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Author Topic: Should I be upset by this purchase?  (Read 1532 times)

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Offline SleepyDog

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Should I be upset by this purchase?
« on: June 22, 2022, 08:01:19 PM »
Recently bought a hand forged draw knife.

$159 total with leather sheath, shipping, and taxes. 

Beveled edge varies and cutting edge is not straight. My first foray into buying direct from a blacksmith but I feel like this is not what should be expected. Thanks in advance.
 

 

 

 

Online barbender

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Re: Should I be upset by this purchase?
« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2022, 11:01:32 PM »
Well personally if I was a blacksmith and produced that, I'd be ashamed of myself. Back when I was peeling logs, I bought a Barr draw knife. Excellent quality, awesome steel and just an overall pleasure to use. If I tried using your's to peel logs it would likely get chucked in the woods, those valleys in the blade would make it very difficult to get a smooth cut. Said another way, if I made the edge on my Barr drawknife look like that I would be just sick over it. I hope they take it back and make it right. 
Too many irons in the fire

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Re: Should I be upset by this purchase?
« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2022, 11:20:57 PM »
You should be disgruntled to say the least.  
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Offline kantuckid

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Re: Should I be upset by this purchase?
« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2022, 06:42:25 AM »
I have three drawknifes, one is a family heirloom blacksmith made version with a slightly arcing blade by design. It's also leaps and bounds the best for peeling pine logs shaving horse duty. The handles angle away from the work so easier to negotiate around pine branch stubs. It will easily shear clean a pine branch stub for appearance when sharp. It's hard enough to stay razor sharp for long hours of use. The other two I bought at sales cheap but they are high quality knives and work great. I have a "thing" for drawknifes.  :D
That knife above can be brought to a continuous edge with care, but perhaps the price point isn't seen in the workmanship but if seriously sharp and good steel it will work fine for bark, a bit less so for something like shaving actual furniture parts-such as a chair rung. I'd use it if your sort of stuck with it and move on. 
I suspect there's lots of wanna be blacksmiths (some good, better and best types ;D) in todays world where many knife makers and old time arts & crafts pursuits.  
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Offline Old Greenhorn

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Re: Should I be upset by this purchase?
« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2022, 07:16:44 AM »
I would contact him directly and immediately. There is a difference between "not being made well" and "being made poorly". What you have was made poorly. His blade shaping and finishing work is quite poor and not ready for public sale. That looks fixable, but there are spots where a lot of material will have to come off and it may require some touch up heat treat work in those areas depending on how he does the re-shaping. The heat treat temper must be consistent across the cutting edge to ensure a long life of sharpening and the tempering and avoid hot or cold (hard or soft) spots must be consistent. He either rushed his final grinds or didn't look at it very closely because he was doing batch work and in a hurry. He may not have the proper machine to put that grind on and used a comprise method. The right grinder (with the right hands) would have at least put a consistent cutting edge on it easily, even if the back taper was a little off. That leads me to think it is an issue of skill level.
 This is just my opinion, you asked. Also, if I were sending it back I would do some careful checking to make sure those handles are secured properly. On a draw knife, because of how it is used, this is critical and you don't want a failure down the road. If his blade looks like that, it would make me suspicious of the handles. That's just me.
 I can't make decent blades. It takes a lot of skill and knowledge. I have some of the knowledge and a little of the skill, but not enough. I have a lot of respect for any person that can do it and awe for those who do it well.
 I wish you the best of luck. Please let us know what transpires.
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Offline Don P

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Re: Should I be upset by this purchase?
« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2022, 07:24:02 AM »

 This is just my opinion, you asked. Also, if I were sending it back I would do some careful checking to make sure those handles are secured properly. On a draw knife, because of how it is used, this is critical and you don't want a failure down the road. If his blade looks like that, it would make me suspicious of the handles. That's just me.

That's the first thing I saw, I'm not seeing a peened button on the end of the handle. A handle simply driven on a tang won't hold up to the heavy use a drawknife sees. If he is new it might be an opportunity to work with him to develop his skills.
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Offline kantuckid

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Re: Should I be upset by this purchase?
« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2022, 08:35:21 AM »
My best one is blacksmith made, has inlaid edge, hand turned walnut handles with sharp spike handles peened over brass washers. My other two are older items, beyond 50 years IMO, and have peened handles but bit less hand crafted from a factory that's no longer there.  
The arc of the blade or straight depending on intended uses, plus the angles of handles all makes for a good tool. The angle is a special aspect as it's not only offset away from the blade the angle of attack is built into the knife as well. Far more complicated tool that at first glance.
 
 
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Offline Old Greenhorn

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Re: Should I be upset by this purchase?
« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2022, 09:27:25 AM »
That's the first thing I saw, I'm not seeing a peened button on the end of the handle....
Yeah Don, I didn't elucidate, but I am 95% sure (maybe more) that those are standard file handles with a driving fit. I buy those buy the box of a dozen fairly cheap. They are made for a friction (drive on) fit and are loaded on the push stroke. They work perfect for that. But a draw knife is of course a pull stroke and that's why the decent knives have a through tang with a washer or cap and a peened over end. If you are really hauling on that knife and 'in the zone' and a handle slips off you could get hurt in a memorable way.
Tom Lindtveit, Woodsman Forest Products
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Offline SleepyDog

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Re: Should I be upset by this purchase?
« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2022, 12:13:57 PM »
Thank you everyone. That was what I was thinking and when I had reached out to him, very politely, he got defensive and passive aggressive, saying I should shop at Home Depot, etc. since I am unable to appreciate the work of a blacksmith. I do not think he is one to take constructive criticism. 

This was on ETSY I'll try another vendor or site. Any suggestions? I would still like to support an independent blacksmith or at least a small shop making these handmade. 

Thanks in advance!   

Offline Tom King

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Re: Should I be upset by this purchase?
« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2022, 12:17:49 PM »
My Father had a saying, "When you have a snake by the tail, the best thing you can do is let him go."  I hope you can get your money back.

There is a guy that sells refurbished old ones in the Classified section on the woodworking forums Sawmillcreek.  He does a good job.  He doesn't put them up very often, and they go fast.  I've bought a couple from him.

All mine are old ones that work great.  A piece of vinyl siding undersill trim makes a good edge protector.   I got that idea from the seller mentioned above.

Offline Lostinmn

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Re: Should I be upset by this purchase?
« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2022, 01:34:31 PM »
I have been very happy with my barr timber framing tools.

If I was in the market for a draw knife, its where I would start!

Online barbender

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Re: Should I be upset by this purchase?
« Reply #11 on: June 23, 2022, 01:53:35 PM »
Yep I mentioned Barr as well. I would imagine one of his drawknives is upwards of $200 now. Worth every penny, though. I don't know if he has a smaller version, but the one I have is made for peeling logs. It is big, heavy, and used with the bevel down. It would be too big for smaller work.
Too many irons in the fire

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Re: Should I be upset by this purchase?
« Reply #12 on: June 23, 2022, 01:56:06 PM »
Too many irons in the fire

Offline kantuckid

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Re: Should I be upset by this purchase?
« Reply #13 on: June 23, 2022, 04:52:24 PM »
Yikes! I'll suggest ebay or a fleamarket antique tool dealer. They are on wide spots in the road in my part of KY. A serious drawknife isn't easy to find but no need to pay hundreds of dollars unless your a tool freak. Maybe I need to sell a few hundred dollars of the ones I never use?  :D
Details aside, the drawknife we see in this thread is going to cut well if it's sharp and made of good steel. Why do you need a sheath for a drawknife? 
When I ran a trapline out in KS a hatchet sheath was essential, but with a drawknife I simply lay it aside when I move my workpiece. 
How was this to be used? like I said, if bark removal it should be fine but honestly a fleamarket drawknife for $25 would do that just fine.   
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Offline Brad_bb

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Re: Should I be upset by this purchase?
« Reply #14 on: June 23, 2022, 08:11:54 PM »
I paid $75 for a sheath for my draw knife.  You don't show yours so I don't know if it's basic or well done.  That leaves $84.  How many hours does it take to make a draw knife (a good one)?  What rate is reasonable for a blacksmith?  If his time is worth only $40/hr, that 4 hours to make a draw knife, make a sheath, make handles, Sharpen the tool, install the handles.  To do it right by hand, it would cost a lot more than $159 and take a lot more than 4 hours.

Lastly, I'd want to try the tool and know how it works.  You typically use only a small area of the knife when you draw.  It's not a chisel where you need a straight edge.  How does it work?
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Offline cib

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Re: Should I be upset by this purchase?
« Reply #15 on: June 24, 2022, 08:19:39 AM »
Recently bought a hand forged draw knife.

$159 total with leather sheath, shipping, and taxes.

Beveled edge varies and cutting edge is not straight. My first foray into buying direct from a blacksmith but I feel like this is not what should be expected. Thanks in advance.
  
(Image hidden from quote, click to view.)
 
(Image hidden from quote, click to view.)
 
(Image hidden from quote, click to view.)

That is poor quality work. I'd take it back to the smith and ask if he would make it right. As a smith I couldn't imagine letting that leave my shop. There are a lot of good smiths out there now and some that simply don't have the quality control on their work unfortunately. 

Offline Old Greenhorn

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Re: Should I be upset by this purchase?
« Reply #16 on: June 24, 2022, 08:34:24 AM »
I think one of the clues here is the appearance of the name "Etsy". I don't think of this as a traditional outlet for journeyed craftsmen. I think of it as a hobbyist/side job/ extra income outlet.
 Probably your guy here watches 'forged in fire' on TV, read a few books, talked to a few folks, and just like many of us in sawmilling, he is learning as he goes. Nothing wrong with that, but he is not quite a bladesmith yet and he should drop the attitude down a bit and unknot his panties.  ;D
 I'd just send it back for a refund and let him look it over again while you find what you want. I guarantee he will re-do that edge when he gets it back. :D If he doesn't he won't last long at all.
Tom Lindtveit, Woodsman Forest Products
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Re: Should I be upset by this purchase?
« Reply #17 on: June 24, 2022, 03:59:31 PM »
Send him a link to this topic.  :D
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Offline customsawyer

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Re: Should I be upset by this purchase?
« Reply #18 on: June 24, 2022, 04:48:42 PM »
It would be interesting to know if it is hardened its entire length. I'm not suggesting you test it as I'm sure that is all the excuse he would need to not take it back. If he is worth his salt he will be ashamed of this work somewhere down the road. That is doubtful if he is as defensive as you say.   
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Offline kantuckid

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Re: Should I be upset by this purchase?
« Reply #19 on: June 24, 2022, 05:08:10 PM »
I'll beg to differ on how much of the blade you'll use. Depends on the use at hand. Yes, I have used one for hours on end and to remove bark, it helps the job/cut to draw at an angle and slide the length of the blade through a swath of bark. Thats not true if the purpose is a wood part thats narrow. 
I've never heard the intended use as yet? 
To fault the guy for using Etsy is off target. How do we know how adept he is at locating the best domain to sell. Either send it back or keep it, whichever is your happy place. It's not the best workmanship but it is what it is. :D 
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Offline SleepyDog

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Re: Should I be upset by this purchase?
« Reply #20 on: June 25, 2022, 09:40:50 AM »
I plan on sending it back for a refund, fingers crossed for a smooth process.

As for my intended use, in the immediate future it is to make pegs. I have seen making an octagonal peg using a table saw but appreciate learning to do the timber frame (8x10 shed) by hand, without power tools - using this as a trial run for feasibility of building an off grid cabin down the road. 

I also see myself using it to debark which I imagine this tool could perform decently well over time unless some others are correct in analyzing the way these particular handles were constructed. 

I am cognizant of the cost demands of building something like this as I am of what it takes to make the clothes I buy and food I eat. I respect those that create and want to support those who do quality work when I can which I was willing to pay a bit more than other options. 

I am also unable at times to differentiate between tools and toys :) When I get into something I like to take a deep dive. I would love to be able to pass on my tools to (grand)kids.

Online barbender

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Re: Should I be upset by this purchase?
« Reply #21 on: June 25, 2022, 11:51:11 AM »
If that is all the better he could do on the edge shape, I really have my doubts he got the heat treating right.
Too many irons in the fire

Offline kantuckid

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Re: Should I be upset by this purchase?
« Reply #22 on: June 26, 2022, 07:09:17 AM »
The handle angles in relationship to the blade are a bit complex on some drawknives and simple on others. On peeling it matters a lot to have your hands away from the log or pole. less so if your making a somewhat intricate chair part. If your sort of green to the tool watching a few videos could prep you for whats best in size and design.
Us guessing about heat treatment from web pics is not easily done IMO. I know this- I've made some stuff not perfect, but it didn't sell for the "arm & a leg" price point either.
Sheath: I took up leatherwork when i went back to college age 30 to keep my hands busy after daily use of them for years-kept me sane, sort of... ;D
I did leatherwork at the kitchen table in a married student housing trailer unfit for a dog.
That said, a functional sheath for a drawknife is an easy peasy first off leather project. Simply go online and acquire a piece of properly tanned leather in a size allowing you to make a rectangle that will cover the knifes blade plus enough on the dull side of the blade to punch 3 0r 4 holes. Tie a short leather strip to each hole and tie up the sharp edge which is what matters for transport and edge protection. Be certain to not use leather tanned such that it will corrode your steel! Oak or oil tanned such as seen with gun slings, etc., is the better choice.
My peg use has been store bought, waxed, oak pegs and far more hand favorable when your hands are in mines shape. I love working wood but making pegs, not on my timeline or age and condition. One of those items machines makes sense? off grid or not your hands do have a shelf life factor, so pick yer parties carefully.  :D PM me and I'll send you picks of my three drawknives with dimensions via email. The oldest one is a really serious tool. It shows hints of an inlaid steel cutting edge from it's origination. Work of art it is, aside from a family Ozark heirloom.
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Offline Don P

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Re: Should I be upset by this purchase?
« Reply #23 on: June 26, 2022, 11:02:34 AM »
Blacksmithing is turning a useless hunk of metal into a useful item or a piece of art. General consensus seems to be that it isn't art. If you aren't handsome you had better be handy. 

It's a simple tool, a knife, bevelled on one side only, with 2 handles.

Is that an edge you would accept on a knife?
Are the handles attached in a way that will hold up to use?
Does it show any signs of him having bothered to try it out?

 Pull hard into a knot or 3 to test the handles and temper. If it survives that decide whether to risk grinding to shape or whether its his to do. If it sheds its handles or rolls the edge he tripped over suitability for the use intended. I have one that came with a log home package. It is too soft to hold an edge so it lives at the mill outfeed for debarking edges, a butterknife would suffice.
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Offline Tom K

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Re: Should I be upset by this purchase?
« Reply #24 on: June 28, 2022, 12:17:40 PM »
As an amateur blacksmith myself, there is no way I would try to sell something of that quality. Unfortunately there are a lot of hacks out there right now that think they are blacksmiths and think their "work" is worth a lot more then it is. The guy who made that is not to the point with his skill & ability that he should be selling his products. There are smiths out there that do amazing work, this guy just isn't one of them.

If he gives you any push back with the refund then point him to this discussion. Also point him to the Barr website so he can see what a true professional charges for a high quality product and what they provide.

Offline kantuckid

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Re: Should I be upset by this purchase?
« Reply #25 on: June 28, 2022, 04:32:57 PM »
Here's a noteworthy thought: This afternoon I was collecting tools & stuff in the shop for my next trip to my remote build site tomorrow. I need drawknives up there as I'm stockpiling logs to build with via a long haul and some need peeled there. I got out one of my knives, it's my 2nd best one but a real dandy. 
 I sharpened it and wrote down the blade stamp information to google now. it's branded as a G I Mix & Co., No. 1 EX. 9.  I found any number of them for sale and actually much cheaper than seems logical. One exact same one is $17.50. Compare that what with a 9" blade, what appears to be some sort of exotic black hardwood handle, properly attached and most obviously a serious made tool and we must ask the question as to why anyone would pay almost ten times that much for a blacksmith made tool-even if the work was superb?  
I have yet another one which has no brand marks but is also 8 or 9" blade and a properly made factory drawknife. It's sort of lightweight compared to the family heirloom knife I use less now and the G I Mix one. 
I would not want to try to match the quality I see in any of my three knifes with a handmade, custom version. That said I do seriously appreciate tools made with skill.

Kan=Kansas;tuck=Kentucky;kid=what I'm not

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Re: Should I be upset by this purchase?
« Reply #26 on: June 28, 2022, 06:58:00 PM »
The Barr draw knives set the "bar" in all of the log building yards around Minnesota, and I would imagine elsewhere. While it isn't something you'd need for peeling a 6" fence post, when you have a yard full of 20", 50' long red and white pine staring at you it's without equal. These logs are peeled not just of the bark, but also a bit of the outside layer of wood as well. Sometimes in one shot, but more often than not the bark is peeled, the logs are allowed to sit for a time and then any weathering is peeled off. They get used hard and hold up to it.
Too many irons in the fire

Offline Daburner87

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Re: Should I be upset by this purchase?
« Reply #27 on: July 17, 2022, 02:43:05 PM »
I have been very happy with my barr timber framing tools.

If I was in the market for a draw knife, its where I would start!
There stuff looks really good.  I would send that one back, and go to Barr as well.
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