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Author Topic: Beginner 24x40 in Southern Vermont  (Read 2973 times)

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Offline Don P

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Re: Beginner 24x40 in Southern Vermont
« Reply #20 on: August 23, 2022, 10:58:58 PM »
I'm getting a pass with 8x12 top chords.

Reading down, the bottom chord has 9450 lbs of tension. You can spline through the kingpost, the connection at each end of the spline to the bottom chord members needs to be good for ~10,000 lbs at each end. You will have the same ~5 tons of force trying to shear the end off the bottom chord heeljoint. This is where a steel rod hidden in the top surface of the bottom chord, running from the heel of one top chord member, through the spline hole and grabbing the opposite heel, would probably be the most secure way to restrain that horizontal truss spreading force.

I haven't sized the bottom chord. The size is mostly aesthetic if it is just a tie, the joints are the bear.

Compression at the ridge ~7500 lbs, make sure there is enough surface area to avoid crushing in this and the heeljoint. Now another rabbit hole. You have serious compression forces acting at something between parallel and perpendicular to grain. We have design values published for parallel and perp to grain only. You need allowable compression at some angle between those two. Google "Hankinson Formula" for an explanation on how to interpolate. There was a good section on this joint, I think it was in the commentary to the Guild's design standard.

Web compression is modest

Kingpost tension. The kingpost is pinched between the top chords at its upper end and is dangling down. It has about 2 tons pulling down on it from the bottom chord when the truss is fully loaded. If you are doing a discontinuous bottom chord tabled and splined into the kingpost I would cant the bottom chord members into a very slight arch during construction so when things are settled in and delected the bottom chord isn't seen as sagging. Functionally that would be fine but a smiling bottom chord makes me sad  :D.

The top chord pass/fail and % of strength interaction. The equations behind that are comparing the axial and bending forces and making sure the timber can handle the combination of both loads concurrently.

From there down mostly compression and column stability checks in the compression members. Really whittle thickness or depth down on something and you'll see these start to lose column stability factor, then fail in buckling as members become too slim to avoid buckling.

I better quit rambling and see what you need next. A queenpost truss is going to have a different set of equations modelling its behavior. The numbers and member sizes you generate for a kingpost truss will not really apply to a queenpost truss.

Check bottom chord for heeljoint shear, the red plane. Use Hankinson the check the notch face for localized crushing. Bisect that notch angle, do the crush math once ;);


 

A spline of interlocked black gum is passed through the kingpost and pegged at each side, i think there are 7 pegs on each side of this one. Lower load and 24' span x 10' bent spacing.


 


The future is a foreign country, they will do things differently there - Simon Winchester

Offline Lennyzx11

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Re: Beginner 24x40 in Southern Vermont
« Reply #21 on: August 24, 2022, 11:25:35 AM »
If you have a common roof rafter system each rafter is small and are usually space out to 16", 18" or 24".
The roof boards (if using boards) run from gable to gable.
If you have a principal roof rafter system each rafter is over a bent. Then there are purlins that run from rafter to rafter.
The roof boards run from ridge to eave.

Principal rafter (I believe) is not part of a truss. Top cord is part of a truss.

Each timber gets its name by the location in the frame.

At the top of this section is a Glossary of Terms. You may need to brush up on those, so we all understand what you are saying.

Jim Rogers
I was confused. I got this from your link is where I assumed that. I understand now, (I think).
CHORD. In a truss, the major uppermost member (top chord) or lowermost member (bottom chord). In a roof truss, the principal rafters serve as top chords, the tie beam as bottom chord.

My plans show a "Principal Rafter" as the top of each Bent and "Common rafters" spaced out over those for the roof. 
Thank you for referring me to the glossary of terms. More good reading that I missed when I first joined.
Lenny
Southwest corner of Vermont

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Re: Beginner 24x40 in Southern Vermont
« Reply #22 on: September 19, 2022, 04:13:50 PM »
I'm getting a pass with 8x12 top chords.

Reading down, the bottom chord has 9450 lbs of tension. You can spline through the kingpost, the connection at each end of the spline to the bottom chord members needs to be good for ~10,000 lbs at each end. You will have the same ~5 tons of force trying to shear the end off the bottom chord heeljoint. This is where a steel rod hidden in the top surface of the bottom chord, running from the heel of one top chord member, through the spline hole and grabbing the opposite heel, would probably be the most secure way to restrain that horizontal truss spreading force.

I haven't sized the bottom chord. The size is mostly aesthetic if it is just a tie, the joints are the bear.

Compression at the ridge ~7500 lbs, make sure there is enough surface area to avoid crushing in this and the heeljoint. Now another rabbit hole. You have serious compression forces acting at something between parallel and perpendicular to grain. We have design values published for parallel and perp to grain only. You need allowable compression at some angle between those two. Google "Hankinson Formula" for an explanation on how to interpolate. There was a good section on this joint, I think it was in the commentary to the Guild's design standard.

Web compression is modest

Kingpost tension. The kingpost is pinched between the top chords at its upper end and is dangling down. It has about 2 tons pulling down on it from the bottom chord when the truss is fully loaded. If you are doing a discontinuous bottom chord tabled and splined into the kingpost I would cant the bottom chord members into a very slight arch during construction so when things are settled in and delected the bottom chord isn't seen as sagging. Functionally that would be fine but a smiling bottom chord makes me sad  :D.

The top chord pass/fail and % of strength interaction. The equations behind that are comparing the axial and bending forces and making sure the timber can handle the combination of both loads concurrently.

From there down mostly compression and column stability checks in the compression members. Really whittle thickness or depth down on something and you'll see these start to lose column stability factor, then fail in buckling as members become too slim to avoid buckling.

I better quit rambling and see what you need next. A queenpost truss is going to have a different set of equations modelling its behavior. The numbers and member sizes you generate for a kingpost truss will not really apply to a queenpost truss.

Don, Can I convert this Kingpost design to a queenpost relatively easily without losing strength and still matching the dimensional outer measurements?


 
Southwest corner of Vermont

Offline Don P

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Re: Beginner 24x40 in Southern Vermont
« Reply #23 on: September 19, 2022, 07:41:12 PM »
Yes, you can build a 24' gueenpost truss that is equally strong.
The future is a foreign country, they will do things differently there - Simon Winchester

Offline Lennyzx11

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Re: Beginner 24x40 in Southern Vermont
« Reply #24 on: September 26, 2022, 10:36:11 AM »
Yes, you can build a 24' gueenpost truss that is equally strong.
I've started working on the redesign of the truss. Same outer dimensions leaves a Rafter length of roughly 15 ft. 
I've been reading through the past posts to gather as much "rules of thumb" and I have Chappels "Timber Framers Workshop" I've been studying.
So I plan on the collar tie at the 1/3  from the top with a purlin located there also. And then queen posts located under the collar tie with a purlin located there. Since these are roughly 5 ft apart so I believe more will be needed to support a tin roof/common rafters 9/12 roof. So I'm thinking purlins with a 24" spacing.
Also struts from the bottom of each queen post to the common rafter having a 53 degree angle at the strut lower and 90 at the top strut to principal rafter with another purlin located there. 
Should the purlin(s) be located above or below the tie in points for the collar tie & the queen posts as best practice to avoid too much cutting of the Principal rafters in one area? If so, 8" between like the post to tie beam advice given elsewhere?
Thank you for the help!
BTW, I've gathered up a Witherby 2" chisel, a Barr 1 1/2" and an unknown corner chisel that appears to have an M on it faintly. 
Power tools added to the regular construction stuff include a Linear link Skil 77 worm drive saw, a Mag77 worm saw, and the latest... A Makita 7401L chain Mortiser in like new shape! All found through Marketplace and Craigslist.
Ordered the two center 24' tie beams and the 8x8 posts at the local mill. 
Getting closer to the big start!
Southwest corner of Vermont

Offline Don P

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Re: Beginner 24x40 in Southern Vermont
« Reply #25 on: September 26, 2022, 09:52:14 PM »
That'll take a picture as it develops.
This is a good article on Queenpost trusses;
NCPTT | Historic American Roof Trusses: II. Queenpost Trusses (2004-11) (nps.gov)
The future is a foreign country, they will do things differently there - Simon Winchester

Offline Don P

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Re: Beginner 24x40 in Southern Vermont
« Reply #26 on: September 27, 2022, 08:31:08 PM »
This is a good explanation of truss design;


I've done a few using the method of joints longhand, its good to understand what is going on but that kind of number crunching is where computers shine. This is from a free program, very limited and so old I'll have to load the pic from my old computer in a minute, but there are others out there.



 

My vertical loads in black hanging from the panel points represent 2000 lbs at each node with 1000 lbs at the supports, notice the vertical reactions at the supports sum to roughly 12000 lbs on the truss. You'll see I entered 20 for each vertical load so add 2 zeros to all those numbers for VERY rough ballpark estimates of compression and tension in the joints that must be resisted. Those same forces are the axial, along the grain, forces within the members. Once you have those numbers you know the forces to resist. With most roof trusses the heeljoint is the highest stress joint. You'll be in the neighborhood of 9000 lbs coming down the top chord and driving into the bottom chord. If it is a level seat cut on the bottom of the top chord it will be trying to slide outward with about 7500 lbs of force when the roof is fully loaded.
The future is a foreign country, they will do things differently there - Simon Winchester

Offline Lennyzx11

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Re: Beginner 24x40 in Southern Vermont
« Reply #27 on: October 31, 2022, 03:44:45 PM »
 <br

And the first load showed up.
White pine. 26 pieces. First bill is 2317.12 with tax and delivery included. The 2ea 8x12x24ft tie beams were a big chunk of that.
First step. Sill plates of 2x8.

>
 

Southwest corner of Vermont

Offline thecfarm

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Re: Beginner 24x40 in Southern Vermont
« Reply #28 on: November 02, 2022, 07:25:23 AM »
Old Ford tractor way over on the right?
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Offline Lennyzx11

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Re: Beginner 24x40 in Southern Vermont
« Reply #29 on: November 03, 2022, 10:35:37 AM »
Old Ford tractor way over on the right?
Yes. It's a 64 Ford 2000 gasoline. 

 
Southwest corner of Vermont

Offline Lennyzx11

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Re: Beginner 24x40 in Southern Vermont
« Reply #30 on: November 03, 2022, 10:52:57 AM »
Day 2 (2NOV22)

Didn't get a lot done today. Some more dirtwork smoothing around the foundation, packing down, and of course picking up Vermont rocks.

I laid the back 2x8s out on the stem wall for the sill to get a picture of how to cut them to have the lapped joints to come under the Posts/Post anchors.


 

Still have to rearrange the shop to be able to work inside with the woodstove when temperatures drop. The ol Blue truck and mowers will have to live out under the lean to during those times.


 

 

Forgive me and let me know if I get too far off topic for you guys. When you work alone (well, it seems in my case), one thing seems to lead to another and I've worked hard most of the day and not one thing got accomplished it appears!
Lenny

Southwest corner of Vermont

Offline ljohnsaw

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Re: Beginner 24x40 in Southern Vermont
« Reply #31 on: November 03, 2022, 11:54:31 AM »
 :P  Looking great.  Love the truck.  I know what you mean about working alone and nothing seemingly getting done.  Been working on my cabin for far too long!
John Sawicky

Just North-East of Sacramento...

SkyTrak 9038, Ford 545D FEL, Davis Little Monster backhoe, Case 16+4 Trencher, Home Built 42" capacity/32" cut Bandmill up to 54' long - using it all to build a timber frame cabin.

Offline Lennyzx11

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Re: Beginner 24x40 in Southern Vermont
« Reply #32 on: November 04, 2022, 07:30:29 AM »
Day 3 3NOV22

Worked on the 2x8 Sills across the back stem wall. I laid the half lap joints to fit under the two center posts. I couldn't really find the "perfect" size for the half lap joint so I decided to make them 8" total with each board cut 4". This goes under the Post bases I'm using and 4 screws to secure it and the joint together are hidden under the post(s). The corner got a full 8" half lap at 90 degrees. 
Cut these with the radial arm saw, kerfing out 1/4" or smaller, then smacking out the waste. I tryed cleaning up with a hand plane but it seemed to get clogged easily with the green pine. I don't have much experience with hand planes so could be operator error. I did have it sharp and set correctly according to Youtube gurus.
So I used the 2" Witherby chisel and the Wood is Good mallet for the first time for me to actually do it the traditional way. It went easier than I thought with pushing and shaving the face down to specs. 
Shut down at dark as wife worked late and me and the blue truck was sent to town to pick up pizza. I had forgot how dismal those old 6 volt headlight are in a good dark!



 

 

 
Southwest corner of Vermont

Offline Old Greenhorn

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Re: Beginner 24x40 in Southern Vermont
« Reply #33 on: November 04, 2022, 08:25:15 AM »
 I stayed out of this thread while you, Don, and Jim were talking all that mumbo jumbo that makes my head hurt. :D But now that you are into the build, you have my attention and I bookmarked the thread. I also just re-read the whole thing to come up to speed (in so far as I can) and I think I accidently learned a little more about timber frames.

One trick I use on those half laps done on a RAS is after whacking out the bulk material, I slide the board laterally under the blade to flatten. Set a stop so you don't whack the shoulder. On long planks such as yours, this is probably not do-able, given the weight. In that case, take a couple of pieces of scrap the same thickness and lay the around the roughed out area and run a router around at your final depth. Last option is to use a dado blade set in the RAS to do those laps, it goes a LOT faster when you have a bunch to do.

In re-reading I just noticed where you are, DUH. I have cousins just north of Bennington, in Arlington. I pass through there a couple times a year to either see them, or on to my other cousins in Marlboro and Wilmington. If I had paid better attention early on I might have been able to help you out with those tie beams but transportation would have been an issue. I don't have a trailer that long. I don't expect to be out your way again until maybe spring, but it's just a tad over an hour from me to you.

Anyway, good luck on this nice project. I'll be reading along as you post from here on out. What is your goal before the winter sets in?
Tom Lindtveit, Woodsman Forest Products
Oscar 328 Band Mill, Husky 450, 562, & 372 (Clone), Mule 3010, and too many hand tools. :) Retired and trying to make a living to stay that way. NYLT Certified.
OK, maybe I am the woodcutter now.
I can work with wood, but I am NOT a Woodworker, but almost.

Offline Lennyzx11

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Re: Beginner 24x40 in Southern Vermont
« Reply #34 on: November 04, 2022, 10:19:29 AM »
I stayed out of this thread while you, Don, and Jim were talking all that mumbo jumbo that makes my head hurt. :D But now that you are into the build, you have my attention and I bookmarked the thread. I also just re-read the whole thing to come up to speed (in so far as I can) and I think I accidently learned a little more about timber frames.

One trick I use on those half laps done on a RAS is after whacking out the bulk material, I slide the board laterally under the blade to flatten. Set a stop so you don't whack the shoulder. On long planks such as yours, this is probably not do-able, given the weight. In that case, take a couple of pieces of scrap the same thickness and lay the around the roughed out area and run a router around at your final depth. Last option is to use a dado blade set in the RAS to do those laps, it goes a LOT faster when you have a bunch to do.

In re-reading I just noticed where you are, DUH. I have cousins just north of Bennington, in Arlington. I pass through there a couple times a year to either see them, or on to my other cousins in Marlboro and Wilmington. If I had paid better attention early on I might have been able to help you out with those tie beams but transportation would have been an issue. I don't have a trailer that long. I don't expect to be out your way again until maybe spring, but it's just a tad over an hour from me to you.

Anyway, good luck on this nice project. I'll be reading along as you post from here on out. What is your goal before the winter sets in?
Hi! we are near neighbors.
I think I'll try your tip on using scrap wood to set up a router sled to clean up better. I do have a power planer and thought of using it also. The router wil be good to use for housings later also. I like using the RAS but it is a little klutzy on this bigger stuff. I plan on routing the edge of the sills to avoid splintering so it's due to come out anyway.

As far as goals, like everyone else as far as I can. I'd like to get those two tie beams laid out, cut, and up in the air if at all possible. The rest I have plans on sliding them in the walk in door to the wood heated shop with a tarp curtain and work on one end at a time. We will see. I know that raising bents are the best way but with the 4 ft stem wall on the back vs the flush front and picking those bents up with my tractor alone, It may work out better to "stick" build those one piece at a time.
Southwest corner of Vermont

Offline Don P

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Re: Beginner 24x40 in Southern Vermont
« Reply #35 on: November 04, 2022, 09:25:31 PM »
If I have my drawknife handy, most of the time I'll kerf fairly close together and then drop the drawknife in one of the kerfs and twist to lay the slivers over then pull and clean the face. turn around and clean the remainder. But I'll use a slick or chisel or sanding disc on a grinder, or sanding belt stretched over a thin board. If you are sanding you are done cutting. Fine technique is secondary to getting the result needed to keep going. When the grain damns every other approach remember getting the surface needed is the goal. I love watching third world workers, often they don't do anything "right" and if results matter a good many can spank most of us  :D.

I'm hoping I remembered to say those 2x8's should be treated. It also wouldn't hurt to put sill seal between them and the concrete wall.

The future is a foreign country, they will do things differently there - Simon Winchester

Offline thecfarm

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Re: Beginner 24x40 in Southern Vermont
« Reply #36 on: November 05, 2022, 09:20:23 AM »
All is looking good.
Does take time working alone.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Offline Lennyzx11

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Re: Beginner 24x40 in Southern Vermont
« Reply #37 on: November 07, 2022, 06:47:28 AM »

7NOV22
Good morning everyone. Nothing got done Saturday. Had to rake leaves and mow for what I hope is the last time for the season.
Sunday I rearranged the shop to be able to do work inside through the winter. 

First Post! Everything went absolutely not a hitch Perfect!
Not....

We're not going to get too much into it, suffice to say that the first diminished haunch mortise didn't go as wanted.

After laying out the tenon on the top per Jim's directions, I cut it out fairly easily with the wormdrive saw.
Then cleaned it up with the drawknife I've had for years as a wall hanger per DonPs recommendation. Nice and easy work. Now I have to sharpen the drawknife razor sharp. Hanging on the wall 20 years after picking it up in a garage sale long ago for wall art didn't do it. Who woulda thought?

I then cut the first mortise with the Makita chain mortiser. 
First unforeseen issue. The mortiser didn't quite go through the 8x8 post for a through mortise.
No problem. with the layout off the Reference face as instructed it was simple to flip the post over and clean the remainder out. And it all lined up! 

Then I screwed up but I think it's saveable. I was trying to figure out how to use power tools to cut the angled portions of the dovetail as I didn't quite trust being able to hold the slope as required by hand chisel. (and yeah kinda lazy) I found that the LinearLink saw (like a Prazi Beam cutter) would cut an angle inside with the table dropped all the way down. 
Luckily, this was near close to Jim's instructions to have 2" of "flare" on the outer end. It cuts at about 1 3/4". Then I hand chiseled to spec.

And then the fight started... 
Somehow I didn't account for that 2" drop into the seated position during layout. Thought I did.
 I cut a template of one of the 2x8 sill offcuts and bandsawed it to shape and played with it for a couple of hours. But nope. no matter how much I keep messing with it, the tie beam will be too low from original plan so all of them will be low to match. 
This sucks. But wait! At two in the morning, I realized that I can cut the tenon off the top and it's shoulders and bring everything in relation to each other as it should be. The post was longer than needed and I hadn't cut it off yet so I get to stretch it at the bottom. Yay me...

So now for today's assignment. I need to sharpen the drawknife, sharpen the chain on the LinearLink, rethink on how to cut those slopes of the dovetail efficiently(lazily),
And redo the top tenon and shoulder to match right. Then I can cut the wedge mortise to size.

All in all, a good day with a learning experience.
Though that post is still probably dizzy from being rolled over and over. And over.

And to all, a good day,
Lenny

Overview of all the "stuff" drug out to work on the first post.
<
br>
 




View of the template being squared within the mortise in relation to the post in order to see exactly what needed to be done on the slope to fit correctly.


 


View of the template itself showing the supposed tiebeam's layout. (we're gonna practice on posts a bit more for now..)


 


Southwest corner of Vermont

Offline Lennyzx11

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Re: Beginner 24x40 in Southern Vermont
« Reply #38 on: November 13, 2022, 01:51:05 AM »
12Nov22
Not much accomplished today Im afraid. Rain for the first half of the day. I spent time sharpening everything during that time and thinking bout it. 
Then as dark approached, I decided to get something  done. I drilled through the sill plate with a forstner bit and then drilled into the stem wall to set a red head wedge anchor for one of the center wall posts on the back wall.
And of course the **** thing doesnt go in all the way right. I hate these things. With the cutoff grinder, bandsaw, and other assorted stuff, I get the thing out and replaced. Turned into a 2 hour job for one post anchor. 

 
Southwest corner of Vermont

Offline Lennyzx11

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Re: Beginner 24x40 in Southern Vermont
« Reply #39 on: November 13, 2022, 11:40:29 PM »
12NOV22 moved posts into garage before rain started. Got one post done, stood up, and anchored. Got its front mate done with exception of brace pocket. I wanted to read up a bit again on those first. 
Even after being super careful, I managed to cut the dovetail the wrong way in the tie beam joint. Since its a gable end, and will have center support post(s) spanning the 24, I cut the dovetail out and its now a full width and through housed mortise and tenon joint. That tie beam will need to be scarfed over a center or offset post also. 


 

 
Southwest corner of Vermont


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