73 IH dump truck quite.

[nastcat]

I have been on here before about my lastest project, an old IH dump truck. Well, I figured out it is a 73 1910A Single axle with I believe a "549" mated to an automatic trans. When I bought the truck it wouldn't make air pressure. I fixed the compressor by cleaning it out the seeds that were sucked into the intake valves. Next the gas tank had a bottom like a sieve. Welded that up and yesterday put some gas in it, fired it up, took it for a ride. I had to shift it manually but it went through all the gears and after about a mile it quite. Just like if you had reached up and shut off the ignition. It squirts gas into the carb when you pump the throttle. I have spark at the points when I roll it over. Any ideas would be appreciated.

[beenthere]

The truck in this thread?
https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,84757.msg1296193.html#msg1296193

[North River Energy]

Does the small spark at the points become a large spark at the plugs?
Your problem is likely something simple like a bad condenser, coil, or rotor. 
Or a loose wire somewhere. Or a sketchy ignition switch.
The shaft bushings on my 549 are worn such that the point gap varies all the time.
I converted to an electronic ignition just for giggles.

[Firewoodjoe]

Condenser I'd say. They coil should cool down and work. (Sometimes)

[snowstorm]

is it getting gas?? take the air cleaner off look into the carb while working the throttle. if its has gas in the carb you will see it squirt from the accelerator pump.  i went tru this with a 345 right after the gas went to e85. i changed 5 inline fuel filters within 20 min. finally it cleared up 

[snowstorm]

fire to the points dose not mean  you have fire to the plugs. uses a plug you know is good pull a wire connect to that plug ground it crank the motor  and look for a blue spark. there may be a balist resister . white porcelain 2 to 3 inchs long a wire on each end.. if that burns out it would only run while the starter is engaged 

[nastcat]

"beenthere" Yep thats the truck. Thanks everyone for the help I will do some checking this weekend and see if I can narrow it down. I will pull a plug wire and see if I have spark at the plug. I don't think there will be any, so I was hoping that someone would be able to point me towards a problem that would let there be spark at the points and not at the plug. If there is spark at the points, doesn't that mean that the coil is working?

[North River Energy]

^nope.  You can have a weak coil, and a weak condensor, and still have a small spark at the points.
In line with what Snowstorm said about a ballast resistor, check the voltage at the coil.

[nastcat]

Can I use a coil off a 80s car or will that not work?

[nastcat]

"North River Energy" how did you convert it to electronic ignition?

[North River Energy]

You can use any coil so long at it's similar in input voltage to the system in the truck.  Which is to say, some coils require an external ballast resistor to step the voltage down, while others have an internal resistor that does the same thing.
So pull the wire from the positive terminal of the coil, and measure the voltage with the key in the 'run' position.  If it's 12v or battery voltage, the truck has an internally ballasted coil.  If it's between 5 and 8 volts, the system has an external resistor.

Make sense?

As to the electronic conversion, I got busy with the lathe and modified the distributor shaft to take a trigger wheel from a Chrysler system. http://beckmannag.com/heavy-metal/ih-v220/ignition-upgrade I have several Dodge trucks and like parts to interchange across platforms.
Depending on distributor model, you might be able to use a Pertronix system without hassle.

[nastcat]

"North River Energy " thanks. Yes that makes sense and I probably will not invest the time to do a conversion, but you never know, it does sound interesting.

[John Woodworth]

after you check what   the others have suggested, have you checked the coil wire? If the truck should be using a non resistor coil also there are electronic conversions simple to install, Petronics (think that's rite) the brand I've been using that vary in price generally 70 to 130$ and are foolproof.

[Kbeitz]

If it has good spark then check the timing chain...

[snowstorm]

If it has good spark then check the timing chain...

dosent have a timing chain. has timing gears.

[nastcat]

Went back and put the points back in it after we reassembled them and rolled it over the spark at the points looked much brighter blue. We threw the distributor cap back on and it fired right up. I drove it home, still not happy. I am not sure why it quite the first time.

[North River Energy]

Have noticed in recent years that points have a tendency to 'gum up' with some sort of insulating oxide on the contact surfaces.  Clean it off and the points work as they should, but if you park the machine for awhile, particularly in areas of higher humidity, they'll tarnish up again and you get poor or no spark.
Odds are good you had a tiny area of contact, and then the points closed a little off to one side and then no go.
Just another reason to go electronic.

[nastcat]

"North River Energy" I would love to go electronic, but this is not a high priority vehicle. I have a hard time believing that the points are to blame when the truck was running down the road and the engine just quite without a sputter or a cough, but anything is possible. I want to thank everyone for their help and if I find out any more I will keep you posted.

[North River Energy]

I was kidding a little about the conversion. ;D  I did mine mostly for sport. Haven't run my v220 for years, and even then the neighbor has used it more than I have.
If I don't wrap the distributor on my old dozer with plastic when parked, guaranteed it won't start until I clean the points off.
And then it takes off like clockwork.

[whiskers]

 just quite without a sputter or a cough
Just another reason to go electronic. X2

sounds like electrical failure, possibly a loose ignition wire. intermittent voltage loss can be a bugger to find. You might straight wire it to be ready for the next time it quits.

solderless connectors can loosen over time.

check the nut that holds the steering wheel, they give any number of problems. :D

[nastcat]

"North River Energy" I did a little digging and looked up Pertronix electronic conversion kits like "John Woodworth" talked about earlier in this post and if I can figure out which kit goes to my distributor I might just get one. "whiskers" are you talking about wiring a line directly to the coil from the battery and putting in a switch of some kind to make sure there is juice on the coil if this happens again? When we put the points back on we did find a solderless conection that was some what loose, but it looked very clean. When the truck shut down we coasted a good 75 yards, the alt guage was showing a positive 13 volts or better. I believe the motor was still rolling over " automatic trans". I flipped the ignition switch off and back on several times no split, or sputter, nothing.

[North River Energy]

I seem to recall there might have been at least 3 different distributors for that engine, depending on application.  Yours is later production, so that might simplify your search.

[nastcat]

Pertronix ask you to get the number off the distbutor and see if they can match it to the right kit. I'm not one hundred percent positive that it is a 549, that is what I was told, but the owner wasn't sure. I am going the try and confirm the engine identification.

[North River Energy]

Now that you mention it, '73 does seem a little late for that size engine?

[whiskers]

if you straight wire it beforehand it'll be in place when it quits again, saves figuring it out on the roadside. you may want to pull a wire from the solenoid to engage the starter. make sure it's in park, it'll start in any position.

those old wires are brittle and oxidized, easy to loose continuity at any connection.

[snowstorm]

I seem to recall there might have been at least 3 different distributors for that engine, depending on application.  Yours is later production, so that might simplify your search.

prestolite and holley the 3th? delco ??

[snowstorm]

Pertronix ask you to get the number off the distbutor and see if they can match it to the right kit. I'm not one hundred percent positive that it is a 549, that is what I was told, but the owner wasn't sure. I am going the try and confirm the engine identification.

the cubic inch of the motor is cast in the block. it is a v8?? 2bbl or 4? as i recall some of the v8's 304 345 392 478 549. in line 4cl was half of a 392 in line 6 401? 450 they had replaceable liners. just before ih dropped gas motors they came out with 404 446 ans a 537 all v8's

[snowstorm]

"North River Energy" I did a little digging and looked up Pertronix electronic conversion kits like "John Woodworth" talked about earlier in this post and if I can figure out which kit goes to my distributor I might just get one. "whiskers" are you talking about wiring a line directly to the coil from the battery and putting in a switch of some kind to make sure there is juice on the coil if this happens again? When we put the points back on we did find a solderless conection that was some what loose, but it looked very clean. When the truck shut down we coasted a good 75 yards, the alt guage was showing a positive 13 volts or better. I believe the motor was still rolling over " automatic trans". I flipped the ignition switch off and back on several times no split, or sputter, nothing.

got a picture of what you call solderless conection. cleaning up the points with sandpaper or what ever you had on hand wasnt that unusual yrs ago

[snowstorm]

and after setting the point gap your timing light will go to cyl 8 not 1. ih timed on #8. i can look up timing specs if you find out what motor you have

[North River Energy]

Snowstorm,
Was thinking variations on the distributor design, not so much the manufacturer.  Mine has some form of internal governor, and I think I've seen at least one or two others that did not.
The tarnish on the contacts seems to respond best to a small abrasive pad on a die grinder. :-\

[pineywoods]

A few observations from nearly 3/4 of a century of messing with old breaker point ignition systems..Some of them had what might appear to be a governor, it's actually a timing advance mechanism. Advances the ignition timing at higher rpms...On corroded contacts , the culprit comes from 2 sources.. The breaker points have a plastic block that rides on a cam, 8 lobes on 8 cyl engines, 6 or 4 accordingly. That cam needs a smidgin of grease, don't over do it, just a film of grease,otherwise it slings off and contaminates the contacts. The other problem is water, not from outside moisture though. The distributor mechanism sits in a hole in the block that is open to the crankcase cavity. Especially on older engines with worn rings and lots of blow by, the crankcase is full of combustion products under some pressure. That stuff will seep up the distributor shaft and fill the body of the distributor. Yeah, there is a seal, but I never heard of anyone changing it. We don't think about it, but a large part of combustion products is water vapor. Fill the distributor with crankcase gases and when it cools down, the water vapor will condense out, all over everything. Contact points are usually tungsten, which corrodes quickly in the presence of water...
Now for your old IH, I doubt the problem was corroded points. Most likely you inadvertently fixed the problem by removing and re-installing the point assembley.  There is a terminal block on the body of the points, 2 wires, one hot wire, the other goes to the condenser. The brass terminals on those wires only clears the metal distributor base by 1/16 inch. If they get cocked sideways a bit when the nut is tightened, they may actually touch against the distributor base. Add some corrosion and vibration and you get exactly what you described here.
Ben there a few times... ;D

[whiskers]

 
[/quote] got a picture of what you call solderless conection. cleaning up the points with sandpaper or what ever you had on hand wasnt that unusual yrs ago
[/quote]

wire end crimp connectors, terminals, butt connectors. sorry no picture.

[nastcat]

I am now trying to confirm the identity of the engine in my truck. I have attached some pics.

Looking down into the engine compartment from the passenger's side


Lower on the passenger's side


Looking down into the engine compartment from the drivers side


Lower on the driver's side


A peak looking through the dog house


Here is the information off the side of the driver's door

The door plate says CERT. NET  H.P. = 224 @ 3400 R.P.M. and  CERT. GR.  H.P. 251.5 @ 3600 R.P.M.

Any help I recieve will be appreciated

[nastcat]

"whiskers" these are what I was refering to as solderless conncetors.




"pineywoods" I hope you are right and I guess we will try to see how things go with the truck. I am going to throw some new plugs and wires on it, maybe a coil to be safe. 

[snowstorm]

it may be a 478. look on the side of the block under the exhaust manifolds. the ci number should be there and they are about 1". its been a while since i was under one

[snowstorm]

Snowstorm,
Was thinking variations on the distributor design, not so much the manufacturer.  Mine has some form of internal governor, and I think I've seen at least one or two others that did not.
The tarnish on the contacts seems to respond best to a small abrasive pad on a die grinder. :-\

i dont think i have ever seen an ih gas truck motor without a governor. way back when. while  i was going to tec school i worked at a mopar ih dealer. we always checked the governed rpm as part of predelivery. as i recall all the v8"s were 4000rpm

[North River Energy]

Nastcat,
I don't think that's a 549. Mine has the distributor off the front to the passenger side. I'll try to get a picture later today.
Snowstorm, I can't remember where I saw the alternate distributors.  Might have been with some of the literature that came with the truck, might have been on the Red Power forum. From what I have read, that motor was also used for stationary pumps etc.

[nastcat]

Dang it, I liked the sound of "549". Oh well I guess I will see if I can make sure by checking the side of the block for the CI number. Not easy with the butterfly hood. I found the pertronix electronic ignitor and a 40,000 volt coil for this distributor. It will cost about a hundred bucks off ebay. When I was looking for these I used the numbers from the tag on the distributor. The tag gives a IHC logo and the number indicates that it is a holley distributor.

[North River Energy]

You might like the sound of '549' (and it does have a nice exhaust note as well :laugh:) but from what I read, you'd expect to see around 3-4 mpg. I've only used mine as a site truck, so can't confirm that number.

[nastcat]

Yeah, it isn't that important which engine, just that I can make it dependable. From what I read 3-4 mpg is what I can expect out of either engine. I plan to mostly use the truck on my property, rarely on the road.