A Dark September Morning

[Tom]

Today we, the lucky ones, experienced the act of some of the most despicable, cowardly, vermin to occupy space on this planet earth.  My anger is exceeded only by my sorrow for the victims and families of today's terrorist attack on the United States of America.  That is you and I, fellow Americans, who have been bullied by an insignificant minority of Homo Sapiens.

It is my fervent wish that for once in the modern era we determine the political and or religious factors responsible and annihilate them from the face of the earth with such force that nothing will grow in their land for a hundred years.

Those zealots live in a world of self-imposed war and have for generations.  We are the country that was built by people trying to escape tyranny.  If we do stand for peace then we should step on these cowards with both feet.

[Jeff]

Remember after Pearl Harbor what the Japanese fleet commander said of "Waking a sleeping giant."  Of all the problems our country faces, of all of the differences that exist among us, We know how to come together. That's why the United States of America Stands. Our resolve has no match.

The world and humanity is our friend, whoever was responsible for these acts will be wiped from the earth. They are not human, or animal, and do not belong amongst us.

[Don P]

 :'(

[RavioliKid]

What an awful day!

I can't believe it. The whole thing seems more horrific than anything a Hollywood scriptwriter could come up with.

 :'(

[CHARLIE]

I have run the gamant of emotions from shock, horror, sorrow to anger. People that would do that to others do not deserve spit. I'm in hopes they are found, chopped into pieces and fed to the buzzards. The shame of it is, to find and catch these scumbags will probably cost our country more lives. Lives of men who stand for something worthwhile. It is my hopes that the U.S. will declare all out war on whatever country is harboring these cowards and wipe them all from the face of the earth. May their souls rot in hell. My prayers are for the victims, their families and friends.

[Eggsander]

Words cannot begin to express the rush of feelings over such despicable acts as the events of yesterday. I don't believe anyone can even begin to comprehend the effect that this will have on all our lives for years, maybe generations to come.
I spent some time last night trying to explain to my seven year old son what was going on. His unending questions to me centered around what it means to live in a FREE country, and what is a country if it is not free. While I'm glad that these are concepts that he has desire to understand at this age, I am saddened that at his age he even needs to concern himself with these things, and I am sickened by what brought the discussion on.
I do think we should all stop to consider what our freedom means.
Our thoughts and prayers go out to all who have had there families impacted by this tragedy.

[Jeff]

Thanks Eggsander.
I also have had conversations with my daughter (15). War, terrorism, death, reality all have been a part of our talks. It sickens me that instead of being focused on upbeat things like the upcoming Michigan youth hunt, we now must put our energies into turning negative to positive, somehow.

[Jeff]

On a different note:

Use this thread to discuss your feelings on this. We all have them. And its good to know that as Americans, we still share common believes and morals.

Do not use this thread to point fingers and name groups, or political retoric and ramblings. I just deleted several posts here. If you want to point and second guess and be political do it somewhere else, like another forum far far away. Save this place for thoughts that will help us understand. Most of us here are pretty much like minded. Thats why you are here.

[Ron Wenrich]

From where I sit, New York is to the northeast, Washington is to the south, and Somerset county is to the west.  I'm about 100 miles from each of those points, right smack in the center.

You want uneasy feelings?  At lunch time, there were supposed to be 4 planes still unaccounted for.

My wife called, and her work cancelled, since it is in the state capital area.  She called shortly later and said 3 planes were shot down as they were heading for Three Mile Island (an unsubstantiated rumor).

I was pretty uneasy about working the rest of the day.  By 1:00 the fear was over, as no news was good news.  But the uncertainty still remains.  

We've had this kind of uncertainty when Three Mile Island started to melt down.  It will never be anything you can shake.  

[Gordon]

My prayers go out to all of the families. This will be something we must all live with for a very long time.

At work we locked down pretty quickly after the news was out about what happened. School was also let out early. Quite a day.

Ron I can relate to where your located. I'm just south east of you. That's the bad thing about living near a metro area. Or the capital of the U.S.. Three mile island is close to you, to me right across the Delaware bay is a nuclear power plant as well. The plant is in clear sight of where I work. Depending on how the alarm sounds is what the problem is either for fire, prison break or nuclear meltdown.

Gordon

Gordon

[cointoss]

What a tragic and horrible deed against untold helpless people.  I am certain that before this is finished everyone in this country will be affected in one way or the other, either personally or economically.  At this time, I just pray for the families of the victims and the safety of the rescuers in their grim task.

[Texas Ranger]

I am ex-military.  I have a deep unabiding anger and hate for the perpetrators of this act.  They and their running dog support countries need to feel the wrath of our military, now.  I want to see body counts in their country.  I want revenge in the Biblical mode.  Ten fold.  I regret I am to old to be in the first wave.

An example for the rest of the world.  Terror will beget annialation.  

[Bruce Henion]

Thank you Jeff for correcting me when I began pointing fingers and naming groups, or political retoric and ramblings.  

Terriorism has effected me personally and I have never been able to put closure to my feelings having been involved in terriorist operations when I was in the Navy

As an American and veteran, I am supportive of the armed forces and am deeply saddened by reason events.  Terrorism is a plague on humanity as a whole and must be eliminated.

Everyone has ideas, some practical and others unrealistic.  Some ideas are better off undisclosed as their input merely fatigues the reader.

I do not intend to fatigue anyone with my thoughts and yes, on occasion I have been guilty of assuming others may be interested in my proposals and or reports.  

Americans must be united against terrorism, at home and aboard.   Terrorism has many forms.

I'm for the elimination of all terrorist organizations throughout the world.

During the Iranian crisis, I assisted Rear Admiral D. Chamber's staff, COMCARGROUP THREE manage the OPORDER.  

I too wish I could be among the first wave.  Those of us involved in the Iran hostage military mission did not all walk away.  Our nation lost Marines, Army, Naval and Air force personnel when a helicopter and troop transport plane collided over the desert.

I was in Combat Information Center at the time and I can tell you I wanted to cry but composure was necessary.

The Iranian crisis was about terrorism and I and others at the time felt President Carter let us down when he chose not to launch phase II.  CORAL SEA and NIMITZ planes had complete control of the airspace and every Iranian aircraft launched was escorted two to one and forced to land.

The hostages were eventually released and yes, President Carter's diplomatic negotiations was successful, but at what cost?  

Terrorism has grown throughout the world and has firmly established a foundation that once and for all must be destroyed.

    In behalf of my comrades in arms who died serving their country, others or I will never forget their call to duty and if the world can become united against terrorism, their  death will not have been in vain.

[Jeff]

Thank you Bruce.

[RavioliKid]

I received word tonight that some people I know from my geography training days were on the plane that struck the Pentagon.

*sigh*

On a happier note, a cousin was working in the Pentagon at the time of the attack. She got out and ran 2.5 miles before she was picked up and driven home.

[swampwhiteoak]

Ravoli,
I am sorry for the loss of your friends.

Times like this I realize how insignificant my daily life and tasks are compared to what has went on recently.  When I found out about the tragedy, I was out counting trees, doing survival percentages from the last planting season.  As I got in my truck to go to the next sight I turned on the radio and began to listen to the terrible events that had unfolded.  I drove home listening, still not fully comprehending all that was happening.  When I finally watched the TV and saw the days events, the horror of it all really set in.

Comparison (for what it's worth)

Ten years of war in Vietnam:  50,000 soldiers killed

1 day of terrorism on US soil: 5000-20000 (rough estimates) killed

I'll have to say, watching the images of new yorker's helping each other, and those around the country helping out in any way they can really cements what it means to be an American.  I have no doubt that those responsible will be hunted down like the worthless scum they are.

[swampwhiteoak]

I don't know how many of you may have seen this so I'll pass it on:

Friday Night at 7:00 p.m. step out your door, stop  your car, or step out of your establishment and light a candle.   We will show the world that Americans are strong and united together against terrorism.  We need to reach everyone across the United States quickly.

The message:  WE STAND UNITED - WE WILL NOT TOLERATE  TERRORISM.

We need press to cover this-- we need the world to see.

[Jeff]

Thanks swamp, i'll put that on the news ticker on the home page

[L. Wakefield]

snip

It is my fervent wish that for once in the modern era we determine the political and or religious factors responsible and annihilate them from the face of the earth with such force that nothing will grow in their land for a hundred years.

snip

   'In their land'. Is this land to which you refer the exclusive property of the terrorists you seek to bring to justice? If not, then I assume you will have some justification for scorching the earth loved dearly by innocent people. Or do you believe that wherever the terrorists are, that by their presence, they condemn all within the borders to automatic guilt? I remind you that some of them were living within the US, in Florida. Were you going to scorch Florida as well?

   According to a newscast last night, there was a time when Afghanistan was fighting the Russians, and bin Laden was among their freedom fighters. According to the newscast, at that time we armed him, supported his actions, and trained him. Does that put us on your scorched earth list, or is there a statute of limitations here?

   I believe in justice. I do not believe in hate or hate crimes. I deplore bloodthirst. Just as I would very much want to eradicate disease in a forest that was threatening the trees I loved, but I would not want to burn down the forest to do it.

   Hate is very contagious.       LW

[Tom]

What a feeling of relief in this time of grief to hear our President and elected officials agree with the overwhelming majority of United States citizens.  

It sounds as though we will be gearing up for retaliation.  My heart pounds and my spirits are high.  This is not the time for whimpering nor cowardice nor backing down.  Neither is it a time for the Media to blatantly give away military plans and troop movements for the benefit of ratings.

Care must also be taken to insure that we remain UNITED and not punish, blame or bully our own neighbors because of unfounded anger.  We must, above all things, remain "WE".

This is a time to rejuvenate Patriotism.  Fly "Old Glory" with respect and pride but realize that there are rules for her exhibition.  She's not to be flown in the rain nor forgotten in the dark.  It would be easy to hang her out like laundry but that is not in the spirit of respect.  To show respect for our flag heightens the respect we have for those she represents and that is you and me as well as the fallen.

She is not a sales banner for advertising as some automobile dealers suppose.  She is a symbol, "The" symbol, of all that is good about The United States and a monument to those brave souls who created her, protected her and shaped her;  that includes mothers in the home as well as soldiers on the field and all brave souls in between.

[Jeff]

Man, she's got some points Tom.

Louise you are our voice of reason. I think all of us agree with you, but sometimes lashing out here could be the first step of understanding. Tom and I both wrote our innitial messages within a very short time of the unfolding events Tuesday. I think you may be mistaking anger with hate. Two very different things.

[L. Wakefield]

snip

I am ex-military.  I have a deep unabiding anger and hate for the perpetrators of this act.  They and their running dog support countries need to feel the wrath of our military, now.  I want to see body counts in their country.  I want revenge in the Biblical mode.  Ten fold.  I regret I am to old to be in the first wave.

An example for the rest of the world.  Terror will beget annialation.  

snip

   I believe that the term 'running dog' was first employed by Communist writers (perhaps Mao) in the term 'Capitalist running dog'.

   To my way of thinking, it is a method of depersonalozation, much like 'vermin' which has been applied to native Americans, to Jewish person- in fact to almost any ethnic group which the speaker is attempting to depersonalize in an attempt to justify killing.

   'I want to see body counts in their country'. Were you only interested in a general count, or did you have in mind a predominance of males, or were you interested in children, or not? Were you wanting to get only those presumed guilty, or were you just interested in blood?

   I feel the important thing to keep in mind is 'justice'. Revenge is not the same. We are not a nation trying to support 'Liberty and Revenge for all'.

   I find Abraham Lincoln to be a wise source here. 'With malice toward none; with charity for all'. He had to wage war, but he kept firmly in mind the higher goals of peace and goodwill. This is not a motivation to restrict to within our borders.

   I think we're going to kick some butt. But how it's done will be most crucial for the future of the world. We are already feared and distrusted- and in some cases hated. If we define our goals as 'revenge- body counts- tenfold'-  that is very different from what I hope will happen. It has a horrible echo of the body count we are dealing with here. Are we to carry this hate crime, multiply it, and repeat it elsewhere? What comes next in that gory algebra of death?

   Please think of the human beings who live in those countries and love their country as we love ours. I mean REALLY THINK of the Afghanistan private citizens who have already suffered generations of war- who have land mine damage continuing in their country. Our city has a diverse refugee population. I have worked with their refugees and heard their stories. I have talked with them- or tried to- about agriculture in their country. They have told me how much they have lost. I work with physicians who volunteer for 'Doctors Without Borders' and they are very active in Afghanistan. If you get your way of blood and body counts, how many of my friends will you be killing?I do not excuse terrorist acts on anyones' part- not that of the monsters who attacked us- and not ours.                  lw

[L. Wakefield]

   Jeff, thank you for your response to my first snipped post. I was kind of afraid I would get censored. it has taken me 4 days to work up my courage to post my views- in turmoil as they clearly are.
   We are not the same as we were in WWII. We have more of a connection with each other. Pearl Harbor was as awful- but it was not shown in this excruciating detail to the population. Space shuttle Challenger had this media saturation- but it was an accident. Oklahoma city was presented with media coverage- but it wasn't like this.
   What has happened here has hit every one of us, and we will not be the same. We are more sophisticated by far at this time than during WWII in terms of detecting media spin doctoring and political jockeying.
   I pray we use all of our powers of discrimination to sift through what we see and hear- and look well within ourselves and to our neighbors to offer the best we can in terms of resources. We need inner strength and calm in order meet whatever challenges are to come
  My nephew is in the reserves- and it is a very different time for him this week than it was for him last week. My sons are 18 and 19. For them- if they must wage war- my heart is torn with the extreme prayer that it will be a just war. I do not want them ordered to perform butchery.
   I have worked my heart and my soul into my ground here- and I KNOW it is the same for my neighbors around the world. My views of the forest do not stop at Maine's borders- nor at Michigans- nor at the US or our continent- but extend to the world. I truly want it to be a peaceful world of neighbors who can trust one another.
   The Old Testament does not preach about that kind of a world. The New Testament does. Our actions will be our own testament. God help us.     lw

[Jeff]

I need to be angry. The angrier the better.  Anger replaces fear, they have no common place. The madder I get the less fear I have. Fear can cause paralysis of the mind. Fear can cause you to not act when action is required.

Anger is not hate. As our country moves towards the actions it must take. I will remain angry. I also have a 19 year old son. Fear has no place. I can not tolerate the fear of what could happen to him in a time of war. I WILL remain angry.

[Tom]

I have no intention of perpetuating an argument and feel there is room for ideals whether they are mine or not as long they don't interfere with the protection of my way of life so I say this as a statement not a discussion.

Being a Christian I refer myself to Mathew 5:29-30,  The sermon on the mount describes those actions I feel I can validly express even though events and situations define the interpretation.

There are no Free Men in this country that would deliberately take the life of  innocents the way these terrorist have taken the lives of innocents.  If we go to War it is not for War's sake it is for the protection of our way of life and the protection of our citizens.  It is not for imposing our religion or politics on anyone who doesn't want it.

It isn't right to indiscriminately make targets of innocents for any reason.

Innocent people will die in war without being the targets.  That is the horror of war.  If the Hi-jacker of that plane radioed the tower that he was going to crash into a WTC tower in an hour, I think it would have been right to shoot that plane down in an area that would cause the least loss of life.  Unfortunately, innocent lives would be lost but the price would have to justify it.

If your adversary is mean enough, you could turn the other cheek until you and your children no longer exist.  I think we need to keep that from happening.

[Jeff]

Now there is our other voice of reason!

[Bruce]

Mary Jo Bailey posted a letter from her son on FEDUP Forum titled A voice of reason.  He is on active duty with 19 1/2 years continous service with the Air Force stationed at Dover, DE.

Since I want to be more careful at what I post on the forestry forum, the following link gives anyone the opportunity to review his thoughts.  I have responded to him and he and others on active duty are ready and prepared for what may lie ahead.  His insight and focus makes me feel more secure. http://www.imfedup.net/forum/msg_toc.htm

[L. Wakefield]

   Tom, I looked up your verse, there..that's one that was most vividly brought home when I went through divorce, at which time I literally felt like my right arm was being torn from me- but that indeed it had to be done because otherwise I was going into Hell. I will ponder that verse which has become personal truth for me in this connection.  lw

[Bruce]

Tom:

I don't know if my story of something I was foolish enough to do illustrates anything other then reflection of my past and your post "This is a time to rejuvenate Patriotism,"; but your right, its time to expect our seats of government at all levels to respect the American Flag.

Not everyone understands the value in proper handling of the American flag as you and others do.  Presently I'm not flying an American flag because there's no way for me to personally raise and lower the flag dusk to dawn or for the matter, properly fold the flag as I'm disabled.

Years ago when I left the Navy, I got drunk one night and decided to sleep on the front bench of City Hall of Jefferson, Oregon.  I had noticed previously that no one was carrying for the American Flag flying in front of the City Hall.  It was always flying at all times of every day, even when it rained.  The Flag was dirty and crumpled up.  As I was laying on the bench I thought to myself, why doesn't someone in the city care about our symbol of liberty and freedom.

It was around 3:30 in the morning and I was drunk enough to make a statement, so I climbed the flagpole and took down the flag and used it for a blanket.  I awoke at around 6:30 in the morning and even though the City Police Department was directly in front of the City Hall, with much activity going on across the street as a friend of mine drove his jeep on the bluff, no one at the police station was very observant.  Upset that no one across the street kept a good eye on the City Hall in a town with a population posted for years of 1776 citizens; I walked home that morning, about a two-mile hike through the city and across farms to our farm with the flag draped around me and still no one noticed.

I kept the flag for three weeks thinking surely someone would notice the flag being gone but no one did and no one replaced the flag at city hall.  I had the flag cleaned and folded it properly and contacted a policeman in the city and told him what I had done and that I was willing to return the flag.

He told me he understood why I did what I had done and just to return it where it belongs.  He told me there was no one assigned to raise or lower the flag so the city just flew it 24 hours a day.

When I returned the flag to the flagpole I purposely hung it up side down to see if anyone would notice their American flag flying in correctly.  During this time there was even a town hall meeting that I attended and no one noticed.  A week later I fixed the flag properly.

My mission was to find out if anyone cared about the American Flag in Jefferson, Oregon.  

Up until recent events, the American Flag as been over looked throughout America, by Americans and City governments whom don't have a clue as to the proper handling of the American Flag.

End Note:  It could be argued I didn't properly handle the American Flag even though I under took a self guiding mission.

[Don P]

Ya'll are more charitable than I. I was mad at this guy a ship or so ago, now I'm sad for the lives lost due to our inaction.

Yes, we trained him to throw off an opressor. We did not then move in to opress him, he chose the fight.

I'm pretty sure Florida would have coughed him up if asked.

There's no hate here, but I will survive. He and his followers are incompatible with that, not my choice, theirs.

[Gordon]

On the subject of anger and fear. When we act in or out of anger we will a lot of times act in haste. Without thinking clearly. That is the reason I have a job is because of people who have acted like this in the past. Made a decision out of anger instead of thinking it through. ------We must not act out of anger----

When we act out of fear our survival instinct comes into play. Run Forest run. Sometimes it's better to run to fight another day.

So from a military standpoint we can react in neither fear or anger. We must react with the proper planning so there will be minimal losses on our side. This will be a drawn out way to do it but in the long run it will be the best. This is a time that we must stand behind our president like it or not. We must stand as one. UNDIVIDED and have a well calculated plan.

There will be losses in the upcoming war and each one of these losses has a mom and dad. Some have children, so we must think this thing out and not just go off half cocked.  

To me anyway a quick killing of him is way too kind. He has dealt death and destruction for a few years but has never struck the USA in such a high manner. That is all I will say on that part in a public forum.

You see that is why I didn't do much of a post earlier in the week---why--- because I was darn angry that something like that happened in my backyard. Don't get me wrong I'm still upset but you can't be the judge and jury. Although at times it sure would be nice.

 In the backs of our minds we all knew something like this was bound to happen but none of us wanted to admit it. Nor accept it. Now is a time for prayers to the families who have lost loved ones. The time is coming to get our satisfaction. If there really can be any. It's a sad time for the great USA but remember, we are with no if's ands or buts the greatest nation to live in!

God bless our forces for the upcoming troubles ahead
Gordon

[Ron Wenrich]

I'm not sure anyone is real certain on how this next war is going to be waged.  I get the feeling that people believe it's going to be like the Gulf war.  Go in, bomb Afganistan, and go home.

Not the case.  This is far larger than we can imagine.

Bin Laden has at least 55 cells in 30-40 countries, including our own.  Get rid of him, and someone takes his place,  and he becomes a martyr.  Those cells are blended with the general population.  Mighty hard to tell the good guys from the bad guys.

One thing I am certain of.  There will be more retaliatory strikes in the US.  Those are some of the sacrifices they're talking about.  

Hang on to your hat, it's going to be one heck of a ride!

[Tom]

Through my anger and "Monday morning quarterbacking", I try to remember that we, the taxpaying public, have appointed and hired professionals whose assignments are to design the best means of defense and retaliation

As much as I would like to get into the mix, better judgement tells me to stand aside and await my orders.  There will be aplenty to do for each of us before this is over.

One thing to remember while watching TV, reading the newpaper and listening to the radio is that those people are paid relative to how much of your time they occupy.  That converts into "entertainment value".  If you really want to know what is going on and where we are headed, listen to the people who are making the decisions.

[L. Wakefield]

   You're absolutely right there, Tom. I get so fed up at the 'talking heads' They do their best to tell us how to think. Granted, without media coverage- and the more complete the better at least on the (truthful) facts- we would not know what we know. We would not have had the opportunity to see what we saw. If I think about it happening with a cloak of silence over it- that would be unbearable. People disappearing and us not knowing where they went. But I can do without the spin- without the 'massaging' of public opinion.There comes a point... :(      lw