Is this a good used 12" Jointer?

[Brad_bb]

Came across this 12 jointer on Craigslist for $900.  I went and looked at it.  Is this a good machine? Seems to run alright.  He fed a small piece of stock across it.  It has the original motor that is 5hp 3phase 220V 15A.  I'm wondering how this will do jointing a 10" or 12" piece of stock.  Would it be better with a bigger motor?  I'm going to have to either get a phase converter or change out the motor to single phase and I could increase the HP?
Thanks, Brad

[Don P]

I'm running a power fed 15" planer with a 3 hp motor, I wouldn't be too worried about horsepower if you keep sharp knives in it. Larger than 5 hp in single phase starts to get pretty spendy. I'd get a phase converter, opens up more options as you acquire more toys. Check tables and fence for twist/plane. Does everything move up/down, in/out freely. Pulleys rotate square and true, bearings quiet.

[Greyhound]

That looks like a great machine.  Plenty of power - no worries there.  I wish I could find something like that near me.

[Kbeitz]

Might be hard to get parts for... Not a lot of info out there on it.


jointer Sk-12FPN SECO

[TKehl]

Would be worth looking into a VFD with single phase in and 3 phase out.  

[muggs]

my 20 inch Oliver jointer has 5 hp. It does not lack for power, because you normally don't make deep cuts with a jointer, and that is with a power feed.   Muggs

[scsmith42]

Brad, I would not change out the motor, as 3 phase motors usually have more torque.  A VFD or rotary phase converter would be my first choice.  The nice thing about RPC's is that you can get a larger unit and feed a three phase load center with it.  Then you can hardwire your equipment to the load center and have circuit breaker protection.  

My main concern with that jointer would be the flatness of the in and out feed tables (they look a little thin).  

Definitely plan on adding a 1hp power feeder to it - will make life much more pleasant.

[Brad_bb]

How would you recommend to check flatness/twist of the in and outfeed tables?  

[Southside]

Like the others said - plenty of HP - my 20" planer with traditional knives runs a 5 hp single phase and will take off 3/16" with no problem in dry wood.  

[Don P]

Flatness is a straightedge on the tables, then diagonally across them each way. Then project from the rear table over the front and check for consistent gap under the straightedge on the front table. A good long level works for that. This checks that the tables are in the same flat plane in relation to one another, neither running over a hill or down into a valley.

For twist use winding sticks, 2 straightedges one at the rear of the table perpendicular to it, one at the front. While one person holds them go down and sight them, they should plane in. then do the same for the other table. Then one on the front table and one on the rear table. Then do the same checks for the fence.

winding sticks are a good way to check timbers for twist as well, one at each end. Basically it magnifies the twist by being a couple of feet long and gives your eye 2 lines to home in on instead of looking down the entire plane.

[Brad_bb]

My electrician finally got back to me.  Said that a VFD would cost too much.  He said by the time we got a phase converter, installed, and a starter for the motor, probably have $2500 in it.  

So I'm apt to shop around and see if I can find a single phase unit and see how much it costs.

A new grizzly 12" 3hp single phase with spiral head is $3300. That is less than the money I'd have in that 3phase used one ($900+$2500). Any reason I shouldn't look at one like this?  Any feedback welcome.

A powermatic of same specs is $7000.  Hmmm......wonder why such a difference?

Laguna unit which is 5hp, not 3hp, is $5000.  

They all seem to have spiral cutter heads, but are any of them Byrd Shelix?  I've heard that's what you want.  I converted a lunchbox planer to Byrd Shelix.  That would be nice if they all shared the same cutters.

[Southside]

What about swapping out the motor to a single phase? A quick search on Ebay shows 5 hp starting at $216 with free shipping.  I just bought a starter for a 3 hp, 3 phase motor, brand new, for $70 with free shipping, your electrician seems to be a tad high on his prices to me.  

[Josef]

When changing out a 5 hp 3ph for single ph motor make sure you don't install a "compressor duty" motor on a machine intended to run for extended times. They will probably over heat under constant rated load as their duty cycle is usually no more than 50%. A "farm" duty 5 hp single phase motor at Tractor supply is just under $500 and will run all day at rated load. I swapped out quite a few 3ph motors last time I moved a shop instead of installing a rotophase and the tractor supply farm duty motors were my go to unit when I had a sale coupon.

[Don P]

Take a look at kbeitz's rotophase, there are old threads on building them as well, I have about 1/10th what the electrician is quoting in one from scrounging parts and DIYing it.

[WDH]

The spiral head with the carbide cutters is superior to knives.  More than superior.  I would not invest in a jointer with knives. 

I suspect that you would not be able to discern much difference in the Grizzly spiral head and the Byrd.

[YellowHammer]

I had the 12" Grizz extreme duty jointer, it was a good machine.  I jointed more maybe a few miles of wood with it.  The cutters aren't Byrd, but are pretty good.

[Kbeitz]

I put a wiring diagram drawing in my post... It's easy to make one. The only difference between my drawing and what you need would be the size of the capacitors. That part is easy. starting capacitor is 70-100 mfd per Hp and the run capacitors is 12 - 28 mfd's / Hp. All the little parts can be got off E-bay.

3 Phase rotary converter in General Board

[petefrom bearswamp]

My understanding is that Byrd cutters are oriented at a true helical angle while the spiral are straight.
Am I correct in this assumption?
My straight spiral planer wont handle much of a cut, It is 10hp..
One fellow I talked to says that this is because the cutters are always in contact with the wood while a straight knife has a millisecond of "rest" between cuts
Is this true or bogus.

[WDH]

I'd say it is bogus.  In my experience, the carbide cutters are superior to knives, and last many many times as long.

[Don_Papenburg]

I think that the straight spiral cutters do a better job on the finish of cut . The angled cutter is not arced and leaves micro lines on the board .  both will take less power and will be quieter than knives.

[petefrom bearswamp]

they do not take a deep cut I can attest to this,
this is with a freaking 10HP cutter head motor
My old Jet 15 inch straight knife would take this spiral head to the wood shed on the same width deeper cut. with a 3 hp motor.
My son and i planed Norway spruce 6" boards 2 aside at 3/32 inch cut at slow feed and if it went just a little over the cutter head stalled.
We were skip planing at 1" with rough sawing at 1- 3/32 which wielded 1-1/16 +/- and under on my WM.
I will agree that the spiral head makes a great cut but I have to put it thru too many times.
Sorry for the rant.
Wish I still had the Jet but want the extra width.

[PA_Walnut]

Spiral cutter benefits:

• Better cut
• No tear-out with problem material like curly or figured (no comparison to knives)
• Fast and easy replacement of a cutter or two if you hit metal
• Rotate cutter 90° for a new cutting surface
• Carbide
• Quieter than straight knives

I've owned several versions of each and would not get a planer or jointer with anything other than a spiral, at this point. Dealing with curly maple a lot, makes it near essential.

Good luck.

[woodworker9]

Brad

My offer still stands to teach you the ropes about 3 phase and running quality machinery in your shop if you're up to a ride to Crystal Lake.  $2500 is ridiculous.  I have machines running on VFD's, so I can show you that, and also 2 RPC's running different parts of the shop.  I can show you how to get set up for an entire shop for under $1K, and a lot less for just one machine.  It does pay benefits to be set up for potential future tasks, but that's up to you.

Let me know.

Jeff

[petefrom bearswamp]

Wow!!
Under 1K
I wish I had known of U when I set up my shop

[farmfromkansas]

If you are considering a Grizzly, I have a G0609 with the Byrd cutterhead, and can flat joint nearly a 12" wide board with mine.  Lost about 1/4" when I put the Byrd on it.  The new ones have a cutter on the edge so you do not lose that 1/4".

[Brad_bb]

farmfromkansas, so what do you do if your board is 12" or 13"?

[WDH]

You can remove the guard and joint the board so that it is flat on the part of the board that goes over the cutterhead.  A part of the face will not be jointed, the part that was wider than the cutterhead, it and will be the same thickness as you started with.  Then, you take a 1/4" thick piece of plywood and using double sided tape attach it to the jointed face.  As long as the other part of the board that did not go over the cutterhead does not stand proud of the plywood, you can run the board thru the planer with the plywood side down on the bed and flatten the top of the board.  Then flip the board and remove the plywood and plane that face.  You can flatten a board that is about 4" wider than the cutterhead with this method, maybe even a bit wider. 

[Don P]

Another way that I've used with my 15" planer and should work with your beam planer is to set a heavy flat, straight timber on the bed and then put the warped board on that. Hot glue shims to center up the twist and any bows and then plane the top flat. Don't go crazy with the glue, just enough to hold the shims and board in place. Use a chisel to pop the board free, flip it over and plane as normal. Not quick but if well shimmed it will face a board.

[Brad_bb]

Hmm, If you're going to all the trouble to have a jointer, I would hate to have to do those work arounds.  Maybe a 16" is the way to go?

[woodworker9]

Hmm, If you're going to all the trouble to have a jointer, I would hate to have to do those work arounds.  Maybe a 16" is the way to go?

I very quickly outgrew my 12" jointer.  I was using the rabbeting ledge and hand planing wide timbers, but finally moved to a 24" jointer when it became available at auction.  Wider is always better if you have a use, and have the space.

[caveman]

I made a sled to flatten slabs that were wider than my jointer.  I shim the slabs and run them through.  It is easier with two people but one can attain reasonably flat slabs/boards alone.

[WDH]

I also have a couple of sleds.  They do work.  A sawmill also serves well to flatten a face prior to planing, like when you are preparing thicker slabs.

[Larry]

A 16" jointer would work well if your making a lot of cabinets. The raised panels often run up to 14" wide but almost never more than 15".

WDH's idea of putting the board on top of a 1/4" piece of plywood is excellent. Something I've never heard of, but should work excellent. I was thinking this morning if I put a lip on the leading edge of the plywood I wouldn't have to use two sided tape.

[Brad_bb]

Typically the widest 5/4 boards I cut are 14 inches.  So a 16 in jointer would cover 97% of boards.  For slabs I have my sawmill beam planer.

[shinnlinger]

I have two helical head jointers in my shop.  One is a JET 12" combo unit that flips into a 12" planer pretty quickly.  The other is a 6" powermatic with an aftermarket  Byrd cutterhead.  The knives interchange and I see no difference in the placement between them or my powermatic 20" planer with a factory helical head.

[Brad_bb]

It's been over a year and I didn't get one yet, but soon.  

Question:  I may have asked before, can't remember....  Is there any advantage to using a 3ph machine versus a 230V single phase (assuming a planer or jointer with same motor strength)?  

Shop is set up for a number of 220V outlets.  I'd need a rotary phase converter to get 3ph.  I've set up for a single phase 220V for an electric motor woodmizer mill and beam planer- J rated fuse.

[TKehl]

If you have 3 phase it is slightly better.  I think the motors last longer with fewer issues.

That said, electric motor issues are minimal.  It's not worth setting up a RPC just to get a 3 phase motor in place.

I'd stick with single phase if you have a choice.  If you buy a machine with 3 phase, it's pretty reasonable to get a 1 phase and and 3 phase out VFD for 3 HP and do that intead of an RPC.

[btulloh]

3 phase is inherently better for motors, but for the jointer you'll probably be running a 2,3 or 5 hp motor and I would go with the convenience of single phase.  If you happen to find a good 12" or larger jointer with a 3ph motor then go with the phase converter.  

[btulloh]

x2 on the VFD for a smaller 3ph motor.

[Nebraska]

I've always wondered  if you could use a separate generator  to add a third phase if   one only needed it on an intermittent basis. Probably not practical just crossed my mind.

[zimraphail]

I have my grandfaters 12.5 inch belsaw thickness planer!  This machine has a 5 hp single phase motor on it and in my opinion plenty of power!

[Don P]

I've always wondered  if you could use a separate generator  to add a third phase if   one only needed it on an intermittent basis. Probably not practical just crossed my mind.

Not really if I'm understanding you right. There are 3ph generators but it would be more expensive to set up and to run than a converter.

[Jemclimber]

I think Nebraska is asking if a generator could be used to generate the third leg in a 3 phase environment. The answer I believe is no, not without some other electronics.  Single phase (which is single pole and 2 pole if using 240v, but still called single phase) has the 2 poles exactly opposite each during their on/off pulses 60 times a second (60Hz). Three phase power has these on/off pulses arranged in 120 degree offset vs. 180 degree offset. I think you'd need a way to synchronize the 3 legs to make it work, and I'm not an electrical engineer that can explain it better or figure out how to make it work.

[Al_Smith]

Usually on 240 volts the run caps can be 7.5-9 MF /HP depending on the line voltage which could vary from 215 to as high as 250 volts .If the manufactured voltage  is low,add more capacitance .higher remove some .What you are doing is  balancing the inductive  lag on the dummy winding .
The voltages don't have to perfect .Maybe 210 - 215  on 240 volt line .
My converter in my shop is 496  line and 490 dummy but that's  going through two single phase transformers hooked up boost  before it gets to the converter  ,pretty darn close if I do say so .
Besides being able to not change to a single phase motor you keep the three phase which operates cheaper plus has more starting torque and as a bonus you now  have the ability to operate other three phase machinery .
Another thing .A three phase motor can almost instantly be reversed .A single phase needs to stop completely to be reversed .

[YellowHammer]

A three phase motor is less expensive if you already have three phase power.  If not and you need to set up a phase converter, it's less expensive to go with single phase for a one time application. 

A single phase motor is more expensive than a three phase motor, but in smaller hp ratings, unless you already have three phase, I would stick with the single phase.  

I ran a 12" jointer with a 3hp single phase motor and it was underpowered when facing wide stock.  

[Al_Smith]

The good ole boy who  showed me the "voodoo " of converters decades ago at one time made a living electrifying oil wells .North west Ohio had the hottest oil  fields in north America until the Oklahoma field came in  but it was high sulfur oil .By the late 40's they had got down to "strippers " low production wells .Problems arouse with the old stationary  gasoline engines made in the 1890's and it was more economical to use electric motors.
He bought the three phase motors for a dollar a HP and the various capacitors from military surplus for next to nothing .WW2 was over and there was tonnage of components available ,cheap .
Rather than use rotaries he built static starters where you get about 60 percent of the HP from a 3 phase motors .No big deal because you're only paying for 6 HP . 
He did alright at that but he's gone now and very few of those wells are producing .The oil is still down there just like money in the bank if they ever need it .