature cones is very low. I wish you success, but I would be prepared for disappointment. ;)

You'd probably have to make contact with these folks.

Forest Nursery Association of BC
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Offline seedling

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Re: Obsessed w. Yellow-Cedar in eastern Quebec
« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2021, 07:41:24 AM »
With yellow cedar (Chamaecyparis nootkatensis  or Cupressus nootkatensis due to findings in 2010 in molecular genetics), they need lots of moisture, not tolerant of heat, viable seed in mature cones is very low. I wish you success, but I would be prepared for disappointment. ;)

You'd probably have to make contact with these folks.

Forest Nursery Association of BC
Thanks for the input, the link too. The coastal bedrock under my land is broken in places with the inland end sometimes lower. Plus a ravine. In these locations there are healthy trees in microclimates partly because moisture is finding an easy route to surface. The other 90% of the land is in hay production. In the ravine fresh water seeping up is never frozen, not even at -20c plus there is a good yard of snow cover. In addition to mini forests in the 3-4 depressions the trees also provide wind protection. Closer to the sea dessication haunts red-pines 1 year out of 10, from which they recover the next year.  Finally I am prepared for failure but sofar I haven't been able to fail even, not with a live seedling anyway, I have yet to have a single viable shoot to plant :).
My plan would be to scatter seedlings at different distances into these micro-climate depressions and let them grow according to the suitability of conditions, if grow they would.
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Offline saskatchewanman

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Re: Obsessed w. Yellow-Cedar in eastern Quebec
« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2021, 11:21:37 AM »
When attempting to move species around, finding suitable seed sources and seedlings is often difficult. When extending a range in a changing climate, sourcing plants and seeds at the margins of existing distribution is a useful start. In other cases finding sources that came from a similar environment or latitude is a good strategy.

Plant enough individuals to sample genetic diversity. Planting a single tree that subsequently dies only tells you that individual tree was not suitable. How many... 100 or more is better. Also try several seed sources if possible. 

I see that PRT currently has 1100 surplus Yellow Cedar seedlings available in Campbell River BC. You could try them but shipping would be expensive

Offline seedling

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Re: Obsessed w. Yellow-Cedar in eastern Quebec
« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2021, 12:06:31 PM »
When attempting to move species around, finding suitable seed sources and seedlings is often difficult. When extending a range in a changing climate, sourcing plants and seeds at the margins of existing distribution is a useful start. In other cases finding sources that came from a similar environment or latitude is a good strategy.

Plant enough individuals to sample genetic diversity. Planting a single tree that subsequently dies only tells you that individual tree was not suitable. How many... 100 or more is better. Also try several seed sources if possible.

I see that PRT currently has 1100 surplus Yellow Cedar seedlings available in Campbell River BC. You could try them but shipping would be expensive
Thanks for chiming in, I've written PRT already and to other wholesalers too, one of the problems is industrial boxes of 200+. Otherwise I agree with everything you say.
The guy who sold me the seeds wrote to say that what I planted in cold-bed last summer might just produce a few viable seedlings. One thing is sure, if any of what I plant here grows at all I'll try to get seeds from such survivors ..though my number of years remaining is like toilet paper, close to the end it rolls off awful fast :)
Are there any growing in your neck of the woods, I mean of the wheatfields?
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Offline saskatchewanman

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Re: Obsessed w. Yellow-Cedar in eastern Quebec
« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2021, 01:07:37 PM »
PRT also has a 10000 seedling minimum order size although if you were to buy the whole lot?

I tried the 10000 minimum a few years ago. My knees and back argued with me for the rest of the summer :D.

Pinyon and Ponderosa pine are more my environment here. I live an hour north of the MT border but have more land 400 km NE. There I am trying a variety of species the found in northern MN and west ON. I also have problems getting seeds and plants.

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Re: Obsessed w. Yellow-Cedar in eastern Quebec
« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2021, 04:00:09 PM »
PRT also has a 10000 seedling minimum order size although if you were to buy the whole lot?

I tried the 10000 minimum a few years ago. My knees and back argued with me for the rest of the summer :D.

Pinyon and Ponderosa pine are more my environment here. I live an hour north of the MT border but have more land 400 km NE. There I am trying a variety of species the found in northern MN and west ON. I also have problems getting seeds and plants.
Me I'm on a retirement 30 acres, no 10,000 orders here 8)
but even 250 or so (mixed) that I planted last summer made me feel like after a football game in high school!
There's a local nursery and they produce outstanding seedlings, everything I buy from them grows like weed, cheap too, but they only produce the sure-fire species for this climate. Siberian cedar (pinus sibirica) for example I had to get by mail and was lucky cause that nursery stopped production right after. Planted about 50 of them, next up is this cupressus nootkatensis  ..I'm a sucker for what's impossible and have no idea what made me literally fall for this tree, never even having seen one in real life.

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Re: Obsessed w. Yellow-Cedar in eastern Quebec
« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2021, 04:28:45 PM »
I have seen them, on the BC coastal Islands. I was timber cruiser out there for 3 years among other duties. Only place I seen small ones was on open swamp where we landed choppers in. Never seen any in the understory of big trees. It was all old growth timber I worked in. When you chop the green stem of the tree with an axe you get the smell of parsnip.
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Offline seedling

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Re: Obsessed w. Yellow-Cedar in eastern Quebec
« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2021, 08:52:56 PM »
I have seen them, on the BC coastal Islands. I was timber cruiser out there for 3 years among other duties. Only place I seen small ones was on open swamp where we landed choppers in. Never seen any in the understory of big trees. It was all old growth timber I worked in. When you chop the green stem of the tree with an axe you get the smell of parsnip.
Hmmm, seeing that they can live to 1500 years, a mature yellow-cedar forest would have little need for new growth. I'm just wondering if that might be another clue about the difficult germinating process, among others related to a very narrow micro-climate niche, the tree survived just fine without natural selection having to work too hard. This needs a pro forester to answer, and I ain't one.
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Re: Obsessed w. Yellow-Cedar in eastern Quebec
« Reply #9 on: March 07, 2021, 03:34:52 AM »
It's even difficult to get yellow cypress lumber. It is all export, mostly Asia. It is very rot resistant. Probably the best there is. They would even use any old snag that was solid and standing for lumber. I had to tally them on the cruise sheet for potential wood. ;D
“No amount of belief makes something a fact.” James Randi

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Re: Obsessed w. Yellow-Cedar in eastern Quebec
« Reply #10 on: March 07, 2021, 10:26:30 AM »
It's even difficult to get yellow cypress lumber. It is all export, mostly Asia. It is very rot resistant. Probably the best there is. They would even use any old snag that was solid and standing for lumber. I had to tally them on the cruise sheet for potential wood. ;D
I tried to get some once for a porch, the cost would have ben prohibitive with the transportation from BC so I instead got a sawmill around Eeel-River-Junction to cut me a few pallets worth of "real 2x6" planks of eastern cedar. Alaskan cedar being an extremely profitable wood I can't figure out why both NB and Quebec are not spending millions to domesticate it. With todays biotechnology it should be a no brainer, of course for any investment lately not only profit but instant profit has to be assured >:(

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Re: Obsessed w. Yellow-Cedar in eastern Quebec
« Reply #11 on: March 07, 2021, 12:28:03 PM »
SD you get around!

Have you thought of trying Western red cedar from some of the interior BC sources?

The bad thing about old growth timber is that its takes a long time to produce :D

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Re: Obsessed w. Yellow-Cedar in eastern Quebec
« Reply #12 on: March 07, 2021, 12:43:58 PM »
Publication from Scotland on growing exotic species for timber with wonderful pictures.

Using Alternative Conifer Species for Productive Forestry in Scotland - Scottish Forestry

In the coming decades the demand for wood will be insatiable. Hopefully we don't destroy the planet even more trying to meet demand.

Grow trees!

Offline seedling

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Re: Obsessed w. Yellow-Cedar in eastern Quebec
« Reply #13 on: March 07, 2021, 06:35:43 PM »
Publication from Scotland on growing exotic species for timber with wonderful pictures.

Using Alternative Conifer Species for Productive Forestry in Scotland - Scottish Forestry

In the coming decades the demand for wood will be insatiable. Hopefully we don't destroy the planet even more trying to meet demand.

Grow trees!
yes trees!
interesting doc, they advise tro plan for a warming period, exactly what I'm doing.

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Offline seedling

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Re: Obsessed w. Yellow-Cedar in eastern Quebec
« Reply #14 on: March 07, 2021, 06:37:44 PM »
Publication from Scotland on growing exotic species for timber with wonderful pictures.

Using Alternative Conifer Species for Productive Forestry in Scotland - Scottish Forestry

In the coming decades the demand for wood will be insatiable. Hopefully we don't destroy the planet even more trying to meet demand.

Grow trees!
yes trees!<br --Photos MUST be in the Forestry Forum gallery!!!!!--/fztrtzvr
interesting doc, they advise tro plan for a warming period, exactly what I'm doing.

Who, has loved us more?

Offline seedling

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Re: Obsessed w. Yellow-Cedar in eastern Quebec
« Reply #15 on: March 07, 2021, 06:43:28 PM »
Publication from Scotland on growing exotic species for timber with wonderful pictures.

Using Alternative Conifer Species for Productive Forestry in Scotland - Scottish Forestry

In the coming decades the demand for wood will be insatiable. Hopefully we don't destroy the planet even more trying to meet demand.

Grow trees!
yes trees!<br --Photos MUST be in the Forestry Forum gallery!!!!!--/fztrtzvr
interesting doc, they advise tro plan for a warming period, exactly what I'm doing.
<br --Photos MUST be in the Forestry Forum gallery!!!!!--/fztrtzvr
I ran into a snag here trying to link to an html document on my own web site that has links to others with images as well as some images of my own. It all bombed. What gives? I cannot upload other peoples' images and certainly will not relinquish rights to my own.
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Offline SwampDonkey

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Re: Obsessed w. Yellow-Cedar in eastern Quebec
« Reply #16 on: March 08, 2021, 05:33:01 AM »
This is pretty much as old growth as it gets. ;D

western red cedar 1000's of years old



northern (eastern) white cedar.  100's of years old.

I can drive an hour away and find these old cedar, most left standing on clearcuts. Our white cedar is grossly undervalued. Now most cedar mills around here have all dried up and blown away. Trees this size are more upland, growing in with red maples, yellow birch and red spruce. Those broom size stems are maples.

“No amount of belief makes something a fact.” James Randi

Offline seedling

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Re: Obsessed w. Yellow-Cedar in eastern Quebec
« Reply #17 on: March 10, 2021, 08:58:59 AM »
I see that PRT currently has 1100 surplus Yellow Cedar seedlings available in Campbell River BC. You could try them but shipping would be expensive
...done, thanks a gig for the ref!!!!!!
I'm expecting delivery in a week or a little more.
Did some reading about keeping them dormant and many experts advise against the fridge, or make a complicated process out of that option. There may be frost on ocsasion in May still, certainly in April as the snow retreats.

What are my options?  What if I get some tiny pots and plantthem on arrival indoors for the roughly 1 month to start them rooting before the final move outdoors?



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Offline seedling

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Re: Obsessed w. Yellow-Cedar in eastern Quebec
« Reply #18 on: March 10, 2021, 09:11:56 AM »
northern (eastern) white cedar.  100's of years old.

I can drive an hour away and find these old cedar, most left standing on clearcuts. Our white cedar is grossly undervalued. Now most cedar mills around here have all dried up and blown away. Trees this size are more upland, growing in with red maples, yellow birch and red spruce. Those broom size stems are maples.

(Image hidden from quote, click to view.)
Amazing, are you saying that there are still trees of that size in NB today?

It's true that the white cedar is undervalued, or rather under-marketed. I remember about 15 years ago Quebec merchants stopped stocking it because too many clueless morons were bringing dried-out 2x3's back for being 'crooked'!  It bacame a real problem in 'the city', and if you can't market it there with the large-surface lumber depots then you might as well kiss it, or that's what I was told.

Another issue that I had was the lack of cedar particle board 1/2" to 1-1/2" thick. Many years ago I wrote to a few manufacturers suggesting such a product, of which I would certainly have bought many and regularly, but I got the same response from them too: no market in the city >:(
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Offline saskatchewanman

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Re: Obsessed w. Yellow-Cedar in eastern Quebec
« Reply #19 on: March 10, 2021, 09:56:36 AM »
Congratulations on your new baby yellow cedars! I have found PRT trees to be exceptional in quality. I normally have >95% survive the initial planting.

Are not the trees in cold storage and you can wait a few weeks to ship? 

PRT seedling awaken extremely rapidly once taken out of cold storage. I often see white root tips beginning growth within a week of thawing. If I had to deal with then I would unpack them, standing the bundles upright in plastic tubs or paisl and cover the root bundles with moist peat moss and store in a cool place. Not sure what temps are in your area but a couple of degrees -/+ freezing would be best. Monitor carefully and plant as soon as possible.

This is an interesting Canadian fed gov site that runs species adaptions through various climate change models and predicts future ranges. Although for long lived species like trees, climate change is a trend and process not an end point.

Canada's Plant Hardiness Site


Good luck with your trees. 

Denis


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