I have a mountain runoff "gully" that divides most of my property from where I drive in.
I need to be able to access the other side with my small (6000lb) pickup truck. Building a bridge to do this will be costly and, I feel, unwarranted since only I will be using it.
Installing a plastic culvert makes the most sense. I have the booklet from FEMA called Provate Water Crossings. They seem to frown on using culverts in favor of building bridges. If a culvert is built, they discourage using more than one pipe.
This is a sample if what I see around my area.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/73260/IMG_5988.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1701532086)
Where I live I see double culvert pipes all over the place. Just two, say, 15" pipes side by side under a driveway. No special entrance or exit features. They appear to work just fine and allow for dealing with shallow, but perhaps, wider runoff gulleys.
So, to get started, if I have a gulley that's 30" deep with the bed around 30 to 40" wide...
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/73260/IMG_5996.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1701532060)
With around 4" of running water after a decent rain or snow melt
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/73260/IMG_5991.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1701532086)
Is it feasable to use two 15 or 18" diameter plastic culvert pipes side by side so as to still
have (the required minimum of) 12" of compacted fill on top?
Appreciate the help and advice on this.
Where you are located can make a difference.
In many places a permit may be required. Check before you dig.
The resource I recommend for landowners working on their roads is Handbook for Forest, Ranch, and Rural Roads: A Guide for Planning, Designing, Constructing, Reconstructing, Upgrading, Maintaining and Closing Wildland Roads. (https://www.pacificwatershed.com/roadshandbook) Free PDF. (https://www.pacificwatershed.com/roadshandbook)
The head zoning official told me a permit is not required. I can go ahead and install the culvert.
Thanks for the booklet.
go for it. the entrance and exit matter more if the water runs fast, like in the mountains of Colorado. It can start to undermine your culvert. We hooked numerous bits of culvert together to make bends ext. the road would otherwise get eroded to the extent that one corner required a 3-point turn of sorts to not fall into a 3-foot-deep bully. At our scout camp in Colorado. Fun in a Fullsize crew cab one ton dually with a 14-foot trailer in tow.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/51041/8DEA6C6A-3287-412C-A971-2632A63B8A55.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1583617899)
no water now but always wet or muddy. when it rains there will be a foot of water coming to this lower spot. We made the bridge 36 feet, from the prev. 20 feet. You can see the ends of where the old bridge was under the new one. this new bridge is 6 feet wide to accommodate 4 wheelers. It had approaches built on each end. prev. you had to go downhill to the bridge, and back up on the other side. now just a slight gradual grade going up walking Right to Left side of the bridge. Without the bridge, it added a half mile to archery and rifle areas at camp Alexander.
Do you have a sawmill? Is there one near you? Looking at how small a span, I'd be tempted to have some massive beams span the gap and be done with it. Something like 8x12, and run some 3/4 all thread to snug them up.
Small pipes tend to stop up easily with leaves and other debris.I have a small stream about the same size as yours and installed a 36" plastic culvert.Most of the time it's overkill but probably twice a year we'll have a gully washer and anything smaller wouldn't handle the flow especially with leaves and small limbs ect washing down the creek.Also recommend getting pipe with smooth liner inside.
My vote is for two "used" utility poles across and deck with 2" White Oak. Bridges don't cause problems whereas culverts overflow, clog up, & wash out.
Your pictures show a perfect example for a 10' or 12' bridge.
Quote from: Wlmedley on December 02, 2023, 12:57:42 PM
Small pipes tend to stop up easily with leaves and other debris.I have a small stream about the same size as yours and installed a 36" plastic culvert.Most of the time it's overkill but probably twice a year we'll have a gully washer and anything smaller wouldn't handle the flow especially with leaves and small limbs ect washing down the creek.Also recommend getting pipe with smooth liner inside.
The problem, as I see it, is I have only around 30" of depth to work with. Digging down and removing the rocks in there will add a few inches... but I will not have enough depth to bury and compact a 36" pipe to at least 50% it's diameter per best practices. A pipe, not properly compacted, will fail the first time I drive my 2004 Ford Ranger over it :'(.
Hence, my reason for looking at using two smaller diameter pipes, side by side, as in my firsts image, to cover much of the bed width.
True, I will need to stay on top of it and clean out the inlet from time to time. However, that issue now exists even without the culverint being there. All kinds of crap land in there from apples to branches to whole tree limbs. Much of that would remain on top of the earth, in fact, after the culvert and would be easier to clean up.
BTW: Yes the culvert pipe I'd use is the double-wall ribbed on the outside, smooth on the inside.
Quote from: Magicman on December 02, 2023, 02:02:12 PM
My vote is for two "used" utility poles across and deck with 2" White Oak. Bridges don't cause problems whereas culverts overflow, clog up, & wash out.
Your pictures show a perfect example for a 10' or 12' bridge.
Great idea. When can you start :laugh:.
Seriously, at my age, which might be about your age, I am in no position to be dragging telephone poles around. I agree the bridge is cleaner but the cost, in body damage, far exceeds it if I have another option.
Quote from: ljohnsaw on December 02, 2023, 12:57:07 PM
Do you have a sawmill? Is there one near you? Looking at how small a span, I'd be tempted to have some massive beams span the gap and be done with it. Something like 8x12, and run some 3/4 all thread to snug them up.
Yes, there are sawmills in the area, but my thinking is similar to the one above.
I also think building a bridge
will require getting a permit, having an engineer design it, and getting the town to OK it. That will take months and in the end they can not approve it.
I would not think a simple line of planks across a 4-foot ditch on your land for private use would be regulated. you can even put tele poles on the sides and do culver and fill with stone and dirt. we have one 20 feet long for 20 years.
If you have the potential for frost in the ground, the "rules" are different.
With two culverts they will have to be sealed between them to keep water from blowing through.
And don't worry about "body parts". I am 80 and offer no excuse. Build da bridge.
How many individual culverts would handle/equal or come close to the volume of one 36" culvert?
Think six 15" culverts will equal about the same as one 36".
Still need the location of the OP to give good info, IMO
If this is usually a maximum 4-inch straight flow as you describe and you prefer not to bridge it, I would not use anything smaller than a single 18-inch metal culvert with a 1-foot berm on top.
Rock rip/rap each end of the culvert.
https://gegcalculators.com/culvert-flow-calculator/
A metal culvert has ribs in it, slowing the flow of water. The smooth bore plastic culverts allow the sand, gravel to go through, keeping the bottom of the culvert clean and smooth.
Around here corrugated metal culverts don't last long.Don't know if it is the water or what but I put one between the house and barn and the bottom rusted out in about 10 years.
The town put a metal one in my driveway.
It was dug up this summer,22 years later. Yes, rusted out on the bottom.
I have no idea what the smooth bore one will look like in 22 years. There was a lot of sand and gravel in the bottom of it.
There is a smooth bore plastic culvert down the road that is nice and clean.
Quote from: doc henderson on December 02, 2023, 03:24:03 PM
I would not think a simple line of planks across a 4-foot ditch on your land for private use would be regulated. you can even put tele poles on the sides and do culver and fill with stone and dirt. we have one 20 feet long for 20 years.
Well, to be on solid ground on each side of this gulley means the "bridge" has to be around 16' long. Remember, I need this to support at least 6,000 lbs of weight.
Quote from: Magicman on December 02, 2023, 06:02:01 PM
With two culverts they will have to be sealed between them to keep water from blowing through.
I have thought about that.
Thinking about using rock dust between the two ribbed plastic
smooth on the inside culverts. Rock dust tends to harden up after getting compacked and wet almost like cement.
The other option is to use cement between them.
Quote from: peakbagger on December 02, 2023, 04:30:08 PM
If you have the potential for frost in the ground, the "rules" are different.
Can you please explain?
Quote from: thecfarm on December 02, 2023, 08:43:43 PM
The town put a metal one in my driveway.... There is a smooth bore plastic culvert down the road that is nice and clean.
The smooth-on-the-inside, double wall, HDPE plastic culvert is the only way to go.
They will support the weight needed, as long as they are buried and compacted properly and they will last a good, long time.
Easy to clean out... if they ever even need it.
I'll add that a single pipe of larger diameter is going to carry more flood water than 2 smaller pipes, side by side. Buy a single 30" pipe or even a 24" pipe. Position it correctly (need to prepare a good bed so the pipe is on a good surface). Like chesterspal say, it helps to compact the material around the culvert. I also agree with him on the double wall HDPE pipe vs metal. Stronger, better flow, won't rust. Keep the ends covered with rock or wood to keep sunlight off the ends.
A large diameter pipe works better than multiple small diameter pipes.
You might consider a D shaped culvert. It is made to meet conditions such as yours.
Quote from: nativewolf on December 03, 2023, 10:26:02 AM
I'll add that a single pipe of larger diameter is going to carry more flood water than 2 smaller pipes, side by side. Buy a single 30" pipe or even a 24" pipe. Position it correctly (need to prepare a good bed so the pipe is on a good surface). Like chesterspal say, it helps to compact the material around the culvert. I also agree with him on the double wall HDPE pipe vs metal. Stronger, better flow, won't rust. Keep the ends covered with rock or wood to keep sunlight off the ends.
Correct. It works out to be 4 times the water.
So, a 30" diameter pipe will carry four times the flow as one 15" in diameter.
I'd go with two 15" side by side since I cannot backfill anything much larger. Remember, I have only a 30" deep opening to work with. I must back fill 12" on top of that 15" pipe or it will crush under the weight of my truck. So, that gives me only a 3" margin of error, so to speak, atop the culvert for back filling.
Another factor for not going with the bridge is... Unless it is raised much higher than the water channel it can be washed out during one of these 100 year floods that seem to happen every 5 to 10 years now. That gets into constructing pillars sunk into the ground with concrete bases and that whole "frost line" deal someone on this site elluded to. Plus the ramps that will be needed on each side to get on and off the bridge with that 6000 pound truck.
Frankly, it seems way overkill for what I have here. With the dual culvert, the water will likely just run up and over and down the other side. If the stream this channel dumps its water in to is down hill, (and it is) it will still end up there.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/73260/IMG_5996.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1701532060)
There will be some erosion of the soil around the culvert pipes but that can easily be repacked after the rain subsides.
I'll throw out another option. If this trench is on your own land and only used by you it may be more cost effective to dig out an entrance and exit slope you can drive through. Sink a couple treated timbers in the ground at the level of the bottom of the trench then plank over it with 3" or better tread to drive across. They used these low water bridges down here for many years down here to get across creeks and dry branches where there wasn't enough traffic to warrant a bridge. It doesn't sound like water volume would ever prevent you from crossing and most of your debris will flow right past.
https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=9011.0
Quote from: chesterspal on December 03, 2023, 12:16:37 PMI must back fill 12" on top of that 15" pipe or it will crush under the weight of my truck.
Just as important as proper top fill or maybe more so is your side supporting fill. If the culvert can not squish out, then it can not squish down.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20011/2410/Image0179a.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1309652952)
I dig down and bury all of my bridge stringers below ground level, shown here while replacing a broken decking board.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20011/2410/Image0183a.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1309652958)
That makes my approaches level. My bridges routinely get 2'-4' under after heavy rains and I am not concerned about wash out. This is my longest bridge @ about 15' span. The shortest one is about half of the above.
Seen all sorts of things done over the years, most of them worked.
Thing that most people underestimate is how much higher that 4" of water can get occasionally. Stream in my back garden looks a lot like that, but the water has also been lapping at our footbridge ~4ft above the normal level. If goes under the street about 50 yards downstream, through a ~4ft pipe. We are in a high rainfall area, but even drier places can get freak dumps from a thunderstorm etc.
If I was doing 2 smaller pipes, which will probably handle the flow 99.99% of the time, I'd also design it to overflow with minimal damage. So a couple of utility poles on each side of the culvert, and a good rock layer between them. The poles should help hold things together if the culvert overflows.
Precast concrete culvert pipes are still a thing here too, although plastic has become more common due to being easier to handle. But you can still buy the concrete ones in ~10" to 9ft dia.
Main thing from the environmental point is that you don't disrupts the fish movements. So things like weirs and pipes that discharge 3ft in the air are no-nos. A sensible culvert / ford or bridge may or may not need a permit, but if you don't mess with the fish, it's much better.
If you cannot put in large enough culvert to handle major flood events ( e.g.. if a 36" culvert is needed , 2 15" culverts won't meet the need ), It is is a good idea to put in an armored overflow near the culvert location to prevent culvert washout or other expensive repairs. This is simply a rocked dip near the culvert.
roadbed --------------------u--- armored dip (ignore parts above road bed in this illustration)
culvert O
Chesterspal, overkill is what we do best. you did ask. You do what works for you. I doubt aliens will come and take your bridge out with a laser beam, but we can plan for that. Lots of good knowledge. you could start with pressure treated railroad ties or tele pole parallel to the stream, with oak or similar thick planks on top going across the stream. build up rock and dirt as an approach. if it flexes, add thicker or more planks. if the bridge washes out every 10 years, build another, with maybe add more detail listed in the prev. responses. We all know that if the truck is ok, then someone will pull a loaded trailer across it at some point. Or go with culvert pipe and see how it goes. I have found 6-foot scraps at city yards they gave me for free. although it was for fixing a problem at a scout camp. I also got some free from and elevator that used plastic culvert to ventilate the piles of wheat on the ground. got them for free. Do your thing and send some pics.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/51041/4A8684D7-E540-4D2B-BE55-7173CA6B51B1.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1612627710)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/51041/5405130E-E9AA-4731-8961-5E5F829B67C8.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1612627710)
have fun.
Some folks in areas with spring run off issues attach a steel cable to the uphill end of the culvert and wrap it around a tree. They do the same with bridges on occasion, when the spring flood comes it is easier to rebuild if the culvert pipes and bridge beams do not have to be fished out of the woods a few hundred feet down. I was at spot this spring where the main beam for hiking bridge was about 300 feet down stream.
Quote from: Ianab on December 04, 2023, 12:00:17 AM
Seen all sorts of things done over the years, most of them worked...
Main thing from the environmental point is that you don't disrupts the fish movements. So things like weirs and pipes that discharge 3ft in the air are no-nos. A sensible culvert / ford or bridge may or may not need a permit, but if you don't mess with the fish, it's much better.
No fish will be harmed in the making of this culvert.
It's a runoff from down the hill.
Quote from: BaldBob on December 04, 2023, 01:38:42 AM
If you cannot put in large enough culvert to handle major flood events ( e.g.. if a 36" culvert is needed , 2 15" culverts won't meet the need ), It is is a good idea to put in an armored overflow near the culvert location to prevent culvert washout or other expensive repairs. This is simply a rocked dip near the culvert.
I don't know what (largest) size
might be needed... but my plan at this point is to take another look in the Spring when the thaw run off is the greatest.
At least then I can size the pipe for what is needed most of the time.
Quote from: RetiredTech on December 03, 2023, 05:29:53 PM
I'll throw out another option. Sink a couple treated timbers in the ground at the level of the bottom of the trench then plank over it with 3" or better tread to drive across...
Intersting concept. Not sure it will work in my case.
Might turn into a muddy mess.
Have you considered a ford crossing? If the approaches to the stream-bed will support, you could fill in the crossing with large stone (6-8") enough to drive across (maybe top with 1-1/2 stone to prevent possibility of popping a tire). Normal flow would probably go through the rocks. Heavier flow will go on top of the rock, but should stay put. The wider you can create the bed for heavier flow, the better. I have such a ford on one of my woods roads and it works very well. This is a perennial stream that has significant flow at times. I had three 15" culverts. The ford works better.
If the stream/creek is big enough, or drains a large enough area, it may show up in the USGS's StreamStats tool. Heres a link: StreamStats (https://streamstats.usgs.gov/ss/)
Once you zoom into your area, if you see a blue line representing your creek, you can select a point on the line and the program will show you the basin that it drains, the peak flow rates for certain flood events (50 yr, 100yr, etc), slopes, drain area, etc. We have a seasonal creek here that is dry or just patches of puddles for 3 months of the year, and it shows up on the tool, so your little stream may too.
If/when you get the flow rates for flood events you could then size the culvert(s) with some more confidence that they wont be overtopped by a whatever-year flood event.
Thanks for that link. :)
That's an interesting link
I can select a dry gully that only has water if a hurricane or similar comes through.
When it does have water much of it comes from wet weather springs
Ford. Anything you put in the bottom of the channel that is below the original stream bed tends to stay put. Low bridges and inadequate culverts never last.
I agree with stave buyer. I've seen many failed undersized culverts. Double culverts are designed to clog. Go big or try a squashie (an oval culvert). I think they are only available in metal. Do a watershed drainage calculation to find the most appropriate size. One big storm will wash out all your savings by going undersized. Bridges are best and short spans are relatively cheap.
A rocked ford should also be on the consider list especially if you dont use the crossing much. Very cheap to put in and self maintaining. Be sure to rock the approaches as well.
Probably cost prohibitive, but concrete culvert can be round, arched, oval, and boxed shaped.
Doug in SW IA
Instead of using a culvert to cross your stream, would a ford crossing work? Sometimes they are more reliable than a culvert giving that your only using it on occasion. Plus on our company properties, maintaining culverts can be a hassle especially after heavy rains. Culverts are more prone to blowouts and clogging up. Fords will usually allow debris to pass on by. Occasionally you will have to go back on a ford and touch them up. Just depends on how much time and effort you want to spend on them.
A look at the culverts and ford on my woods roads during Vermont's "flood" this week.
Damage was pretty minimal for me.
Vermont's Dec 2023 Flood - YouTube (https://youtu.be/4NXka7RN6pU)
nice documentation relative to this question. stay dry. :snowball:
For better or worse, I've done what OP is asking about. My creek, which has been dry almost this entire year, will occasionally flood pretty significantly. It started with a rock ford as mentioned but I had trouble crossing it with my small mower and it did have a small concrete culvert buried in it.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/63516/creek1.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1703267776)
Upon the first flood we had after we moved in the flood waters would spread 50+ feet away from the creek, across my relatively flat back yard. We had more culvert, but really garbage PVC stuff, so I dug up the rocks and concrete culvert, and reburied everything, with mostly rock or chunks of concrete on top. This ended up being 3 pipes, each maybe 12-16" in diameter, but they were also only 12-15 feet long which meant after another good flood a fair amount of the material washed away and the bridge became only wide enough to drive a truck over and it was sketchy. I need to get the backhoe over, which I did a couple times but hated every second of it. Next, I bought two 24" HDPE culverts that are 20' long. I dug everything else up, including a big chunk of material before where the culverts are going and laid the 2 pipes in there with rocks and dirt packed in between them maybe a couple feet or so wide. We've then added more rocks and dirt to the top and I put some screening material over the entrances of the pipes to hopefully keep crap from getting in there. I can backhoe out any material that may get stuck pretty easily. So far, it has gone untested, over the past several months. I am a bit concerned that the material in between the pipes washes out but we'll see what happens.
My initial plan was to bury some gabion baskets full of rocks and place the culverts on either side, so the center washout wasn't likely to happen, but the wife got sick of seeing the culverts laying in the yard and said "if it washes out we'll just fix it" for now it's done and she's right, but again, we'll see.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/63516/culvert.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1703267775)
Welp, we had our first good rain today, to test out the culverts. I didn't get a picture of the culverts themselves but they worked. The screens are likely a bad idea. They are getting clogged, pretty easily, with very small sticks and leaves, even though I think it's a 2"x2" opening. I'll probably take them off. No water over the top of the bridge. No apparent degradation of the material holding them in place (I know this is the first and only good rain so far).
This is the area right before the culverts. Holding a lot of water but again no flow over the bridge. The culverts are probably about 3/4 full at this point.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/63516/image000000281329.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1704840288)
We also lost a dead standing ash in the process that took out the trampoline. Lost at the roots not broken. It looks like it'd provide some nice lumber.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/63516/image000000281429.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1704840288)