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Quartersawing

Started by Jacar, January 14, 2003, 05:07:06 AM

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Jacar

Anybody have any idea what would be the expected loss when q-sawing as compared to flat sawing or cutting to a cant.  

I have a customer who wants two 18" white oaks q-sawed and he was wondering how much bd ft he would get.  I got out my intl scale and told him what it should yield but could not tell him what the yield would be for q-sawing.

I am going to try the method I saw posted somewhere around here where you quarter the log, cut the pith, 180 it, saw the back, then 90 it and start q-sawing.   ::)  Hope that is clear as mud. ;D

Jack
Jack Watkins

Bibbyman

Jacar,  are you using a band sawmill??

The search tool can turn up quite a lot of info on quarter sawing using band or swing blade.

Here is the method I've adopted to quarter saw.

Quarter Sawing small log  

A few posts down are some diagrams of how I turned the log into an octagon and then started splitting out the boards.  I used the same method on a large red oak log last evening.  

There are variations on the same theme.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

beenthere

Jacar
I've seen it done that way (what I understand to be what you described), and it works well. In a sense, you are sawing each quarter of log from the "inside out". Measured revovery was very high, like around 90%.

A WM was used, and after quartering the log (through the pith), a bed was thrown on the rig, that was almost the height of the "fence" posts - about 1/2" to 3/4" shy so the posts will keep the "quarter" from sliding off.

Then the saw height (board thickness) was set to cut full 1" , the "quarter" was placed on the bed with the widest of the two faces down, and the first board cut (pith one side, bark edge on the other).

Next the "quarter" was flipped so the widest face of the two was down and (without resetting the board thickness), the next board was sawn. This procedure (flipping to saw the widest face) was used until nothing was left but a piece of bark. The idea was that a 1" wide "board" was salvaged.

All the boards (after drying or before) could be edged parallel to the bark first, yielding almost zero bark edgings (slabs) and almost zero waste. It is true though that the board widths vary from the wide to the narrow, but the clear wood in the outer portion of the log (normally the case) was fully recovered, with none of it left in the slabs. Also true, as Tom stated, that there is more bow because of growth stress that occur as the tree grows (results in tension under the bark and compression toward the pith). Nature of the beast and a thorn in our side. Because furniture is a lot of edge glued pieces anyway, that bow can be "worked with" most of the time.

Without having to reset the saw height (board thickness) for each cut, the production of "all quarter-sawn" lumber was pretty fast.  :)
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

dan-l-b

Jacar,  Here is the site you were refering to :

 https://forestryforum.com/cgi-bin/board/YaBB.pl?board=sawmill;action=display;num=1019309751;#3

I put this and bibbymans in favorites when I ran across them.  Have yet to try it myself, good luck.

ARKANSAWYER

Jacar,
  On a circle mill the loss is about 30%.  On a band mill if you will take some flat and rift sawn then it can be almost none.
  Unless the log is 24" or more I just take the pies and flat saw them to the deck.   But if the log was of good size and the rays are coming out good then I trim off the tip of the pie and then the back and qsaw the pies as well.   Often after the first cuts and then roll 90 edgrees I pull the boards out.  They will bow less if I leave them together.
ARKANSAWYER







ARKANSAWYER

Jacar

Thanks guys,

I am going to practice on an old 6' red oak log tomorrow to work on my technique.  I will let you know how it goes.

Jacar 8)
Jack Watkins

Fla._Deadheader

I, for one, will be awaiting the results. For some reason, I can't get this to register in the ole punkin ?? ::)
All truth passes through three stages:
   First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

Jacar

OK,

So I finally got around to the practice session.  I have been busy the last couple of weeks, and we finally poured a slab to put the mill on.  

I think the test went fine.  The principle is great.  We just had to work out a few logistical problems.  So I will now describe what we did.

I have a TK 1220 manual mill.  We cut 5' long log, from a red oak log that was 12' long.  We had cut this tree about a year ago.  We(my dad(73) and I) kept it short so it would be easier to handle. 8)  It was about 22" at the butt and 19" at the small end.  The pith was not centered, and there was some rot around the edges.  Not a great log, but great for doing a test.

Step 1 was to cut it into quarters.  The log was not perfectly round, do we had a little trouble getting 4 equal quarters.  

Step 2 Lay a quarter on the mill pith side or pointy ;D side up.  Cut the pith out. My logic said the top edge should be parallel w/ the mill.  So we had to figure a way to make this happen since log was irregular.  

Step 3 Turn log 180, lay on flat cut from pith side.  Saw slab off of rounded or outside cut.  We decided we could get at least one flat sawn board if we made two cuts on this side.  

Step 4 Turn log 90 and q-saw until the angle is cut out.  The first cut is down far enough to get a 2-3 " board.  (The widest board we got all day was 4 1/4")  

Step 5 Turn log 180 and repeat step 4, but keep cutting until there is one board left on mill.  BTW we were cutting 4/4.

We got some real nice boards, some w/ a lot of ray fleck.  I wonder though if a log that diameter is worth q-sawing.  We only cut 3 of the quarters and got 9 boards that were 4 1/4" wide, 6 @3+", and 5@ 2+".

Haven't run any numbers yet on what flat sawing would have yielded.  

Hope this made sense.

Jack
Jack Watkins

Kevin


dail_h

AM I MISSING SOMETHING?????
    Why are we making this quartersawing thing so complicated?
1.Saw log in half lengtheise.
2Saw each half into quarters.
3SAW BOARDS OF DESIRED THICKNESS OFF ALTERNATEINGFLAT SIDES UNTIL NOTHING LEFT
3 Make your life simple,owning a sawmill already complicates it enough
World Champion Wildcat Sorter,1999 2002 2004 2005
      Volume Discount At ER
Singing The Song Of Circle Again

woodmills1

dail you got it right it is that simple, yet the logistics of clamping turns the simple into an adventure.  on the woodmizer the first and second cuts means the log stops are below the center line of the log which, on smaller logs causes them to lift.  thats ok if you still get a tight clamp, but may alter the front back center location.  then when sawing the quarters there are no flats to take advantage of.  again if the log isn't huge the clamping force tends to pop the quarter right out.  once all of the pieces are cut each one will have bark on one side and a point on the other so much edging to do.  mind you the final product is true quartersaw and nice.  I do this for my barrel making customer and he pays very well for it.
James Mills,Lovely wife,collect old tools,vacuuming fool,36 bdft/hr,oak paper cutter,ebonic yooper rapper nauga seller, Blue Ox? its not fast, 2 cat family, LT70,edger, 375 bd ft/hr, we like Bob,free heat,no oil 12 years,big splitter, baked stuffed lobster, still cuttin the logs dere IAM

Norm

Q-sawing a log takes me about 30% longer than flat sawing. Mostly from having to clamp the pieces right to get the best ray-flecking pattern. It also cuts down on the number of wide cuts you get out of a log. Most of my customers want wide pieces even though they rip them down later.

On the other hand white oak around here is plentiful and I get calls for it q-sawn but almost never flat sawn. Mission style furniture has really improved the market for white oak, used to be most of the calls for it was to use it for decking and such.

Noble_Ma

I quarter saw the way dail-h does it.  My mill has manual log stops with points on one side.  When the log is clamped from the other side, the points keep the log in place.  The only thing I've found about doing it this way is you really want a large diameter log that has little or no taper. Quartersawing smaller logs really doesn't seem to be worth it from my perspective.

Bibbyman

Everyone else has been having fun quarter sawing so I thought I'd try.    I thought maybe if I had some on hand,  people would be interested in it. I've only been ask to quarter saw two logs in our 9 years of being in the business.


Step one – fine big ugly white oak log.


Step two – knock the ugly off the outside.



Step three – the results.

SO!  I skipped a few steps in the middle.  ;D





Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

Paul_H

Science isn't meant to be trusted it's to be tested

Jeff

I would like to see the in between steps if you have em. I just don't get the opportunity to quarter saw at the commercial mill level. We saw some mighty fine white oak sometimes but you never see rays like that.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

dan-l-b

Good looking stuff Bibbyman  8) 8) I would like to see the in between pics too.  How many sides are on that log anyway? Dan

Minnesota_boy

Dan-L-B
Logs only have two sides.

Inside and outside. :D :D
I eat a high-fiber diet.  Lots of sawdust!

chet

Did I miss sup-in  :P  what hap-in to da topside, da bottom side and da udder-side.  ;D
I am a true TREE HUGGER, if I didnt I would fall out!  chet the RETIRED arborist

Bibbyman

Sorry guys.  I meant to take more pictures but got interrupted and busy and forgot and my shoe was untied and the dowg eat my homework.

About the only thing different I do is make 8 sides right off the bat.  By going ahead and making it into an octagon,  I've got a flat on each smaller outside corner to work with.  To make the octagon,  I put flats on four side like nornal and then tip it up 45 degrees,  using a big carpenter's triangle as a gauge,  and put a flat on the corner.   Then turn and flatten the other three corners.   I also taper sawed it so it really comes out looking odd.  The only consideration is to get 8 flats about 45 degrees apart and most of the ugly off.

In this case,  the log was so big,  and the heart was off center,  I just split it a couple of boards above the pith and we pushed that section off onto the tractor loader forks.  Then I turned the bigger bottom half 90 degrees and split it.  Then pushed one half of it onto the mill loading arms.  I then worked up the one BIG quarter – then the next and then put the other half back on the mill and worked it up.

Once I've got the quarter sawn boards out of the log middle of each quarter,  I take the four outside corners (one at a time) and put them back on the mill with the outside flat down and took the point off.  Then I can stand it up against the backstops and clamp it and make a couple of quarter-sawn boards out of each.  

Yea,   I should have taken a picture.

Here is one I took of the end. Look close and you can see where I split it about 2" above the heart.



Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

woodmills1

Jeff you must be making cants out of the centers if you don't see the rays.  When flat sawing it is only the last few boards through and around the pith that will show good rays.

Bibbyman that looks like a nice way to handle the need for flats, and i think it is ok for big logs, especially big and ugly.  on smaller logs too much material may be lost, though I bet that method reduces the extra time needed for quartering.
James Mills,Lovely wife,collect old tools,vacuuming fool,36 bdft/hr,oak paper cutter,ebonic yooper rapper nauga seller, Blue Ox? its not fast, 2 cat family, LT70,edger, 375 bd ft/hr, we like Bob,free heat,no oil 12 years,big splitter, baked stuffed lobster, still cuttin the logs dere IAM

Bibbyman

This log was already sap rotten so there was nothing lost that any one but worms would want.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

dan-l-b

Again, good stuff, Bibbyman 8)  I noticed a hose for sawdust control, can you tell me aboout it?  Dan

Bibbyman

Dan,

Old story - often told.

Here is the link to that post.  

Dust collection tube mountin for WM LT40

This is how we had it hooked up to our old LT40 and LT40 Super. When we put in our new mill, I just quick stuck the hose on it without the pipe part.  It works so I didn't fix it. As our new mill has Command Control,  having the hose tight aginst the mill was not as important.  With a manual mill,  you were always walking around the sawhead to turn and clamp, etc. Having the tube up close to the head was a real benefit.

Lots of good ideas posted here. You'll probably have a couple to add.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

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