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How far is too far and to power or not to power

Started by Sedgehammer, July 18, 2021, 03:10:08 PM

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Sedgehammer

Putting in a system like @DWyatt that will go near the barn/shop/house we are building. The new house will sit roughly 200' from the 3 compartment tank and 5 or 6' down hill.  We will put a conventional tank near the house, then run a line from it, to the 3 compartment tank

Questions are do we run this gravity or lift station type. The out flow of the house tank wood be the same that wood go to a leach field. With as much fall as we have, gravity should be fine. With that distance though, is there a concern of build up in the pipe

Necessity is the engine of drive

mike_belben

I thought we were talking electrons or water molecules but i see now its a #2 system.  

;D
Praise The Lord

barbender

I'm not very familiar with these systems. With gravity flow to a tank, you don't want much drop on the pipe when it has solids in it or the liquids will run away from it and leave it in the line. However, once it is just effluent running to another tank, I don't know what the standards would be. These are specialized systems and I think you'd do well to contact a designer/installer to learn from.
Too many irons in the fire

DWyatt

I wouldn't be too concerned about buildup in the pipes. A standard 4" pipe should be run at no less than 1% (1/8"/ft) but ideally you could run 2% (1/4"/ft) or even more is fine. Also, if you are worried about having too much grade in the pipe, you could sink the first tank in the ground an extra foot or two. For maintenance/cleanout reasons, we put 2-direction cleanout wyes spaced not more than 100' apart on 4" service lines. 

If the system is like mine, the 3 compartment tank would be the first tank the sewage enters so I am not sure there is a need for an extra septic tank. Obviously different states have different regulations as to what is approved, I'm just speaking for Ohio. A gravity system is definitely preferred so you have a slower flow into the treatment tank. With a pump, you may not have any issues with average daily flow, but you run into a forward flow issue. Basically you could pump flow faster than the tank is designed to treat and you end up pushing not fully treated wastewater into the dosing tank.

reride82

I'm also curious as to why you'd add a second septic tank. What does your engineer/sanitarian have to say about it? Unless it's already in place and you're just planning on upgrading to a pressurized system it shouldn't be needed. If you have 6 feet of fall in 200 feet you are at around 3% slope which is more than adequate for sewer flow. As said before, 1% is the minimum for 4" pipe as it compensates for any slight sags in the pipe during installation.

Levi
'Do it once, do it right'

'First we shape our buildings, then our buildings shape us'
Living life on the Continental Divide in Montana

Sedgehammer

@mike_belben am talkin water molecules and am shore there are electrons in there also..... :D

@DWyatt & @reride82 not gonna try to make a floater float 200'+...... think_not

This way it's only what wood normally go to a leach field that wood have to make it's marry way down the pipes. I'm a of the thought that this could follow the land drop and not matter on the % of drop. It's just mostly water molecules mixed in with electrons and stuff..... :o
Necessity is the engine of drive

reride82

Floaters float for miles in sewer mains @Sedgehammer all I'm saying is that it's an extra expense. If it gives you piece of mind, go for it. But, it'll cut into your beer fund :D

Levi
'Do it once, do it right'

'First we shape our buildings, then our buildings shape us'
Living life on the Continental Divide in Montana

Sedgehammer

@reride82 agreed they do, but we have a 8'+ drop and that's a lot of elbows to maintain 1-2% drop in 200'. sure, could use 45° elbows so one could snake it if need be. can't dig deep enough to start a constant 1-2% drop due to sand stone. extra tank is only $600
Necessity is the engine of drive

DWyatt

@Sedgehammer Just some maintenance thoughts. If you have to make in the sewer line, it is definitely not the preferred solution, but it will work. I would do something like the picture below. This will allow you to use 45 elbows and give you an option for cleanout wherever you have a drop.

Another thing that I think about. I will preface this with saying that we have several commercial septic systems in operation that work exactly like you are planning with a trash trap then treatment tank, then dosing tank. They work as designed and all the systems have been approved by Ohio EPA. Now the part that I think about. These treatment tanks have microorganisms that live off the sewage and air, with a bulk of the "food" coming from the solids in the raw sewage. If you have a septic tank first, you are trapping a lot of the solids and the bugs in the septic tank are eating the food, presumably less food is making it to the treatment tank. Now I know solids break down in the septic tank and should eventually make it to the treatment tank, but just my thought. We work with enough people that have problems with small WWTPs that have to supplement "feed" their WWTP during low flow times in an effort to keep the bugs alive (Think schools during the summer and camp grounds during the week). So I want to get as many solids as possible to the treatment tank on a consistent basis.

As @reride82 said, we have miles of gravity sewer lines laid at minimum grade (0.4% for a standard 8" PVC pipe) that do not have any issues. With proper cleanouts and thoughts for the smoothest flow of sewage to the treatment tank, even with the drops, I don't think you would ever have any issues. The most important part about the drops and your sewer line as a whole is to make sure you bed the pipe property with stone, preferably compacted, to fight against settlement with all those fittings in the ground.



 

Sedgehammer

@DWyatt thanks for the input

If the sewage has been 'treated' in the single tank before going to a leach field, why wood that matter if it wasn't 'treated' a second time in the 3 chamber system. Cannot that water go straight to the sprinklers already  ?

On the 45° drops with floaters. Can't have clean outs every drop, as the pipe runs under a driveway area. Can have one at beginning, 2/3rds of the way and the end. Haven't done the math on how many 45° drops yet. Are limited to deeper drops due to possibke sandstone in areas. Not going to hammer it 
Necessity is the engine of drive

reride82

@Sedgehammer Most of the effluent that comes out of a septic contains about 50 ppm nitrates which is the pollutant a leach field breaks down. In a septic tank anaerobic digestion occurs to break down the solids and pollutants. The leach field is aerobic to finish off the process. The problem with pre-treating is that you're setting up your second tank to possibly fail because there isn't enough "food" to sustain healthy bacteria and it won't be as effective. By my math, if you're travelling 200 feet at 2% you'll have 4 feet of drop. You said you'd need 5-6 feet of drop, so one drop at 2 feet somewhere along the line would solve your grade issue, either at the top of the line or near the middle. Putting it at the bottom will create a shallow bury depth so I wouldn't recommend that.

Levi
'Do it once, do it right'

'First we shape our buildings, then our buildings shape us'
Living life on the Continental Divide in Montana

Sedgehammer

@reride82 Thanks for your input

The drop will get the laser it today

If the 2nd system doesn't have enough food to do it's job fully, what is the real harm in sprinkling that out on the pasture ?  

When you talk about not enough food. How much feeding wood it require possibly ?
Necessity is the engine of drive

reride82

If the treatment tank isn't working to capacity and can't finish off the effluent, then your effluent will still have pollutants. Worst case scenario is the sprinkled water still contains pollutants(nitrates) and it leaches into the groundwater during dormant growing seasons. If your department of environmental quality or health department tests your discharge and it tests hot, then you could be in trouble. But these questions could probably be best answered by your sanitarian/engineer/inspector for your area. They are the ones that will be dealing with the permitting.

Levi
'Do it once, do it right'

'First we shape our buildings, then our buildings shape us'
Living life on the Continental Divide in Montana

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