Im trying to get back into logging. My dad shut his business down a few months ago and i tried to get out of it all together but as a 5th generation hardwood logger...Dang its hard to stay out of the woods. I have a Husqvarna 592 and know how to use it, other than that i have nothing logging related.
My question is how would you get back in with little to no money?
Im in Georgia and there are a lot of pine loggers in the area, few hardwood loggers, and no hardwood thinning loggers (which is what i want to do).
I thought about finding the timber then going to a large hardwood mill and asking for a loan against the timber. Has anyone ever done that. I dont mean to sound harsh with this next part but working for another logging company isnt in the plans so i wont do that.
I'd try hard to subcontract. Gets you rolling the cheapest and honestly being a one man band (like myself) it gives you all the time to focus on producing wood. Good thing for you is you're in an area ,I believe, you can get a way with a grapple/cable Skidder. Cheaper than our ctl equipment.
Also what kind of history, reputation,paper work, taxes or proof of anything you can show that you come from the business recently. Guys need reliable workers right now and I'm sure are willing to put on a subcontractor if can't get an employee.
CTL is my dream for sure, that's what I'm working toward because the versatility but sooooooooo many people say it wont work in hardwood, but i strongly disagree.
Subcontract cutting down here isn't as big as it is in the northern states but i could probably run equipment when they have an employee layout.
My dad does have a forklift left but i don't think it would do good skidding. A guy offered a forwarder to me for $3500 not sure of the brand but i know it has franklin axles. He said it runs but when i looked at it I'm not sure if the boom will be strong enough to pickup a big oak.
Not meaning to be rude in any way, but does your dad have any suggestions, contacts and such to help you get started? I know you said he had a loader.... what does he say about it? Do you have any woods experience?
Make trips and talk to the managers at any local hardwood sawmills in your area. Just realize that all of the hardwood logs in their yards are already being hauled there by loggers.
Quote from: Hogdaddy on February 29, 2024, 08:32:35 PMNot meaning to be rude in any way, but does your dad have any suggestions, contacts and such to help you get started? I know you said he had a loader.... what does he say about it? Do you have any woods experience?
Oh yeah ive been working in the woods since graduating high school in 2010, started topping trees in the woods and worked up to a loader. Yeah he has a wheel loader that ill need to put an engine in (but he has that too). He does know people but because what im trying to do with low production no one wants to mess with it. Its mostly pine loggers here and any of their "spare" equipment is all to big.
I hope it doesn't sound like im giving to many excuses because you two that have reasoned have given me a few ideas of something that will work for our area. Because no one has ran cable skidders here since Clark started putting grapples on skidders, all the cable skidders went north, So im gonna have to get really creative with this.
Part of what you will be up against is your lack of infrastructure. By that I mean insurance, equipment, trucking connections, working capitol, etc. That's not a reflection on you at all, it's just the card you are presently holding. Yes you can overcome it, but likely not on day one.
I would guarantee that each and every single one of us on here has had to swallow our pride and do what we had to do in order to get to where we could do what we wanted to do, or at least do what we want most of the time. I still have to do things I would rather not.
Actually,
@mike_belben can probably offer you some real world advice on how to get started.
Quote from: Magicman on February 29, 2024, 08:49:31 PMMake trips and talk to the managers at any local hardwood sawmills in your area. Just realize that all of the hardwood logs in their yards are already being hauled there by loggers.
That's a good point. im hoping because im wanting to specialize in thinning they realize its an untapped wood source that they wont fool with. Two of the hardwood mills around here take a hundred and something loads per day and so they go through a lot of wood and are starting to have to go out of state for some of their high production loggers.
Quote from: Southside on February 29, 2024, 09:35:34 PMPart of what you will be up against is your lack of infrastructure. By that I mean insurance, equipment, trucking connections, working capitol, etc. That's not a reflection on you at all, it's just the card you are presently holding. Yes you can overcome it, but likely not on day one.
I would guarantee that each and every single one of us on here has had to swallow our pride and do what we had to do in order to get to where we could do what we wanted to do, or at least do what we want most of the time. I still have to do things I would rather not.
Yeah I think I'm gonna have to get a lot more creative
Quote from: Southside on February 29, 2024, 09:38:38 PMActually, @mike_belben can probably offer you some real world advice on how to get started.
I could tell him how to fail at it But i still havent figured out how to make money purely logging unless you start with some sorta lucrative advantage that ive never experienced. Especially with inflation thats drove everything 3-5x more than i got it for.
Getting a forest packaged up for delivery to a sawmill is one of the most equipment and fuel intensive operations i can think of. Equipment, fuel, licensing and insurance never been higher. Low grade thinning wood doesnt seem like a way to cover the cost. I charge to push it up and burn. Itd cost me money to log it.
Pray about it, thats what worked for me. I work for one wealthy landowner now. He strings projects together one after another and tolerates my BS.
One thing in your favor, is theres never been a larger shortage of competent people thatll show up and get dirty. Thus its the highest demand ever for plain old tradesmen in my life. My friend started a handyman company maybe a year ago. I bet he does $200k this first year.
Common complaint I see every week... "Can't get good help"
Now if you have some experience, your own gear, and are willing to work, then you are "Good Help", and in short supply. There are jobs out there. Contract or wages, if you are any good, someone will hire you, for more then minimum wage. This goes with Mike's comments, there is decent money to be made just being competent, turning up and working.
Don't fret starting out on wages, as long as you earn more that it costs you to live, you are getting ahead. Build your skills, contacts and capital (savings / equipment). Get promoted to foreman or CTL operator, and that's more $ per week, and that opens up more possibilities.
Some guys here will hand cut logs then rent a Skidder for a few days. Prolly not a bad way but not long term.
And maybe drive out if your area. 1-2 hour commute isn't bad if the wood is good. And uncle same will pay you for your miles anyways.
If your good with a saw you may want to start with that, storm cleanup, tree trimming, etc... I know a few young people around here that just do tree work with a saw and a truck, and make some pretty good money at times. Where there's a will, there's a way. Good luck!!
I don't know how things work down there but some guys cut "on shares" meaning you don't pay for the standing timber, you split what it sells for with the landowner. That seems like the only way you could get started if you don't have/can't get money to buy standing timber or your own land and don't want to work as a sub.
If it is just thinning low grade wood it is probably a good idea to do extensive research on what the markets are like for firewood/pulp/pallet logs in your area.
Another option as stated is subcontracting for a mill/forester. Here there are a few consulting foresters that will hire loggers to cut, then the forester handles all sales/marketing, pays the landowner and pays the logger.
You are going to need something to move the wood, I would think. A $3500 forwarder could be a great way to get your foot in the door or a great lawn ornament, mine is a lawn ornament for a while yet ffcheesy
I've kind of split from my father on the forestry end a few yrs ago, you've got an uphill, expensive, painful, frustrating battle ahead of you.
Have you filed for a seperate business ? LLC ? Established any business credit ? Business insurance ? Line of credit at a bank ? Personal credit isnt trashed ? Have any foresters or landowners on PAPER willing to sell you wood on contract ? Equipment is hard enough to buy, forestry equipment good luck. I've got a forwarder coming up from GA on the 15th, didn't borrow much money, have decent credit and it still wasn't a pleasurable experience. I can give you the # of the place I've dealt with a few times, easier than a bank but I think they would pull the rug on someone quick, right now especially down south they don't have enough places to park all the repo iron. I was going to post in the Tigercat thread all the Tigercat iron, one of the NEW 620 dozers is already in for repo.
Business plan isn't hard, it's everything else that gains validity in the eyes of bank that's going to help you. I know some guys who have 20%+ interest on their iron notes, 8 days a week, your better off being at Walmart than signing a note like that and becoming a slave. Alot of the deere iron we had when I was a kid was someone elses iron we picked up for the bank. I would sit down with a lawyer / accountant, figure out how you wanna structure it, go from there. I'm not knocking anyone, it can be done but the fall comes quick, guys lose everything, weather, wood prices, it's a miserable business sometimes.
Quote from: Firewoodjoe on March 01, 2024, 07:23:44 AMSome guys here will hand cut logs then rent a Skidder for a few days. Prolly not a bad way but not long term.
Ill have to look for a rental skidder, most around here dont rent any logging equipment
Quote from: Firewoodjoe on March 01, 2024, 07:26:18 AMAnd maybe drive out if your area. 1-2 hour commute isn't bad if the wood is good. And uncle same will pay you for your miles anyways.
theres really good hardwood in the area, because most have made the move to pine
Quote from: mudfarmer on March 01, 2024, 08:47:23 AMI don't know how things work down there but some guys cut "on shares" meaning you don't pay for the standing timber, you split what it sells for with the landowner. That seems like the only way you could get started if you don't have/can't get money to buy standing timber or your own land and don't want to work as a sub.
If it is just thinning low grade wood it is probably a good idea to do extensive research on what the markets are like for firewood/pulp/pallet logs in your area.
Another option as stated is subcontracting for a mill/forester. Here there are a few consulting foresters that will hire loggers to cut, then the forester handles all sales/marketing, pays the landowner and pays the logger.
You are going to need something to move the wood, I would think. A $3500 forwarder could be a great way to get your foot in the door or a great lawn ornament, mine is a lawn ornament for a while yet ffcheesy
Everything i get i would buy on a split, we do per ton down here and a per ton split is very common, i wouldnt buy anything lump sum.
HAHA The $3500 lawn ornament is ha i worry about. get on one tract and the transmission goes out...but i guess thats logging.
Quote from: BargeMonkey on March 01, 2024, 03:07:44 PMI've kind of split from my father on the forestry end a few yrs ago, you've got an uphill, expensive, painful, frustrating battle ahead of you.
Have you filed for a seperate business ? LLC ? Established any business credit ? Business insurance ? Line of credit at a bank ? Personal credit isnt trashed ? Have any foresters or landowners on PAPER willing to sell you wood on contract ? Equipment is hard enough to buy, forestry equipment good luck. I've got a forwarder coming up from GA on the 15th, didn't borrow much money, have decent credit and it still wasn't a pleasurable experience. I can give you the # of the place I've dealt with a few times, easier than a bank but I think they would pull the rug on someone quick, right now especially down south they don't have enough places to park all the repo iron. I was going to post in the Tigercat thread all the Tigercat iron, one of the NEW 620 dozers is already in for repo.
Business plan isn't hard, it's everything else that gains validity in the eyes of bank that's going to help you. I know some guys who have 20%+ interest on their iron notes, 8 days a week, your better off being at Walmart than signing a note like that and becoming a slave. Alot of the deere iron we had when I was a kid was someone elses iron we picked up for the bank. I would sit down with a lawyer / accountant, figure out how you wanna structure it, go from there. I'm not knocking anyone, it can be done but the fall comes quick, guys lose everything, weather, wood prices, it's a miserable business sometimes.
Yeah I already have the corporation filed, have an EIN and DOT#. I think my best bet is to get landowners willing to sell on paper and build off of that. There are so many consulting foresters in the area that only focus on buying timber so i think my first step will be to act as a timber consultant and get some timber under contract.
What kind of forwarder did you find in GA?
Yes a lot of loggers are going out of business down here and most of it is due to mills being full. Hardwood Log mills are wide open and thats what i want to focus on.
Logging is expensive and equipment intensive, often you would need a crew, and a good working relationship with several sawmills. You are starting from scratch and have none of that and all of it will take time and effort to acquire.
I would sell the 592 and get yourself a pair of small arborist saws, a couple of ropes, a couple of slings, and a couple of weeks of training in silvaculture. Learn to climb trees. Then take on small trimming work in yards and backlots and get paid by the hour to make friends and gather connections. You can rent stump grinders and high lift extension platforms these days. Do that for a couple of years, work up a network by word of mouth, work up to a bigger truck and a log trailer, and start collecting good logs for sale, and then work up a list of reliable buyers. Once you're up to that, mobile, and connected, then you might be able to gamble with someone else's money and loan on a big forestry job. But get the footing you need first before you jump into a difficult market.
The beauty of the FF is its incredibly regional, what works down there isn't here, or the lakes, or out west, as far as buying wood. Anyone who truly wants to work right now, it's out there. Are you halfway decent with a couple foresters ? Anymore I'm going to deal with 1 or 2, take only the cream private jobs and that's it, you try and do too much and it doesn't work out well. 2011 564 Cat, some people hate them, I'm after simple and dealer support. At the end of the day a small cable skidder / loader is the best money spent for cutting wood, I'm watching iron go for 1/2 of covid pricing, 50k you can have 2 decent-ish machines.
I would definitely be talking to those Forrester's. There may be smaller jobs they pass on, or just jobs in general they know about.
You could always just buy a used small bandsaw mill.
Where are you located in GA.? North GA. is different from middle and southern GA. I don't think you have a bad idea but I would suggest you be a little more flexible. Most of the hardwood mills are now cutting pine and hardwood. There are lots of landowners that have smaller tracts of timber that they can't get cut. Mostly because the cost for the other guys to move all of their equipment, is more than the small amount of timber is worth. I get calls on a regular basis of folks wanting me to buy the timber off their 5 or 10 acres. How are you going to get the wood hauled to the mill? How are you going to load a log truck? We don't have many self loader trucks around here like they do up north.
Interesting read this. Im in the middst of doing this myself, however, in a very different landscape. I live in rural Norway, and the market is very different. Most of what I take down for now, ends up beeing split into firewood and sold.
But I enjoy this read !
Best regards
Odd
Norways Westcoast
Quote from: OddInTheForrest on April 18, 2024, 09:11:14 PMMost of what I take down for now, ends up beeing split into firewood and sold.
That can still be a sound business model depending on your local markets. Main trick is to sell the processed wood for more than it costs to produce. A couple of local businesses just buy reject / odd species logs (cheap) and process them into firewood.