Per Ohio "Best Management Practices" is winching timber across a creek allowed?

[DavidDeBord]

Greetings!

Per Ohio's "Best Management Practices" is winching harvested logs across a creek that is approximately 28 to 40 ft wide allowed?

[Old Greenhorn]

If you are using a highline and they never touch the water, it should be ok. But if you are dragging them I can't see any BMP that would allow that. You will dredge up sediment and disturb all the habitats in that waterway, clouding the water and wiping out any fish nesting.
 You should be able to find your sate's BMP's with a simple internet search. Knowledge is power.

[DavidDeBord]

Greetings Greenhorn,

Thank you for replying.

The "Winching" is not my idea,..... That was brought up by  a "Logger" who is extremely interested in Our Walnut Trees, but apparently doesn't want to build, nor rent a "Logging Bridge".

What is "Blowing My Mind", is that this "Logger" is listed as a "Master Logger" in Kentucky.   

I downloaded Ohio's "BMP", & can not find any reference to "Winching across a creek".

This logger stated nothing about "High Lining", and he also said that by attaching cable to the highest part of his "skidder", that there would be no problem with bringing the timber across the Creek. 

My Contract, that I made up, absolutely states that all Liability related to keeping/maintaining Ohio's "BMP" rests with the Logger. 

Is it possible that Kentucky's "BMP" allows this kind of "Winching", where Ohio's does not?

[beenthere]

What the logger builds or rents comes out of your paycheck for the logs, one way or another. 
 

[Ron Wenrich]

No access from the other side?

[Old Greenhorn]

Well, you don't show pictures and none of us are there, so anything you learn here is just free advice, but initially this sounds 'shady'. You are asking me to do your homework for you. HERE is the Ohio BMP I found and if you start studying from page 36 onward, you will see that bridges are recommended as a first choice. Barring that the very least is hardening the grade in and out of the crossing as well as hardening the bottom.
 I believe you really should have a forester write your contracts, look over your trees and crossing and make sure this is done right. As I said, if he is blowing you off on this, I just have a suspicious feeling about this guy, master logger or not. If you don't have a forester or somebody very familiar with the BMP in your area, you could be in for a me$$.
 Also look around for water quality standards, especially as applies to that very waterway.
 Winching directly across and through a stream just don't sound right to me. That will really tear up the stream bed. BUT, as I said, I can't see it from here.
 Just be careful and have your ducks lined up. How much timber is he removing?

[B.C.C. Lapp]

I don't log in Ohio. But here in Pa that wouldn't fly. Not saying some guys wouldn't do it. Some surely would. My grandfather wouldn't have give it a thought.  But we know better now. He didn't. But today we know its illegal and unethical. I doubt its right in Ohio either.  Any time your tearing up a stream bed, or pulling soil into flowing water, or leaving limbs and debris in the water way, well your wrong.   There is almost always a way to pull it off without doing something that will get the Soil conservation boys, or the DEP, or the fish cops showing up on your landing.  That's never good.

[barbender]

"Master Logger" certification in MN just means you sat through more hours of classes and paid more membership fees.

[Old Greenhorn]

Barbender is correct. Having credentials, no matter how much or how little work was involved to get those credentials means little to some folks. They get tired, they get greedy, they get sloppy, or some other reason, they leave the path. EVERY profession has them, Doctors, Lawyers, police, fire, and anything else you can think of has folks that will wander off the path for a quick gain. Now reputation is something different. It takes a career of work to build a good rep, and that rep can be gone with one poor choice. 
 If you are banking on someone's word, you best check out their reputation rather than look at their paperwork. I hate to say it, but it the logging world, there are more than a few bad/sloppy ones. One good thing is, it's a small world and the sloppy guys are usually well known by their peers.  The last thing you want to hear is somebody else say "DANG! You hired THAT guy?! Dude you should have called me, I hope he doesn't screw you too. Sorry Man, but keep an eye on him."

[Southside]

Yea - that would get you into a heap of trouble here, and your contract won't preclude you as the landowner from ponying up the money to remediate the problem when, not if, DEQ or the Feds show up due to a sudden stream silting issue.  

In addition to the state BMP's you really need to know if there are additional SMZ (Stream side Management Zones) or watershed protection issues that you need to deal with given where water eventually lands that comes off of your property.  

My home farm and some ground I lease is in two different watersheds even though it's only about 5 miles as the crow flies between the two, and the rules are not the same for both. 

[Old Greenhorn]

It's worse here SS, we have an interactive map in the web that has all the wetland classifications for EVERY waterway and you can zoom in and see the classifications on any given piece of property. Some of those classes can change on the same body of water in a very short distance. You almost need a consultant in some areas to make sure you have the right class. And Yeah, the SMZ's are a big deal with silt barriers, buffer zones, etc. @BargeMonkey is very up on all this stuff in NY, but it won't necessarily apply in OH except in a general way. That's why I suggested getting a forester that knows the area to write up the contract.
 More and more I am thinking this logger may be the 'hit and run typo'. Take all the good wood, underpay the LO and leave a mess, never to be found again. Sure, its no problem winching through a creek bed (for him). The problem comes up later when the LO is left holding the bag for fines and remediation and the logger is long gone.
 I'd still like to know how much timber we are talking about here? Maybe the OP will check back in and fill us in.

[DavidDeBord]

What the logger builds or rents comes out of your paycheck for the logs, one way or another.
 

Per the Contract, the profit from the Auction to be held here, will be 50/50

[DavidDeBord]

No access from the other side?

No Sir,

Our Neighbors are three Sons, & their Widowed Mother.  They were spoiled rotten when they were teenagers, & I had to "Lay th' Law" down on them when they thought they could have their way with my teen age daughters.

 The Sons are now Grown men, with two still living at home., & Our "Neighborly relationship", is "pith Poor" at the best.

I asked for permission to cross their property, to the county road for loading the logs, as long as We had a "Notarized Contract" with them, stating that all ruts would be leveled out, with grass seed, & straw covering the area, at my cost, & they said "No, that they didn't want to deal with the mess". 

Their property, is set up, where what they own, across the creek, going East, only allows a 12ft wide patch that we own at the road, right next to the creek, but,..... The guardrail for the County road  bridge , stops all access to any 4 wheel equipment, being able to drive up off of our property .Another problem is, that 12ft wide patch of land is only 29ft long, & then for approximately 79 ft. West, it's their property, along the creek, then, as the creek veers to the South, it's Our Land, 179 ft up to where the Creek veers North.

This Creek averages 28 to 42 Ft. wide, & it averages throughout  from the bottom of the Creek to the top of the bank, 4ft to 5ft. high.

Without permission to cross their land, my understanding of what I've researched, is that a "Logging Bridge" would have to be installed, due to the height of the Creek Bank.

[DavidDeBord]

Barbender is correct. Having credentials, no matter how much or how little work was involved to get those credentials means little to some folks. They get tired, they get greedy, they get sloppy, or some other reason, they leave the path. EVERY profession has them, Doctors, Lawyers, police, fire, and anything else you can think of has folks that will wander off the path for a quick gain. Now reputation is something different. It takes a career of work to build a good rep, and that rep can be gone with one poor choice.
 If you are banking on someone's word, you best check out their reputation rather than look at their paperwork. I hate to say it, but it the logging world, there are more than a few bad/sloppy ones. One good thing is, it's a small world and the sloppy guys are usually well known by their peers.  The last thing you want to hear is somebody else say "DANG! You hired THAT guy?! Dude you should have called me, I hope he doesn't screw you too. Sorry Man, but keep an eye on him."

I Fully Agree Greenhorn.  I checked him out with Kentucky's Forestry Division, on the Internet, & even called down there, to verify that he wasn't on their "Bad Loggers List", & he wasn't. I also checked him out via the Better Business Bureau, & he's had no problems listed. That's why I thought that I had finally found "The Chosen One".

But, then he came up with this crap about winching logs across the creek. And,.... He also told me, that if I got the Neighbor's permission to cross their land near the road that "He would drag the logs down the road to the Auction Site" on our property.

I Told him that he wasn't dragging anything down the road, cuz' Our County Engineer absolutely would not approve of that.

[Southside]

That sounds like it could be considered a "navigable" waterway, and with that relationship with the neighbors will guarantee a regulatory visit.  Skidder bridges really aren't some unobtanium item in the logging world for most full time guys. 

[DavidDeBord]

Yea - that would get you into a heap of trouble here, and your contract won't preclude you as the landowner from ponying up the money to remediate the problem when, not if, DEQ or the Feds show up due to a sudden stream silting issue. 

In addition to the state BMP's you really need to know if there are additional SMZ (Stream side Management Zones) or watershed protection issues that you need to deal with given where water eventually lands that comes off of your property. 

My home farm and some ground I lease is in two different watersheds even though it's only about 5 miles as the crow flies between the two, and the rules are not the same for both.

That " SMZ (Stream side Management Zones) or watershed protection issues", is something that even those that I talked to at ODNR, & The County "Soil & Water" never mentioned.----DANG! This creek is listed/Named on Our County Engineers GIS, & it joins another Creek, in the County East of Us that runs in to East Fork Lake, which is a State Park.

Southside, could You please tell me, what terms would I use on "Th' Net" to gather that Data. I just did a Search for "Stream side Management Zone", and got:

No results found for "Stream side Management Zones for Brown County, Ohio".

[Southside]

Honestly the best thing you can do would be to call your State or County Forester - the one that works for the actual State Forestry Department, and ask them to come and pay you a visit.  Walk them to the site and they will tell you what you can do, what you can't do, and what will happen if you do it anyway.  I am presuming your logger would need to pull a permit to begin logging and with that stream showing up someone would come and do a compliance audit  in these parts without any complaint being filed.  This isn't one of those "tis better to ask for forgiveness" times. 

[DavidDeBord]

That sounds like it could be considered a "navigable" waterway, and with that relationship with the neighbors will guarantee a regulatory visit.  Skidder bridges really aren't some unobtanium item in the logging world for most full time guys.

The Creek, in normal weather, flows about 1' to 2' deep all year.  When we get approx 2"-3" of rain, the Creek Floods, and it easily expands to 90 foot across.

People come to the County Bridge, & fish for minnows very often. To the east of the county road, there's even a swimming hole that my Mother in Law used to swim in 70 years ago. And, there are spots to the East & West, where Bass Fish can be caught.

[Southside]

Ohh I bet you have some endangered species of minnow in there, or at least that's what the summons will say.  I have a couple of creeks that flow through our farm and you would be amazed at what is supposed to live in there according to the "experts". 

[Old Greenhorn]

I still have not seen any indication of how much timber is involved here.

[DavidDeBord]

Honestly the best thing you can do would be to call your State or County Forester - the one that works for the actual State Forestry Department, and ask them to come and pay you a visit.  Walk them to the site and they will tell you what you can do, what you can't do, and what will happen if you do it anyway.  I am presuming your logger would need to pull a permit to begin logging and with that stream showing up someone would come and do a compliance audit  in these parts without any complaint being filed.  This isn't one of those "tis better to ask for forgiveness" times. 

The ODNR "Forestry Agent", Brad Wireman, is no longer available,cuz' he's been moved to another position, which means , if I am understanding correctly, Our County, at this time, has no  "Forestry Agent".

I'm going to call Bob Mulligan, at ODNR, back Monday, & let him know about this latest development, with this "Logger".

I'm also going to call this local "Consulting Forester" recommended by the County Soil & Water, who is a member of " Society of American Foresters":

https://osafdirectory.com/ 

This whole situation has been like something out of a "High Suspense/Horror Movie".

I've met here on our property, many so called "loggers", .... One didn't have a contract, & spit in his hand, reached out, & said "Mah Word is My Bond!", ! I couldn't quit laughing & told him to get his sorry ass off of the property. Another "logger", came here in a beat up pick -up, with paint cans, brushes, rollers,etc. in the cab, & in the bed. LMAO! he had wet paint all over him, & yet he told me that he just finished a  logging job, over in the next town. Our Dog, didn't like him, & scared Th' pith outa him, & I told him to get off of the property.I even had two "Big Name Loggers" who I talked with on the phone, & I was impressed. But that fell apart when I asked them to E-mail a "Voided Contract", which both Contracts at no time, referred to Ohio's "BMP", in any form. Worse yet, their Contracts were fully "Self Serving", with very little consideration for the "Land Owner".

" I am presuming your logger would need to pull a permit to begin logging"

That, I am not sure of, for nobody from ODNR, nor "Soil & Water" spoke of it, but I'll also be checking on that Monday.

[Old Greenhorn]

Well, with no idea of how much timber we are talking here and no photos to work from, it's hard to go any further beyond all the very good input you've had so far. The amount of investment a logger will make has to be in proportion to the timber value removed. A logger will not put in a bridge for 5 trees because it's not just the bridge, it is the work in setting and hardening the adjacent area and all the remediation that has to be done after the job. Plus there are the materials used for that hardening which has to be trucked in. There are areas around my region where a logger can rent a bridge or mats for almost free from a government department that tries to keep the water clean and erosion in check. If a logger was gaining access to 1,000 trees with that same bridge it would be different. If you were the logger you might think the same way. The only other thought that enters my pea brain, is possibly YOU get whatever permits are needed to build that bridge as a semi-permanent way to access your own property, but build it heavy. 30-40' is a long span, and you would want to harden the crossing entry/exits just as good practice.  You also need bridge runout on both ends as well as anchoring. Then the logger could use it and you would have full time access. But that all depends on local regulations and laws.
 The Ohio SAF website is a gold mine of info for you. I'd suggest you spend some time reading all the info they have to offer for landowners like you. They also have a 'Locate a consulting forester" page FOUND HERE . There should be someone in your area, or perhaps a ODNR forester in an adjacent region that can help or direct you to whomever is covering your region.
 Lastly, also on the OSAF pages I found a glossary explaining the terms that loggers use, which may help you, so look for that too if you haven't already found it.
 Best of luck and please do let us know how you make out with this. All these folks invested their valuable time in giving you advice so you could find the best solution. It is only the polite thing to do in letting them know how it all worked out so others might learn from your efforts.
 

[Clark]

Walk away from this offer. If this guy does drag the logs across the creek and even if the State or Feds don't show up, you will be left with a stream that looks an army was run through there and it will take decades to recover. This logger doesn't care one iota about your property.

[thecfarm]

I would think any state you cannot drag logs through a creek.

[Ron Wenrich]

I had a job where the loggers dragged across a dried up stream with rock bottom.  The Fish Commission wrote them up, thanks to a neighbor complaint.  This "drained" into the local water company, and there was no increase in turbidity. 

Another place to check on specs is with the Soil Conservation Service.  They might have info on stream side disturbance.  With the flooding that you're describing, you will have to do something with the slash.

It doesn't sound like there are too many trees.  You might have more headaches than what its worth, even if its a high cash value.  If its really high, get a helicopter. 

[DavidDeBord]

I had a job where the loggers dragged across a dried up stream with rock bottom.  The Fish Commission wrote them up, thanks to a neighbor complaint.  This "drained" into the local water company, and there was no increase in turbidity. 

Another place to check on specs is with the Soil Conservation Service.  They might have info on stream side disturbance.  With the flooding that you're describing, you will have to do something with the slash.

It doesn't sound like there are too many trees.  You might have more headaches than what its worth, even if its a high cash value.  If its really high, get a helicopter.

Greetings Ron,

I thought that I had posted it, but if I am remembering correctly there's 24 to 30 Veneer Grade Walnut Trees. When I asked him for a "Gross Value" before the Auction, of the trees, he told me "30-50,00 dollars".

"Helicopter" ,.... !  The way this is going, I'd have to go through the Pentagon, & NASA, only to find that the "chopper" has been sent to Ukraine.

[Texas Ranger]

Gross value $30 - %50? For what, sq foot, pound or the log?  I question the 50-50.

[Ron Scott]

See the State of Ohio's BMP's Section VI for Stream Crossings. 

https://www.safohio.org/bmps/

[KEC]

So if the adjoining landowners could be convinced that damage would be minimal and it could be done when the ground is dry, maybe a forwarder could work. Maybe fiqure out a way that they get something out of the deal. Fix them up with some firewood logs, something.

[Ianab]

Seen a local job, pulling pine across a small river. They set up a flying fox from a tree on either side, and "flew" the logs across from a plantation on the other side that had really poor access.

No huge cost as the flying fox was pulled by a skidder, used some existing trees as the "towers", so it was just a rig of cables and pulleys. More expensive than just dragging through the river, but probably saved a 6 figure fine.  

[Ron Wenrich]

If the value is that high, then a helicopter isn't out of the equation.  I saw them in a larger operation where they were used in supposedly high grade timber in a rocky mountain side in PA.  The logs turned out not to be as valuable as thought.

We had a truck driver come to our yard and said he saw a $50k walnut log in a veneer yard that he delivered to.  They were German buyers, and this was years ago.  He said it was 51", but I forget the length (thinking it was 15').  What made the price was the ring spacing.

My experience as a procurement forester and a consulting forester is that you have no idea how much veneer is in a stand.  Trees that look good can come down bad.  The logger is using that as a sales pitch.  You heard $50k, and that sticks in your head. 

My suggestion would be to find a veneer buyer and deal with him directly.  If the tree has that much value, then it shouldn't be that hard.  They will take the necessary precautions to remove the tree and do it by the book. 

[dougtrr2]

How large a crane would it take to reach across the creek?  Stage the logs on one side.  Have the truck on the other.  The crane picks them up and puts them on the truck.  Sounds easy when you say it fast. 

Doug in SW IA

[DavidDeBord]

So if the adjoining landowners could be convinced that damage would be minimal and it could be done when the ground is dry, maybe a forwarder could work. Maybe fiqure out a way that they get something out of the deal. Fix them up with some firewood logs, something.

I understand what You are saying KEC, but,..... You'd have to know our "Neighbors". The only communication that they offer is when they "Want Something", &/or when I'm telling them to shut down the Wild Parties at 3A.M on a work day.

In the past, I helped them out with a major electrical problem, & later a bad heating problem, & did not charge them, "Cuz' we was neighbors", but when we had a major snow fall, they had to be paid to clear our driveway of snow, with their tractor.

[DavidDeBord]

How large a crane would it take to reach across the creek?  Stage the logs on one side.  Have the truck on the other.  The crane picks them up and puts them on the truck.  Sounds easy when you say it fast.

Doug in SW IA

From what I've learned, "Hiring/Renting a crane, plus placing crane matting down,... The profits would quickly disappear.

[DavidDeBord]

If the value is that high, then a helicopter isn't out of the equation.  I saw them in a larger operation where they were used in supposedly high grade timber in a rocky mountain side in PA.  The logs turned out not to be as valuable as thought.

We had a truck driver come to our yard and said he saw a $50k walnut log in a veneer yard that he delivered to.  They were German buyers, and this was years ago.  He said it was 51", but I forget the length (thinking it was 15').  What made the price was the ring spacing.

My experience as a procurement forester and a consulting forester is that you have no idea how much veneer is in a stand.  Trees that look good can come down bad.  The logger is using that as a sales pitch.  You heard $50k, and that sticks in your head. 

My suggestion would be to find a veneer buyer and deal with him directly.  If the tree has that much value, then it shouldn't be that hard.  They will take the necessary precautions to remove the tree and do it by the book.

This "Logger"actually told me "30 to 50 thousand" Ron, but,......

When I told him that I had lined up four "veneer buyers", of which one he was familiar with, he objected to the other three being there. In my thinking, the more people that are at an auction, that want the product,.... The more money there is to be made.

At least that has been my experience at Auctions where HVAC & Refrigeration equipment was being auctioned off. I've seen Refrigeration walk-ins auctioned off with the condensing units/evaporators, that were still under warranty, auctioned off for "Pennies on the dollar", with a small crowd of buyers,& then saw them sell at practically new prices, when there were many buyers.

This "Logger", who I thought was an "Answer to a Prayer", ... right at the point of signing my contract, has rapidly proven not to be.

[KEC]

I get it. Makes me appreciate my neighbors.

[barbender]

 I didn't like your logger at the beginning of your post, and like him less the more you tell about him. 

 The only really feasible thing you can do here to get access to the trees across the creek is pay your neighbors for access, as you have suggested that is the language they understand. Even if you had to pay them $1000 to get access, that's way cheaper than anything you're going to do to move timber across the creek. 

 I think you were hoping that we would tell you that, "yeah we drag wood across creeks all the time, no problem", but there is no where that is allowed according to best management practices. 

[Ron Scott]

Yes, you and the logger will need to comply with the State's BMP's. Check with the State's DNR, local Conservation District Forester, or a professional consulting forester serving you area as to what the minimum stream crossing compliance will be.

Do you have a photo of the stream crossing area? How big of a project is it? 

[beenthere]

DavidDeBord

Suggest going back to your initial post and read the first reply by member Texas Ranger.
https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=92035.msg1416836#msg1416836

He states very well what several have also been trying to tell you.

Hope you can locate a consulting forester and get the help you need, as well as let us know how it turns out in your favor. 

You will need to spend some money to make money, as well as put trust in people.

[OntarioAl]

 The bottom line the land owner is ultimately responsible 
The logger disappears to another state and you are left holding the bag
This logger smells walk away 
My opinion
Cheers Al

[DavidDeBord]

"I think you were hoping that we would tell you that, "yeah we drag wood across creeks all the time, no problem", but there is no where that is allowed according to best management practices.

No Sir,... I was not hoping to get that answer.   

 I came here to this forum, to verify what my gut was telling me, as well as My Understanding of the 2024 Ohio BMP, .....despite this "Loggers" Outstanding credentials in Kentucky,  & his assurances that it was alright to do.

[DavidDeBord]

I got a phone call from Bob Mulligan, from ODNR, who had previously given me the Data about the bridge rental.

Since Our local State Forestry Agent is no longer in that position, Bob told me that he would come. 

From all that I told him,.... He said that he believes that there is a solution to the problem of getting across the creek.

Ya'll,... I Absolutely Appreciate all of Your help!

[KEC]

We will want to hear "The rest of the story."

[DavidDeBord]

We will want to hear "The rest of the story."

Absolutely KEC.

[beenthere]

DavidDeBord started this venture here on the FF in 2016, 

https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=92035.msg2030702#msg2030702

A forester would be a good idea, given the history so far. 

[DavidDeBord]

DavidDeBord started this venture here on the FF in 2016,

https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=92035.msg2030702#msg2030702

A forester would be a good idea, given the history so far. 

And My post there, at that topic,  oday, explains how it ended up here Beenthere.