Timber frame and ICF?

[rangeroad]

Wondering if anyone out there has done an ICF walkout basement with a timber frame up top? We're sketching out a 1600 sq ft design and would love to be able to do this. Any experience/insights appreciated.

[Raider Bill]

I built a 2000 sqft ICF house with 2 OHDoors out the bottom. 
ICF to the top of second floor.
No timber frame though.

[logman]

I put up a timber frame in Georgia 2 summers ago that was on an ICF basement.  

[Jim_Rogers]

I would suggest you follow the ICF company installation guide. 
And as well add vertical rebar directly under any post locations to help support that "point" load.

Jim Rogers

[rangeroad]

I put up a timber frame in Georgia 2 summers ago that was on an ICF basement.  

Very cool... any photos or words of wisdom to share? 

[logman]

I have a very hard time figuring out how to post pictures on here.  I've done it but not often enough to make it easy.  Its on my Facebook page M&K Timber Works.  I posted it on there Nov 15 2020.  

[flyingparks]

ICFs are good for a multitude of reasons, but they also have their short comings. Depending on the size of the ICF core, you will most likely have "beef up" the areas around the timber posts, since those posts will be transferring significant load to the concrete underneath them. This means having to modify the ICFs and creating pilasters. ICF's are great, but when you need to modify them they require a lot more bracing. A LOT MORE. My two cents

[red]

YouTube channel Pure Living for Life built a timber frame on a ICF foundation about 2 years ago 

[Don P]

If I could like the above twice I'd do it.
Like these guys are getting at, the typical ICF manuals and specs are for uniformly distributed loads on the wall tops. You are doing concentrated point loads  so you're really into engineering, which, to be honest applies to any "stock" foundation vs TF. You should be able to talk to someone on the ICF company staff... then it gets down to what your inspector requires. But also in that conversation you need to decide if the ICF company engineers are up to the task. I've run into company guys at times that are kind of lightweight when working outside of their "box". At that point if I'm still asking questions its time to find independent design or keep filtering through suppliers. Start that process pretty far out. 

[Rgdsolution]

It's cool to be capable of doing it yourself and it's fairly straight forward. If your in the north they might have you do a four foot frost wall below your footing. When I tried I hit ground water in the middle of summer which can be overcome but I chose to go with a hatch instead though I may build out a little and do a sort of walkout eventually after I can seal it up good. Don't forget about the doorway head height, mine turned into a gnome door after my slab was poured -not really -but lower than typical. The foam inside makes it tough to finish unless you stucco or Sheetrock but your supposed to for fire protection. Dimple board works great on the outside for protection. Good luck

[thermos]

we did a hybrid post/beam frame sitting on ICF's, kinda a walk-out.

one issue was where, in plan, to locate the 5.5" wide wall framing on top of the 13.25" wide ICF (with 8" core)?

the concept was for posts/beams exposed to the interior (R-30 walls, rainscreen siding, drywall interior). the transition from ICFs to wood-framed walls was at varying heights around the perimeter. 

long story short, none of the options for frame exposed to the interior (double walls, more furring, more inboard bearing points) were satisfactory, so we put it on plates to the exterior side of the 8" crete core. now there are ~ 5" shelves running around on most of the interior walls, and they like it



 


 

[Don P]

Cool, so is this pic late day... are we looking at the west end and south side? Kind of a reversed saltbox for a solar panel roof? That's a neat spin, literally 180. Or, I'm seeing it all wrong  :D.

We had something kind of similar. I had precast walls with TF on top flush to the outside of the foundation. There was to be 4" thick veneer stone, non bearing, applied to the foundation and 4" SIPs above on the frame.  Easy peasy. They drew and I cheerfully applied a 2x12 treated plate on the wall top, sticking out 4", we put up the frame, set the sips on the plate and screwed them to the TF. My buddy the retired engineer stopped by to visit, always educational, sometimes in the 2x4 between the eyes way.

So what I had done was set the SIPs on the side of the 2x12 plate, that was running with its grain along the wall, in engineering speak with the load of the sips, siding and windows yet to come I had created tension perp in the plate, tension perpendicular to grain. Unpredictably weak, there are no design values because that type of loading is forbidden. Technically my load path was through the screws in the  SIPs into the TF but the connections were obviously not sufficient for that, that data is published I've found since.  I showed him the stamped detail but reality trumps paper, sometimes you have to shoot, shovel and shut up. The mason actually needed 6" with the rock we had and it was tied and mortared to the precast wall, I had to make a flashed water table detail to cover the extra depth at the top and it is sort of "structural" veneer at that thickness, not correct but it won't fail, anyway, more stuff to ponder. A plate in tension perp over air, or foam, is about the same. I think its up to ether in the dozer temp  :D

[Hilltop366]

Don P, this got me wondering if an extended plate like you describe could be reinforced by putting spikes or screws along the edge?

Probably not practical for a 4" overhang but if doing 1" or  1½" for a layer of foam?

[Don P]

I dunno, and at a certain point I'd call it a shear situation. Probably safe to say 1-1/2" out for a 1-1/2" thick plate. Or, if I had used a 4" thick mudsill it would have been fine.

A better way with an ICF would be to remove the sidewall foam along the top outside edge, and form that face, a cell every 2' would be plenty. The concrete would flow all the way out in a supporting corbel. In a precast foundation I can order a corbelled brick ledge installed when they cast it. I would call out the height I want them to put in the shelf that would support brick or stone from ground level up. It is basically a level shelf a couple of inches thick with a 45 degree bottom sloping back to the wall. You can create the same thing in cutting and shaping then forming the ICF foam.

[Stephen1]

The Log cabin in my avatar is on an ICF foundation.  I have a walkout into the basement with a sanau and bathroom in the basement.  It also has a SIP roof. 

[Ljohnsaw]

I'm in the midst of building with a non-typical ICF (Faswall).  My blocks are made from 85% recycled pallets and 15% Portland cement.  They are 12"W x 8"H x 24"L with two cells and internal insulation.  First course set in mortar, the rest dry stacked with #4 rebar horizontal and #5 vertical every cell (installation manual says every other cell).  When accounting for a post, I removed the insulation so I could pour a full 8x8 concrete pillar with #5 rebar (per installation instructions and my engineer).  My basement walls are 10' interior with a two block lintel on the garage door (8'-8"), three on the man door (8'-0").  I put a 6"x14" cedar sill on top, extending 2" out side the wall to support my ridged foam insulation, battens and concrete siding.

My Timber Frame Build