Permits for logging

[Sawyerfortyish]

Does anybody else have to apply to their town for a logging permit? We never had to but someone moved here out of the city got on the township commitee and passed this rule.A neighboring  town doesn't require a logging permit but you must get a soil disturbance permit for logging as well as putting up a million dollar bond for  possible damage to the road surface at the entry point to the landing. Do you guys have things like this to deal with?

[Ron Wenrich]

It depends where you're at.  In Pennsylvania, you must have a soil erosion and sedimentation plan on site at all times.  You can be fined or shut down.  Usually, they are just cookie cutter types of documents.

There is something like 3000 seperate ordinances at the local level.  Some of them are good, some are bad, and most miss the point.

In one township, you cannot cut more than 3 trees per acre per year.  Every tree must be approved by the township.  I've seen some of the work, and some of it defies logic.  Most of it deals with the aesthetic aspects of land use, and little with actual management work.

Some townships do make you draw up a management plan.  Unfortunately, there is no professional forester to review the plan, and most are developed using bogus data.  One outfit will grossly underestimate footage so they can fall within township guidelines.  Bad business for everyone involved.

Road bonding is normal in areas where there are weight limits.  Usually, these roads don't have the foundation to support heavy loads.  If you use your head when logging, most road damage can be avoided.  Haul only during the dry or cold seasons.  If you are coming onto a state road, you may need a special permit.

[woodmills1]

In NH we must file a document called an intent to cut.  If the impact to wetlands is minimal then the process is fairly routine.  forms give names of owner and cutter, location, access roads, etc.  there is also a for mthat states that best managment practices will be followed and that no major wetlands will be impacted. this is then filed with the town selectman and then sent to the state.  Interesting though, these forms and rules are not for managment purposes but for taxation, you see we don't have an income or sales tax, but a real hodge podge of little taxes.  the tax on timber is called a yield tax and it is rated at 10% of value.  right now for the oak I have been cutting the value is set  at $.33 per bd ft so the tax is just over 3 cents per.  doesn't seem like mutch but since my cut is a year around thinning operation it does mount up.

[Bro. Noble]

I have never heard of any sort of permit being needed in this area to log privtate land.  Thats how it should be in my opinion.

BUT

A few miles from us the hills on both sides of the highway have been peeled.  Skidroads going straight up the steep hillsides were left untouched when the butchering was finished.

You drive along viewing some lovely scenery when all at once this eyesore appears.  Gullies are forming from the skid roads and gravel piles up on the highway after heavy rains.

The guy evidentally had a new skidder and wanted to prove what it could do.  He claims that's what the landowner wanted done.  Local people have let him know how they feel about his methods and I'm sure he won't repeat that.

The problem is that everyone driving down that highway regardless of their background or occupation knows that something wrong has been done.  Some of them (with good intentions) will want to "pass a Law' to prevent this in the future.

We too often have the uninformed trying to regulate the stupid or inconsiderate.  I don't know what the answer is but I'm sure that education and good examples won't hurt.  

Noble

[Corley5]

There will be big problems if anybody ever comes on to my land and tells me I need a permit or a plan to cut my own trees.

[Sawyerfortyish]

Corley the reason for the permit is so the town can keep track of who is doing there forestry management and  will be able to get there property tax reduction for wood land. Otherwise here in N.J. you can't afford to pay taxes on a large farm.

[Corley5]

We don't have such a program here.  After our harvest a few years ago we inquired about a tax reduction from the harvest and were told it might actually raise our taxes because of the improvement to the woodlots >:(.  We didn't say anymore.  We do have the Commercial Forest Act but enrollment in it requires that your land be open to public use.  That's not gonna happen.

[Tom]

Read "Permission" when you see "Permit".  That's the Diplomatic way of making sure you aren't doing something that the Mayor doesn't want you to do.  If you haven't asked permission to cut a tree in what he feels is the correct time frame, you will be punished for your Agricultural venture and be turned into "Single Family Housing". Permits (permission slips in elementary school) are just another way to obtain tax money and to keep citizens in line.

I used to think that the Government was employed by the people.  But, that was in my younger and less enlightened days.

[Paul_H]

But they were the good old days,weren't they Tom?I miss them too.

I want to move the mill onto our land in the fall.I went to the regional office to find out if I can.Yes,if I get permission from this neighbour,apply for a variance,3rd reading, blah...... ???

I'm going to drag it on the property,one quiet morning,and start cutting wood.I already know my neighbours don't mind,because I have talked with them about it for the past few years.

[Sawyerfortyish]

Our sawmill started out as a machinery shed at least thats what we told the town. ;D After it was built we put the machinery in. ;) I just happend to be sawmill machinery : that was 23 yrs ago now were grandfatherd and they can't really bother us. 8) So Paul get a permit for a machinery shed if your neighbers don't mind ;) :D

[Paul_H]

Sawyer40,
You mean you need to have a permit to build too? ;)

When I was a kid,I used to like Santa,but now "Grandfather" is my favorite Clause 8)

I couldn't ask for better neighbours than we have.I plan on keeping it neat,and relatively quiet.

[Sawyerfortyish]

Paul I put a roof over my fire wood spliter 4 cedar posts spaced in a 10' square with a tin roof and they had the nerve to charge me 65.00 for the permit and the only reason i got the permit was because it can be seen from the road. When I built my sawmill a 54x 100' pole building they wanted 1500.00 for the permit. >:( I raised H%#L and they lowerd it to 900.00  :.still way to much!!. If you live in a part of the country where you don't need all this BS you should be thankful.  :)This is an example of what happens when the city moves out in the country :(

[Paul_H]

Sawyer40,
I was just kidding about not needing a building permit.They are definitely required here.We have a high snowload,and there have been a few porches,and sundecks wiped off houses from snow sliding off roofs.In 96,several older barns,sheds collapsed.

When I build my shop,soon,I will go for a permit.Our building inspector is a common sense,and reasonable type.The fellow before him,seemed to like confrontation.

Our town is the fastest growing in B.C.  A neighbouring ski resort is the cause.There have been a lot of good, and not so good contractors building houses and townhouses at a rapid rate.I think permits and inspectors are a way to keep things honest,and protect homeowners.(as well as butt covering,on the local government's part)

[OneWithWood]

In Monroe County, Indiana we have quite a gammit to run to acquire permission to log or disturb soil on our own land.  We must obtain a logging permit from the county, a driveway permit from the county or if on a state road from the state even if you are using an existing driveway (state road only) if we live in two of the three watersheds there is a limt on the slope trees may be harvested from (no harvest if slope is greater than 15% - most of the forested land contains ravines that exceed 15%), the logging company must post a million dollar bond and have specific insurance coverages, BMPs must be practiced (one good one!) and the site must be inspected after the harvest.  I am not sure how much of this applies to a landowner harvesting their own timber and milling it on site.  I will be finding out soon.
All this permitting regulation has occurred whithin the last year.

[CHARLIE]

Welcome to the forum Robert Woodling! 8) 8)

[Sawyerfortyish]

Welcome Robert dont you love it when someone tells you JUMP and you have to say may I :D Sometimes regulations are for the good but a lot of times towns are looking for more money and thats what it boils down to. Where im at the town is supposed to inspect the job when complete but they can't afford to hire someone with the knoledge to do so they tryed sending the building inspector :D :D :D what a lost cause he doesn't have a clue what to look for :

[Ron Wenrich]

Not being able to afford someone to inspect is a rather lame excuse for any form of government.  The problem with local government regulations is that they are poorly developed and poorly enforced.  The reason for the regulations is to set and protect community standards.  Its a form of zoning.

There is absolutely no reason that a consultant can't be hired to carry out any on site inspections before, during or after the harvest.  They have engineers and lawyers on retainers, but don't do it with other professionals.  Consulting foresters should help write and implement any regs at the local level.

I once had to write a forest management plan for an area that was totally blown down.  It was a salvage operation.  And who was going to review my plan?  The township engineer.  He just rubber stamped it.

We have a local mill that will greatly underscale their timber.  Not only does the landowner get hosed, but it makes it look like they are taking out far less timber than they really are.  This keeps them within community regulations.