Log Furniture - Dead Standing Trees vs. Green

FrankLad · October 30, 2006, 02:47:40 PM

Quotebeenthere: For strength, I might consider placing a dowel at 90° to the crack (kerf) after it opens a bit, just to limit any disasters from a heavy heiny and some dire consequences

Good suggestion! I'll make that kerf mark shortly.

And now to switch gears a bit... I have questions on termites. (Not sure if I should start a new topic for this. Reckon not...)

I found some dead-standing pines that have some pretty features (after scraping the bark off) but they also have termites, as mentioned in an earlier post.

Some people around here have said that as long as the wood isn't completely "ate up" you can treat the termites and use the wood for furniture, with the designs left by termites being a good thing.

I then asked about ways to treat termites and two different people told me that if you remove their water supply (or rather, remove them from their water supply), then they'll eventually die out. Not sure how you'd do this unless you set the wood up in the air some kind of way where they couldn't get back and forth to it.

But can't they get some water from the wood itself?

One person said that by simply working with the wood, I'd eventually be rid of them.

Is there a chemical treatment that can be used - and allow for safe handling/working of the wood later?

Bottom line is, I want to be sure that once I put this furniture in our house, there aren't any termites in there.

P.S. I read in the Foxfire book that it was believed termites never climb over 18". Boy, it would be nice if that were true. HA HA!

Ianab · October 30, 2006, 03:26:20 PM

My understanding of termites is that they nest in the ground because they need the moisture. They may chew tunnels a long way up inside a tree, post, house wall etc, but it's allways linked back to the nest in the moisture.

I think the 18" thing is the distance they will build their little mud tunnels looking for new wood. So build your house on 18" pilings and they wont bother climbing up into it. But if they find wood on the ground they will tunnel up inside it as far as they can.

Anyway, they cant live in dry wood that isn't connected to the ground, either directly or by their little tunnels. A solar kiln might be a good way to cook them and anything else thats hanging out in those logs?

Ian

FrankLad · October 30, 2006, 03:50:17 PM

Sounds like some good, solid info, Ianab! Much appreciated!

I did take a look at some solar kiln plans when I first started this thread but kinda gave up as they don't look too easy to construct (or at least the plans I saw).

Perhaps I can experiment with simply removing the log pieces from the ground / water (and maybe combine that with citrus oil treatment, as I now read works well).

Thanks again for the advice!

FrankLad · November 02, 2006, 09:31:36 AM

Here's the picture:

jpgreen · November 02, 2006, 11:49:03 AM

That's a nice stool Frank. Usually those rounds will split and crack in our dry climate.

The front leg looks like you borrowed it from a deer.. :D

FrankLad · November 02, 2006, 05:02:36 PM

Quotejpgreen: The front leg looks like you borrowed it from a deer..

Ha ha! Not the first time I've heard that!

solodan · November 02, 2006, 08:47:21 PM

Well Frank, what can I say, I like it.

And it's true what they say, Great Minds think alike. 8)

Yours,

Mine,

;D ;D ;D

solodan · November 02, 2006, 08:52:42 PM

Pat, I cut mine about 4 inches and put them in the oven at 175 degrees for about 36 hours, they get checks, but nothing too severe. If one does check bad you will know before you put it together.

jpgreen · November 02, 2006, 09:20:22 PM

Hey- I'm takin' notes.. ;D That's a good tip Dan.

I'm gonna have a wood shop by next spring at this rate.. :

;D

FrankLad · November 03, 2006, 09:27:04 AM

Quote from: solodan on November 02, 2006, 08:47:21 PM
Well Frank, what can I say, I like it.

And it's true what they say, Great Minds think alike. 8)

Yours,

Mine,

;D ;D ;D

Thanks, solodan!

I like your'n as well! What type of wood did you use?

That green Red Oak has a certain smell to it, similar to a wet dog. HA HA!

I got some nice pieces (thicker limbs, etc) from a pine tree I cut down recently. It was killed after the storm and has been drying for a bit over a year. I did a test tenon on one of the pieces, after easily scraping the bark off, and can't see any termite holes in the wood itself, but there are "etches" on the outside that some type of bug made between the bark and outer wood. There were some termites down around the trunk area but I don't know if they were all the way up the tree. The tree was around 30'+ tall, and the limbs were taken from the mid-upper area. Seems like they would stick closer to the ground, if they have to travel back and forth.

I called the USDA folks with questions about ways to safely treat wood to be used in log furniture. They put me in touch with the local termite expert who suggested an over-the-counter product called "33 Plus", which is supposed to be safe for working with the wood after it has been treated. Anyone heard of this?

solodan · November 03, 2006, 11:45:46 AM

Frank, I used ponderosa for the seat of this one, and sugar pine for the legs.

jpgreen · November 03, 2006, 11:48:19 AM

Water, borax, and a little clorox solution will knock em out, and kill any fungus or other bugs.

Brad_S. · November 03, 2006, 05:57:50 PM

Quote from: Stephen1 on October 24, 2006, 01:41:18 PM
I have seen table tops with a thick shinny finnish any ideas what this is.

That is probably an epoxy finish. Some of the better known brands are West System Epoxy and System 3 Epoxy. Here is a link that tells how to apply epoxy table tops.
http://www.epoxyproducts.com/bartop.html

Stephen1 · November 05, 2006, 01:04:38 PM

Thanks Brad, that is what I have been looking for, just have tp move to the states to get have it shipped. It is good reading though. I will look for a place up here.

FrankLad · November 06, 2006, 09:03:03 AM

QuoteWater, borax, and a little clorox solution will knock em out, and kill any fungus or other bugs.

I've read elsewhere on the net to use borax for ants. Glad to know it works on termites as well. How much of each part do you recommend in the mix?

jpgreen · November 06, 2006, 09:57:18 AM

I found that you can use boron and RV antifreeze (the non toxic pink stuff) as a treament and preventative for termites on buildings.

It was at 20 mule team boron/borax website I think.

As far as the solution above, I use it on milled lumber to kill fungus, mold, and any bugs. Just mix up 2-3 cups of borax, and 1/2 cup or so of clorox in a five gallon bucket and brush it on with an rv brush or push broom.

I saved a whole bunch of lumber that had white fungus with it. Kills termites dead. Also hit the boards with my pressure washer. The ones I missed last year are ruined.

solodan · November 06, 2006, 12:15:07 PM

Quote from: jpgreen on November 06, 2006, 09:57:18 AM

I found that you can use boron and RV antifreeze (the non toxic pink stuff) as a treament and preventative for termites on buildings.

I believe antifreeze is also supposed to stabalize the wood, as to why I don't know. ???

with the log furniture stuff, I usually wash my pieces with mineral spirits. For one it really dries the suface out for sanding and finishing, plus the solvents probably aid in killing any bugs near the surface. After my piece is sanded and finished, I usually use an orange oil based furniture polish . I think I use the one made by Pledge. It leaves a great finish, and from things I've read, orange oil kills carpenter ants on contact, so I would imagine it would be toxic to a number of other pests.

FrankLad · November 06, 2006, 02:45:14 PM

Thank you guys for the ideas and information!

FrankLad · December 05, 2006, 03:12:20 PM

Still working on building log furniture for our new house. Gathered enough dead-standing stuff to build a bed. Let it sit up above ground for a few weeks to treat termites.

Also, went ahead and ordered the Logman Tenon Maker from Baileys, along with the set of Forstner bits they sell for mortises to match the tenon sizes the Logman produces. I wanted to do all of this with handsaw, hatchet, and chisels but in the end realized just how long it would take to do it that route, and that time with family is more important so getting it done quicker is better, and I could still square up the shoulders and such for a less "machined" look.

Anyhow, that's an update. I wanted to bring this topic up again to ask about PEG (Polyethylene Glycol).

Have any of you guys used it in log furniture? From what I gather you can soak a piece of newly-cut green wood in it and it replaces the water inside and "stabilizes" the wood so that it doesn't really shrink or warp. Is that accurate?

Also, it appears to be very safe (even used as a laxative).

The stuff ain't cheap but if it allows me to use green wood effectively, then I may be really interested in it.

There's no shortage of dead-standing pine around here, but some of it doesn't seem satisfactory to me. For instance, I cut some really nice looking thick sections that would make pretty bed posts, but after running the drawknife over them (bark has already fallen off - I do it to get that black silt/dirt looking stuff out) I hit these pockets of pulpy wood here and there.

I'm thinking of how much more flexibility I'd have with green wood - no worm/bug holes, can perhaps do "skip-peeling" better, easier to work the wood, etc...

I just don't really comprehend how PEG works. Does it fill the cells (or wherever the water is) and just kinda sit there? Does it ever dry out?

Tom · December 05, 2006, 04:03:55 PM

PEG works, but you might find the cost of large pieces prohibitive. It is a process that is usually used by turners for bowls, or other small projects.

"Soaking" is a conservative term in that the replacement of the water by the PEG, as I understand it, takes a considerable amount of time.

FrankLad · December 05, 2006, 04:40:14 PM

It sure is expensive. I think you're right about using it on large pieces.

QuoteTom: "Soaking" is a conservative term in that the replacement of the water by the PEG, as I understand it, takes a considerable amount of time.

Hrm. So if time is still a factor, maybe I'm better off air-drying any newly cut pieces.

Don P · December 05, 2006, 05:37:13 PM

I talked to a rep from Fireside Log Homes in GA several
years ago . They use PEG on their logs in a pressure tank when very green. He sent me a micrograph that I've since lost of a slice through the cells of trated and untreated. The PEG mostly lodges within the cell wall but alot is in the cavity as well. The cell wall is what shrinks as the water between the fibers in the wall leaves. Their website might be worth a look.
One of the borates comes in a PEG solution, I think its Shellgard ???

FrankLad · December 07, 2006, 08:51:08 AM

Thanks, DonP! Didn't see to many technical specifics on http://www.firesideloghomes.com, but I always enjoy checking out log and timber home sites.

FrankLad · December 07, 2006, 09:31:23 AM

The Logman tenon maker arrived yesterday, along with the set of Forstner bits.

Baileys-Online.com - Logman Tenon Maker

Baileys-Online.com - Forstner Bit Set

I wanted to share my first impressions and initial experience with you guys. Reading about the Logman tenon maker here in the forums was what led me to purchase it to begin with (Thanks, Solodan!), so I think it's good to share experiences with others.

First of all, the thing was way easier than I thought it would be to install. The unit itself was metal with nice pre-drilled holes. I expected it to be plastic and require drilling of holes, due to what I've seen on the website and in a demo video. There were several different holes in the metal unit to accomodate various routers, but it also came with the extras to ensure it works with any router: Tracing paper, (which ould be used with a pencil on the bottom of your router, to get the screw hole locations) and a thick plastic base which can be screwed onto the bottom of the unit and flipped over.

Basically all I had to do was set the router on top of the unit, place the router bit (included in package) shaft up through the hole in the unit and into the collet of the router, which allowed me to rotate the router until I found a hole configuration in the base that lined up with the screw holes in the router, and put the screws in.

Next, I mounted the base to a sturdy sawhorse (made of 2x6 and 2x10 material - had to build almost 20 of them for the timber framers, so I had one laying around)

The last step was to add two bolts and nuts to the sides, used for locking the guides in place. I then put in the 2" guide and secured it.

Full of excitement, I got a 3" (approx) diameter piece of pine from the stack, switched the router on, and went to town. I was actually expecting something to not go quite right but it went as smooth as could be. I held the piece of wood with my left hand and turned with my right hand. In no time, I had a really nice looking shouldered tenon that looked just right - not too machined. Of course, a 2" tenon on a 3" piece was just a test - nothing I'd actually use, so I decided to see just how fast I could put two pieces together.

I grabbed a smaller piece (2" or so) from the pile and put a 1" tenon on using a different guide (by the way, the Logman comes with 2 guides for making 4 different sizes of tenons, with an additional guide for 2-3/4" sold separately). Then I took the 3" piece from earlier and, using the 1" Forstner, drilled a mortise.

I inserted the tenon into the mortise using a twisting motion. I was surprised at just how snug of a fit the joint was. ...and the whole operation took just a couple of minutes.

My wife is very excited about all of this too, since it means less of a wait to see new furniture pieces.

So in conclusion, I highly recommend the Logman tenon maker (as well as the matching set of Forstner bits) for anyone interested in building their own log furniture.

...and you may want to pick up this book, co-authored by the inventor of the Logman:

Baileys-Online.com - BOOK - Build Your Own Log Furniture

Lots of info contained within, including the history and various tools, finishes, and 10 different projects (stool, log table, bed, etc.). Although it mentions use of the Logman, it covers an array of other tools as well.

jpgreen · December 07, 2006, 10:49:01 AM

Good report Frank!

I want one of those puppies. Speaking of dead trees..

I've been savaging dead pines, some up to 30" that have been down for some time. It's remarkable how they stay in good condition for years. One landed on some rocks, and I've been eyeing it for about 5 years, and finally took my little parbuckle rig in and bucked it up in 17' lengths.

From the stump was perfect, the next section on up was too with some sap wood rot. The next section had no sap wood rot, but had a reddish kind of punkyness look at the end so I though it was bad. I kept sawing it back in 16" increments to see if it would clear out, but it didn't. At the last 8', I deceided the heck with it, I've been fooled before, so I took it home.

I'll be darned if that log was not punk at all, and infact was a red tinted pine with awsome figure. I runied half of that log thinking it was bad.. :

It was either surgar pine or ponderosa. I picked up 12- 17' 22-30" in diameter in a few hours the past couple days with my little parbuckler for free. All was just going to rot eventually.