The Forestry Forum is sponsored in part by:

iDRY Vacuum Kilns


Forestry Forum
Sponsored by:


TimberKing Sawmills



Toll Free 1-800-582-0470

LogRite Tools



Norwood Industries Inc.




Your source for Portable Sawmills, Edgers, Resaws, Sharpeners, Setters, Bandsaw Blades and Sawmill Parts

EZ Boardwalk Sawmills. More Saw For Less Money!

STIHLDealers.com sponsored by Northeast STIHL


Woodland Sawmills

Peterson Swingmills

 KASCO SharpTech WoodMaxx Blades

Turbosawmill

Sawmill Exchange

Michigan Firewood, your BRUTE FORCE Authorized Dealer

Baker Products

ECHO-Bearcat

iDRY Wood Lumber Vacuum Drying for everyon

Nyle Kiln Dry Systems

Chainsawr, The Worlds Largest Inventory of Chainsaw Parts

Smith Sawmill Service



Author Topic: Newbie questions on first timber frame build  (Read 596 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline michilius

  • Member*
  • *
  • Posts: 1
  • I'm new!
    • Share Post
Newbie questions on first timber frame build
« on: July 20, 2021, 12:52:31 PM »
All,
I'm moving to a new property in the upper midwest in a couple months and one of my first projects will be building a chicken coop that can comfortably hold 30-40 chickens.  For a while now I've hoped to get into timber framing to build out my homestead infrastructure and I see this as a great starting point.

In terms of experience, I have virtually no construction or carpentry experience (raised in the city/suburbs), so I have to research even the most basic questions.  I have, however, been doing hand tool woodworking for furniture-making for the last 5 years, so I do feel comfortable with skills like layout and joinery on a smaller scale.

I've purchased and read through Timber Frame Construction by Jack Sobon & Learn to Timber Frame by Will Beemer, so I'm starting to become familiar with some of the terms and concepts related to the craft.

Here's my current plan and some questions I'd greatly appreciate feedback on from the wealth of experience this forum represents.

Timber Frame
- 8'x10' sill footprint building with 14' plates to create some overhang on the two shorter sides
- Joinery and design style similar to the 12' by 16' cabin in Will Beemer's book (core frame timbers are 7x7s or 8x8s), with my build having only 2 bents rather than 3
- See three attachments for the drawings



 


 


 

Foundation
- Will fully support the sills 1' off the ground rather than be on pillars.  There would not be any joists or constructed floors in the timber frame since this trench created by the foundation will become a deep bedding pit that will be periodically cleaned out and used to make compost
- QUESTION: This home is near the Canadian border, I love the idea of a real stone foundation with lime cement.  Do I need to dig a foundation down below the frost line for this small of a building?  Also, it's critical that the deep bedding area stay dry otherwise it will become smelly and unhealthy for the chickens, would a lime cement and stone foundation potentially leech water into the inside?

Siding
- The home has board and batten, so I'd like to try this with real white oak boards that will be painted
- QUESTION: Is this siding structure waterproof with the wood boards alone or does it require some type of caulking or other technique to make sure water doesn't get behind the boards?  Is horizontal siding a safer bet?
 
Windows
- There will be a 3'x3' window on each of the longer sides of the building
- QUESTION: Any good sources you all would recommend for how to frame the windows and put in exterior trim with the board and batten in order to make sure this part of the structure is waterproof?

Roofing
- Will be putting a standard shingle roof

Interior
- there will be no interior finishing, just roost bars and a layer box system

Offline Don P

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 8543
  • Location: Southwestern VA
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
    • Calculator Index
Re: Newbie questions on first timber frame build
« Reply #1 on: July 20, 2021, 08:12:56 PM »
Hi michilius,
Frost heave requires moisture and small soil particles. For important buildings we just place the footings below the frost line as a matter of risk management. If the soil is granular or solid rock so that moisture cannot accumulate or act on the soil then it isn't necessary to start below frost depth. If the soil is clay or fine grained it is good insurance. A little bit of lazy can cause all kinds of work later.

No foundation can exclude hydrostatic pressure so the main thing is to make sure that water cannot rise. Drain tile around the exterior with clean gravel all wrapped in landscape fabric to keep soil out of the drainage rock. The tile either exits to daylight downhill or empties into a pumped sump pit. On my current job I'm bringing that perimeter drain inside to a sump as well as and interior perimeter and subfloor drain all to a pumped sump, but that is a house. The interior floor should be above the drain tile level, preferably above exterior grade. The exterior grade should fall away in all directions from the building or at least swaled and away to keep surface water running away from the building. Build on the pitchers mound whenever possible.

This is one area where I think portland based mortar shines. I would use it to lay the stone and to parge any below grade exterior work, then foundation tar paying attention to the intersection of wall to footing. It is best to form a concave cove of mortar at that intersection to help with tarring and moving the water away. Dragging a short piece of pipe along the joint helps form the cove.

Board and batten is fast and easy but is difficult to flash well. Horizontal siding does work better  but there are plenty of examples of old B&B buildings. Good overhangs are the best detail. Planing boards and battens lets everything lay flatter and seal tighter than rough sawn. Full sheathing covered by a weather resistive barrier then the siding is "correct". In other words look at the siding as the pretty cover, the WRB as the water turn and the sheathing as the bracing and WRB backing. Single wall can work but it is a compromise. On a chicken coop a lot of this is over the top, just giving info.
The future is a foreign country, they will do things differently there - Simon Winchester

Offline GAB

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 1961
  • Location: Charlotte, VT
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: Newbie questions on first timber frame build
« Reply #2 on: July 20, 2021, 08:54:02 PM »
Well cared for chickens worth their keep will lay 300 or more eggs per year.
35 (average of 30 to 40) x 300 / 365 = 28.76 eggs per day.
I hope you like quiche and omelets.
GAB
W-M LT40HDD34 w/6' ext & SLR, JD 420, JD 950w/loader and Woods backhoe, V3507 Fransguard winch, Cordwood Saw, 18' flat bed trailer, and other toys.

Offline CJ

  • member
  • *
  • Posts: 44
  • Age: 61
  • Location: Northern Ontario
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm new and green!
    • Share Post
Re: Newbie questions on first timber frame build
« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2021, 05:08:25 PM »
 Welcome to the forum, Michilius. I've been here for a few years myself, but still consider myself to be a newbie as well. I took a few timber frame courses (two - one week sessions) back in 2018. One week was building a rafter structure (16'X20') similar to that of Jack Sobon's build, and the other was a truss build where we constructed a 14'X20 structure with two king trusses at either end and a hammer beam in the centre. Both courses were the best most constructive things I have ever done, and well worth the money spent too! That was the extent of my building prowess. I have made a gazebo in my backyard and some renos to the interior of my house. Other than that, I'm like you. I did buy Will Beemer's book to keep my mind fresh of everything I had learned, and it helped greatly when it came time to build my 14'X18' frame.
Anyhow, I'm with DonP on this. Spend the time to do it right and eliminate possible blowback later on down the road. I'm not sure how deep the frost gets there in the mid-west USA, but here in central Ontario in Canada, the frost permeates through the ground and can get pretty deep depending on how much traffic is compounding the issue. Make sure that you have good drainage and away from the structure. I used a Type II stone 2"- which is ideal for water drainage and topped it with 5/8" gravel.
My timber frame is a sleep cabin or a bunkie as well call it here. I poured a slab on grade foundation with 15" around the sill perimeter and 6" in the middle. However, your build will be for chickens, so you obviously won't be going that route.
I see you have girts in your drawing. One thing I've learned, and if I had to do it again, I wouldn't put them in because they take away from the size of my windows. If you want them, it's your choice. They really don't serve much of a purpose at that size. Are you insulating it? If so, I built my walls on the outside of the frame itself. That exposed all the timbers and everything.
I am going with a vertical board on my exterior, but it isn't board and batten. I was going to go that route, but I opted to go with a vertical board made by Canexel and come it 10" widths by 10' long boards. They are painted with high pressure that is impregnated into the product that will make it weather worthy for twenty years, by which time I will probably be dead. Maybe not? Anyhow, either vertical or horizontal siding will do and if you are unsure about precipitation getting in behind, then maybe think about a Typar barrier which will prevent water from getting in. I'd also go with a pine board rather than hardwood too. Pine weathers nicely. JMO
I know that this was a bit excessive, but I want you to get a good idea from my perspective as a new guy on the block, and getting any kind of insight is useful, especially by those who have experience.
So keep us posted of your progress. I will be keen on tracking your steps. Cheers!










Offline DBoyle

  • member
  • *
  • Posts: 2
  • I'm new!
    • Share Post
Re: Newbie questions on first timber frame build
« Reply #4 on: September 15, 2021, 08:16:38 AM »


Siding
- The home has board and batten, so I'd like to try this with real white oak boards that will be painted
- QUESTION: Is this siding structure waterproof with the wood boards alone or does it require some type of caulking or other technique to make sure water doesn't get behind the boards?  Is horizontal siding a safer bet?
 

Hi michilius
Your plans look just like the one's I made from Will Beemer's book! I'm no expert but I used board and batten or in my case board on board made from Siberian Larch rough sawn. I think the most important thing is orientation of the boards relative to the growth rings taking into account the way the boards will want to cup as the rings straighten out. You can use this to your advantage and arrange so that the boards cup into each other at the overlap forming a tighter seal. My boards overlap an inch to 1 1/2" and inside is bone dry so far. Fastening the boards in a balance of enough nails/screws to hold but no so much to completely restrain any movement.
I have a large number of planks of green oak that came from the beams. I was going to use these for siding but decided against it as green oak moves so much that you might need to allow for this additional movement with oversized holes and washers (at least that is what I was told).
Good luck with your build. This will be a hen house palace.
  

Offline scsmith42

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 5552
  • Age: 61
  • Location: New Hill, NC
  • Gender: Male
  • He who dies with the most toys... WINS!!!
    • Share Post
    • Whispering Pines Farm
Re: Newbie questions on first timber frame build
« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2021, 07:50:31 AM »
Welcome to the FF and best of success on your project.

Excellent advice from others more experienced than I in the responses above. 

What I would like to share is that in your drawing, where your rafters intersect the top plates your design is weak. The tapered end of the rafter tail should begin below the plate, not above it.

As you have it drawn, the rafters will most likely split horizontally above the plates.
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

Offline Jim_Rogers

  • Board Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 7744
  • Age: 69
  • Location: Georgetown, MA
  • Gender: Male
  • Keep your chisels sharp.
    • Share Post
    • jrsawmill.com
Re: Newbie questions on first timber frame build
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2021, 10:40:03 AM »
Welcome to the FF and best of success on your project.

Excellent advice from others more experienced than I in the responses above.

What I would like to share is that in your drawing, where your rafters intersect the top plates your design is weak. The tapered end of the rafter tail should begin below the plate, not above it.

As you have it drawn, the rafters will most likely split horizontally above the plates.
Scott: That is a traditional step lap rafter tail and seat in the plate.
Like this:


 
If cut like this the rafter will not split.
Jim Rogers
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

Offline scsmith42

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 5552
  • Age: 61
  • Location: New Hill, NC
  • Gender: Male
  • He who dies with the most toys... WINS!!!
    • Share Post
    • Whispering Pines Farm
Re: Newbie questions on first timber frame build
« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2021, 11:19:24 PM »
Welcome to the FF and best of success on your project.

Excellent advice from others more experienced than I in the responses above.

What I would like to share is that in your drawing, where your rafters intersect the top plates your design is weak. The tapered end of the rafter tail should begin below the plate, not above it.

As you have it drawn, the rafters will most likely split horizontally above the plates.
Scott: That is a traditional step lap rafter tail and seat in the plate.
Like this:

(Image hidden from quote, click to view.)
 
If cut like this the rafter will not split.
Jim Rogers
Jim, thx for the detail. The way the original drawing looked it appeared to me that the thin end of the rafter extended above the plate.
What you posted looks good.
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

Offline Don P

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 8543
  • Location: Southwestern VA
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
    • Calculator Index
Re: Newbie questions on first timber frame build
« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2021, 06:34:22 AM »
I think the wording in the engineering reference is that a gradual taper approaches full strength. With the more recent versions of the code that is a non prescriptive rafter, nowhere notched more than 1/4 depth, the tail is a problem. I don't have to agree but I do gotta comply, if inspected check first.
The future is a foreign country, they will do things differently there - Simon Winchester


Share via delicious Share via digg Share via facebook Share via linkedin Share via pinterest Share via reddit Share via stumble Share via tumblr Share via twitter

xx
Post and Beam/ Timber frame Cabin Questions- New to timber framing

Started by TimberHawg1 on Timber Framing/Log construction

8 Replies
2722 Views
Last post February 15, 2019, 02:01:04 AM
by D L Bahler
xx
Newbie Introduction - Building a Timber Frame Home

Started by Thomas-in-Kentucky on Timber Framing/Log construction

118 Replies
35201 Views
Last post June 16, 2017, 11:48:52 PM
by red
xx
Timber frame questions

Started by hopm on Timber Framing/Log construction

9 Replies
346 Views
Last post September 05, 2021, 10:03:52 AM
by Jim_Rogers
xx
My timber frame build

Started by ljohnsaw on Timber Framing/Log construction

563 Replies
81089 Views
Last post September 05, 2021, 01:34:23 PM
by Malfestus
 


Powered by EzPortal