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Author Topic: Water well roof in timber frame style  (Read 1393 times)

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Offline kikunak

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Water well roof in timber frame style
« on: July 10, 2022, 03:13:54 PM »
Hello!
I want to build green timber frame roof made of larch for the water well.
I have made a model of beech wood 6'' high and I need several advises for the real construction.








For my mind the worst joint in my model is cross lap joint on the picture below. Due to twist of the timber while drying I am afraid the gaps will appear.




I want to build the frame without any metal fasteners.
Can I make the joint stronger or I need to change all the model for green timber framing?

I need the angle of the roof about 22 degree and overhang (chalet style roof).


Offline Prizl tha Chizl

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Re: Water well roof in timber frame style
« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2022, 03:23:56 AM »
Hi Kikunak, where are you posting from?
To my relatively inexperienced eye your most challenged connection is at the post base. Is this a working well, or “just for pretty?”
It seems like a lot of stress to have that entire structure flexing on those two tenons every time the wind blows or the handle is cranked. Changing the design to four posts could also give you more options for securing those top plates, but adding braces at the bottom could help, too.
If you’re working with green wood, you will need to accept that some gaps are likely to appear, but I don’t see any real problems with the plate as you’re planning it in a structure this size. Good luck!
“The Woods Is My Church”

Offline kantuckid

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Re: Water well roof in timber frame style
« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2022, 07:46:27 AM »
As you wish, but my own objective for an old dug well near our garden spot was to prevent a child from falling in. The well was formerly the source for the log cabin that sat nearby and had no upper structure and was flush with the ground as I found it when we bought this place in 1978. 
It had a couple of old kitchen stove white panels laying over it loosely. Using rocks from the garden spot which had been cabin/barn foundations prior, I layed them up into a 4' circle and built an oak round top cover with a bucket hole door on hinges. The 3-piece bucket pulley frame is treated posts and not very decorative compared to the model above :D
Bats, snakes and the like enjoy my well spot which is handy when we plant tomato & pepper seedlings. Droughts we water the garden from that well which sure isn't right now. 
 
Kan=Kansas;tuck=Kentucky;kid=what I'm not

Offline kikunak

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Re: Water well roof in timber frame style
« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2022, 01:09:47 PM »
I live in Russia, I have just bought larch. Some timbers look like Siberian larch, some look like European larch. Its humidity varies from 13% to 32%.

There will be no wooden bottom. The posts will attach to concrete circle with 1" bolts, so there are no problems with the posts base.  In the future the concrete circle will be covered with natural stone. Of course I'll make a circle oak top cover on the well. The boards of the cover will be connected with dovetail key as in medieval doors.

The roof will be covered with larch shindel.

Offline Prizl tha Chizl

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Re: Water well roof in timber frame style
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2022, 12:11:24 AM »
Maybe someone else will have some more advice, but I think you could proceed as planned, and post pictures as you go!
When I was seven my parents were working hard to create common ties between folks from Russia and the United States. Thirty five years later, I still think it’s important to keep alive the connections between peoples, even when government communications fail. Good luck with all, and hope for Peace in the meantime.
“The Woods Is My Church”

Offline GRadice

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Re: Water well roof in timber frame style
« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2022, 11:55:14 AM »
You might try this type of lap joint, called a "cogged" lap. Usually only one beam is cogged (or stepped) but you can cog both beams. That way when the beams dry there are no visible gaps.

You could also peg the joint through the lap for some additional resistance to twist.

I don't think this would guard completely against twist, and the joint will loosen when the beams dry and shrink. But it would hide the gaps.

I drew the images assuming a 100 mm x 100 mm beams with 50 mm lap and 15 mm steps.




 



 

Gary

Offline SideAffects

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Re: Water well roof in timber frame style
« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2022, 09:43:48 AM »
One lapping technique that would give you some good strength is the dovetail lap often used in log cabin construction:
Compound Dovetail Jig for Log Cabin Timbers - by MJMeers @ LumberJocks.com ~ woodworking community

a simple jig and a chainsaw and you'll have the frame in no time. I don't think you should fear the gaps that form - they can easily be chinked in if you desire IF they are even visible because very little light is going to shine through the gaps (and your eyes will always be over that level of it anyway). No one expects an outdoor well frame to look like a china cabinet.


Offline kikunak

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Re: Water well roof in timber frame style
« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2022, 05:45:06 PM »
The fist step was layout with chalk line (I used ink line from Shinwa), because the posts are twisted very strong (3 year aged larch from last project).

Then I made mortise and tennon joint on post and beam. I made the braces in workshop with planing machine, and I usen my Mafell saw to make tennons at 45 degree. And a hand plane of course to cut the residue.


 

So, I have assembled first post, beam and two braces. There is a mistake in layout, and I see the gap about 1,5 mm between post and beam.



Offline ljohnsaw

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Re: Water well roof in timber frame style
« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2022, 09:46:00 PM »
 :P

I went a more crude route but I have a tremendous snow load (315 pounds/sqft).


 

 

 

It is not anchored to the retaining wall blocks.  There is a piece of drill rod that is bolted (clamped) to the 6" well pipe (set in concrete) that extends up through the roof to support the solar panel that powers the pump.  It has survived a couple winters were it gets pretty much completely buried.  The timbers are mostly heart centered from small logs and have checked pretty badly, but still standing!
John Sawicky

Just North-East of Sacramento...

SkyTrak 9038, Ford 545D FEL, Davis Little Monster backhoe, Case 16+4 Trencher, Home Built 42" capacity/32" cut Bandmill up to 54' long - using it all to build a timber frame cabin.

Offline kikunak

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Re: Water well roof in timber frame style
« Reply #9 on: August 10, 2022, 05:53:43 PM »
Well, I move slowly, but I move.
Posts and beams with braces are ready, and I have started to make rafters.


 

I choosed open mortise and tenon joint between rafters. So, the first mortise is ready.
Roof angle is 22.5 degree, because of chalet style and easy cutting of mortise and tenon (its angles are 45 degree).



 

But I need and advice for the joint between rafter and a plate for the angle of 22,5 degree. I need the overhang of the roof.
I don't know, is it a good idea to copy this joint from my model (3rd photo in the first post).
The joint must be without any metal fasteners.

Offline kikunak

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Re: Water well roof in timber frame style
« Reply #10 on: October 26, 2022, 12:06:47 PM »
I tried three ways to make mortises on the rafters:
1. Drilling;
2. Sawing with japan say
3. Routing.

The small mistake was only in drilling. Other results are perfect.













I thinks it fits tight enough:




All rafters are ready:



Offline kikunak

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Re: Water well roof in timber frame style
« Reply #11 on: October 26, 2022, 12:27:31 PM »
The next were the beams to attach rafters фе 22.5 degree




Checking the orthogonality





Offline kikunak

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Re: Water well roof in timber frame style
« Reply #12 on: October 26, 2022, 12:35:54 PM »
To attach the posts to the concrete ring I used the steel studs.
At first it was necessary to drill holes accurately in the posts and in the concrete ring.




It seems to fit ok




Attaching beams and braces:




And fixing it with pins. I used pins of cumaru wood, which sinks in the water





Offline kikunak

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Re: Water well roof in timber frame style
« Reply #13 on: October 26, 2022, 12:38:15 PM »
Then I attached beams for rafters




And rafters at the end









Offline kikunak

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Re: Water well roof in timber frame style
« Reply #14 on: October 26, 2022, 12:43:05 PM »
The next step was cutting lap joints on the rafters for the purlins








And very small cut on the purlins for correct posotioning




The roof purlins are ready




Offline kikunak

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Re: Water well roof in timber frame style
« Reply #15 on: October 26, 2022, 12:50:59 PM »
I used the larch shingles for roof coverage. They are 40 cm (1' and 3.75'') long.




The coverage must consist of 3 layers. The start layer is ready (it is 20 cm - 8'' long).




Try-on of 3 layers




So, the half of the roof is ready




And the entire roof




Offline kikunak

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Re: Water well roof in timber frame style
« Reply #16 on: October 26, 2022, 12:54:45 PM »
The last step in this season was setting up the roof ridge. It was made of the same shingles, but laid in the other direction





Offline kikunak

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Re: Water well roof in timber frame style
« Reply #17 on: October 26, 2022, 01:00:36 PM »
The next year I plan to cover the concrete ring with natural stone, to make the cover for the well, and make the bucket winch. It may be, I buy the antique bucket.
And here are some photos of the well
















Offline Tom King

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Re: Water well roof in timber frame style
« Reply #18 on: October 26, 2022, 01:11:47 PM »
Looks great!

Offline Jim_Rogers

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Re: Water well roof in timber frame style
« Reply #19 on: October 26, 2022, 07:47:53 PM »
Nice job.

Jim Rogers
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
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