Speed drying/seasoning American Hornbeam?

[malignity]

Howdy folks. I'm a new guy, recommended by our resident swearer, DanG.   :D

I've been doing primarily hand whittling with wood for years, but never did my own drying or seasoning other than simply firewood, which is the waiting game.

Long story short, I just stared knife making, and found that American Hornbeam (blue beech, Eastern Ironwood) is not offered nearly anywhere in any exotic wood location because it doesn't get big enough to commercially harvest.

I've found the wood extremely beautiful, desirable, and want to fill a niche, since I have nearly an unlimited supply at my disposal.

I'd like to make some hornbeam walking sticks, knife scales, turning blocks, etc. The 'muscles' alone would make a beautiful wood just with the bark stripped.

I don't have a kiln or vacuum press or anything fancy. I do have a dehumidifier and fan though.

I had almost thought about taking some large 4" diameter PVC pipe, capping an end, adding the wood and covering with rock salt to see if the salt granules will soak out the moisture, but not sure it'll work. No idea if it'll work or if I'm just wasting time.

I've also got a battery charger, and had heard about electrifying the water out. Would it be just as easy as taking two probes, sticking it in the wood, and hooking it up?

On a similar unrelated note, I noticed that the 'muscle' surface is so particular that there is no easy way to debark this stuff at all.

I tried flame treating it, hitting some green wood with a propane torch, and did get some bubbling in some places where it started to peel (and yes, I could hear it crackling inside at times, so I may have been causing some splits, as the moisture has to escape somewhere) but even flaming the bark didn't really work as well as I had hoped. Luckily it's a thinner bark, and I could resort in hand sanding it all off if I absolutely had to. Just hoping there's a better and faster way.

Thanks folks, hopefully you all can help.

[beenthere]

Welcome to the Forestry Forum..

[DanG]

Welcome aboard, Malignity.  I'm glad you decided to join us.

The best way I know to get that slick debarked look is to cut a live tree in the spring, just as the new cambium layer is forming.  The bark will peel away easily that way.  ;)

[malignity]

The bark on Hornbeam is VERY thin to begin with, which is why I thought I could just burn it off. lol.

I just had a crazy idea for making a kiln like contraption. I don't know if it'd work, but it might. Say I were to take a piece of 4" diameter PVC, take a piece of hornbeam and throw it inside, and attach a hair dryer to one end, with the other end being open?

Heat... fan... it almost sounds plausible. Hornbeam doesn't get above 4" really in diameter. I don't know; just a random idea I had. I've got an order to fill a hog hunting spear with hornbeam shaft, and I can't find any already seasoned in the woods. Spent 4 hours out there the other day and it's all either green or rotten. No in between.

[malignity]

Blade will be made from 20" long 80CRV2 (10" blade, 10" shaft into the hornbeam) with bone sheath. It's going to be sick if I can make it happen.

[malignity]

Seems my charger won't even try and charge it. Took a nail and nailed on each side and no luck.

[DanG]

I don't know how quickly you need to get this wood dry, but it seems to me that you're fighting a losing battle.  If you try to dry it too quickly, you will get a lot of surface checking, because the outside will dry and shrink faster than the inside.  The trick is to maintain the proper humidity in the air to prevent the outside from drying too quickly, while letting the inside wick its moisture to the outside.  That is generally a slow process. Most ways to speed it up involve fairly sophisticated methods and close monitoring for days or weeks.  Maybe some of the more knowledgeable folks on here will have some ideas for you.  ;)

[GeneWengert-WoodDoc]

The least expensive and most efficient way to dry such items is by using air with a modest humidity, modest temperature and modest air flow.  The precise values are given in text books, such as DRYING HARDWOOD LUMBER.

Salt seasoning is a well documented drying process and it does indeed work.  The issue is that if the wood is in contact with he salt, some calc will end up in the wood.  Salt seasoning and descant drying are both rather slow and expensive.

Regarding the bark, for most species, the springtime is the slippery bark time, as already stated.  At other times of the year, the bark is removed mechanically, with he effort exerted being infproportion to the tightness of the bark.  Commercial debunkers use quite a lot of force indeed.

Using electricity to dry wood has also been studied.  The electricity creates heat (uncontrolled heat, so the wood can ignite sometimes) and the heat then accomplishes drying.  Instead of 60 cycle electricity, a lot of research has been done with faster cycles...radio frequency, and even microwaves.  expensive and hard to control the energy input, so quality is poor, compared to drying with air.

[bkaimwood]

Small pieces like that? I'd look into making a refrigerator kiln...you can usually get a working one free or close to it...if space is an issue, consider a bar fridge kiln...lots of turners have done this...Google it...

[thecfarm]

malignity,welcome to the forum. I sure don't know,but start trying for future build. Sounds like you could have a good nitch,if you could get the wood dried.

[malignity]

I'll have to check into the fridge kiln. That won't help much with my longer stuff if I want to do 5-6' walking sticks, but maybe I can apply the same principals to a different 'shell'.

Alternatively, I could learn to stabilize wood. I'm not sure there's a way to stabilize wood properly however without a vacuum pump. Those ain't cheap. :'(

[beenthere]

...............

Alternatively, I could learn to stabilize wood. I'm not sure there's a way to stabilize wood properly however without a vacuum pump. Those ain't cheap. :'(

What method would that be, using a vacuum pump ??

[DanG]

Stabilizing is a process where you put the wood under a real serious vacuum to pull all the air and water out, then inject a polymerizing liquid into the chamber. The liquid permeates the wood and hardens, pretty much giving the wood the qualities of a plastic. Somebody here is doing some of it.  I'm thinkin' it is Busy Bee, but not sure.

[malignity]

Seems to be very popular in the knife making crowd where I hang out.   :D

Many knife makers use dyed cactus juice as a stabilizing liquid, which once going through the wood, dyes it that color. It looks really neat, but I can't afford to shell out the cash for a pump. They're a buck fifty or so for a basic two stage. Maybe one day, we'll see.

[bkaimwood]

You could make walking sticks for shorter people, then they would fit? :)

[GAB]

Heat... fan... it almost sounds plausible. Hornbeam doesn't get above 4" really in diameter. I don't know; just a random idea I had. I've got an order to fill a hog hunting spear with hornbeam shaft, and I can't find any already seasoned in the woods. Spent 4 hours out there the other day and it's all either green or rotten. No in between.

I'd like to know where you get the idea that Hornbeam doesn't get above 4" really in diameter.  I harvested an eastern hophornbeam on my property that was 51' in circumference at breast height.  It sawed nice, but I had to slow down a bit.
Gerald

[DanG]

Two different trees.  According to what I've read, American Hornbeam will get up to 12" DBH, but that is probably in the southern part of its range.

[malignity]

I've never seen American Hornbeam (blue beech) above about 5". They may exist bigger, but not in MI.

They don't commercially harvest it for that reason. Not enough meat to make it worth while. Gotta be a different tree you cut.

Americam Hornbeam has a very distinct look and bark pattern to it which would be extremely desirable for knife scales. Here's an example.

[GAB]

Dang & malignity:
Thanks for the replies.
Based on the picture it is definitely a different tree.
I wonder if the tree shown in malignity's picture is the same type of tree as to what we refer to as a musclewood tree?
Gerald

[jueston]

Stabilizing is a process where you put the wood under a real serious vacuum to pull all the air and water out, then inject a polymerizing liquid into the chamber. The liquid permeates the wood and hardens, pretty much giving the wood the qualities of a plastic. Somebody here is doing some of it.  I'm thinkin' it is Busy Bee, but not sure.

i have never stabilized, but everything i have read said that the wood needs to be dry when it goes into the process, because the pump removes air but not water, the water will remain and cause inconsistencies in the polymer saturation.

[Jemclimber]

American hornbeam (Carpinus caroliniana) and Eastern hophornbeam (Ostrya virginiana) are two different trees. I've heard both called ironwood and other names which can lead to confusion.

I'd like to know where you get the idea that Hornbeam doesn't get above 4" really in diameter.  I harvested an eastern hophornbeam on my property that was 51' in circumference at breast height.  It sawed nice, but I had to slow down a bit.
Gerald

The only trees in the US that get 16feet in diameter are the ones on the west coast. I can believe 51" (inches) circumference (~4' diameter) so I'm assuming it's just a typo?

[GAB]

@Jemclimber:
You wrote: "The only trees in the US that get 16feet in diameter are the ones on the west coast. I can believe 51" (inches) circumference (~4' diameter) so I'm assuming it's just a typo?"
When I went to school it was the old math system and at that time circumference was around the outside so the diameter would be approx. 16 inches.
Did I miss something?
Gerald

[Jemclimber]

GAB you wrote 51' (feet) not 51" (inches) which I said I assumed it was a typo.  Yes a quick approximation is to divide circumference by 3 (actually 3.14159....) but 3 is close enough for ~.   It also appears I made and error and wrote ~4 "diameter" which I was meaning to write "circumference" which translates to ~16 inches.        Ooops!!   Maybe I should have kept my mouth closed.    Sorry GAB and thanks for the correction.    Carry on.

[malignity]

The American Hornbeam I'm referring to is in fact "musclewood."

Here, many call it Ironwood, however it's more of an east coast wood, so it should be referred to as an Eastern Ironwood imo; not to be confused with Desert Ironwood out in California area.

Also called musclewood, or blue beech.

The hair dryer and PVC tube trick seems to be working. The ends are starting to check after an hour run, and I took it out to examine it, and it was too hot to touch to the bare hand. Lol.  I just don't know how long I should be doing it for. I guess I can just check with a moisture meter, but I don't want to keep sticking the prongs into the wood except for on the ends since i'm going to be actually utilizing the entire thing and sanding out prong marks isn't going to be fun.

[John Mc]

Resurrecting an old thread here, but I'm curious what Malignity ended up with here.

The problem with the hair dryer in a PVC tube idea is that the heat is uncontrolled. If you were drying for firewood, or some other application where splitting and checking don't matter, that would not be a big deal. I'm guessing it's a problem for carving or making a walking stick.
__________________

There are a couple of trees with similar names that often get confused (and thus their nicknames often applied to other species).

• American Hornbeam (also known as Musclewood, Blue Beech or Water beech - it's not in the beech family, but the smooth bark has earned it those nicknames.) Bark is smooth and grayish-blue, with furrows resembling sinewy muscles. It's commonly found in wet woods and on the borders of swamps and streams. The wood is close-grained, compact, and strong. Used for levers, handles, and wedges.

• Eastern Hophornbeam (also known as Ironwood or Leverwood, and at least in my area as "Hardhack") The bark is light brown or light grayish-brown in thin flakey/scaly strips or ridges (my son used to call it "baby shagbark hickory", though it's not that shaggy). IT grows mainly in rich or open woods, slopes and ridges having dry, gravely soil. The wood is very close-grained, heavy, and very strong. It was also used for tool handles, wedges (for directional tree felling), and makes great firewood. In the past it was used to make trip stakes on logging trucks, and wagon tongues for horse-drawn wagons.

For both trees, the habitat is mostly east of the habitat is mostly east of the Mississippi. They typically don't get larger than 12" diameter (getting larger than 6 or 8" in my area is unusual). 

Even though you can tell them apart instantly by their bark, the confusion (probably due to name similarity) is widespread enough that I've even got a tree ID book that misapplies a description of "sinewy muscles" to Eastern Hophornbeam, and completely leaves off this distinguishing feature from the description of American Hornbeam.