Skid Steer or CTL size for stability on soft soil and rough trails

Aggieforester · August 13, 2020, 02:31:44 PM

Howdy. Newby, been enjoying this community as a lurker. I'm a flatlander from south GA loblolly area, retiring to coastal WA. Bought a little 125 acre cutover tract, would appreciate some input on equipment to manage it. How small a CTL or skid steer with over the tire tracks would be stable on soft soil? Narrow Kioti ck3510hst wasn't very stable R4 tires, no standard options for bigger or wider), fairly tippy as I drove over trails (used it for several years and sold it, not the right tool for the job). Like the look of some of the fat tired orchard tractors with protected cabs but this area and work might be better suited for a CTL. I'm worried about soil compression and tree root damage. Some of the area is boggy, most of it gets standing water here in Western WA, 60" rain a year and sometimes 4" rain per day and alluvial soil and clay. Not worried about snow plowing, won't be on the land Nov- April, too wet to not damage the soil or get stuck. Mostly flat area but many stumps and hummocks; red alder, doug fir and some cedar. Has been logged several times and has some heavily rutted areas. It was clearcut in 2 sections in last 5 years, I've got mostly 4 and 2 year old seedlings, grass and scrub. Looking to get trails put in as dirt trails, no gravel. Not planning on logging or cut firewood myself but want to manage the alder for a 20 year rotation; Doug fir is 80 year rotation for timber. Hired guy with a JD 450 dozer to put in perimeter trails, cleared the slash from old skidder trails. 8 ft wide dozer on 6 ft wide average seedling spacing is a little too wide, looking to mow 6 ft wide trails to allow better access for management and hunting. Want to be able to put in more trails, keep brush, grass, Reed canary grass and scotch broom down. Got a gravel logging road from front to back to provide access, no pavement, lots of slash, few surface rocks. Summers are dry. Could rent a CTL and brush cutter short term and buy a tractor but would prefer having a long term CTL or skid steer to play with. Cutting that scotch broom back by hand or spraying it wasn't real effective and tractor wasn't suited to the soft soil. Want to do some trail building in hills at end of property and dig a pond but those are secondary considerations. Q1. Is a mid sized frame 50 hp skid or CTL stable enough on soft, uneven ground to blaze trails and then keep them mowed or do I need to move up to 90 large framed machine? Worried about soil compression on tires and tipping over, looking for an affordable medium. $30k budget for machine plus implements since this is a hobby, won't get any economic return until alder thinning in 15 years. Q2. I know tractors, ignorant on skid steers and CTLs other than reading. I've got tools for car and tractor maintenance, not for heavy equipment. Could I reasonably expect a 5 year old skid or CTL with 1500-2000 hours to last 10 years, 200 hours a year without having to replace a transmission or other very expensive item? I'm guessing the engine would be fine that long and would expect to do maintenance and track replacement. Got Kubota and New Holland dealers 20 miles away, Bobcat and Case 50 miles away but don't know any of them. Any wisdom or experience shared would be much appreciated. Thanks!

barbender · August 13, 2020, 06:41:33 PM

I'm not always real big on them, but ASV track loaders are without equal when it comes to a light footprint in my experience. They also ride much nicer and have better traction. They also have higher maintenance costs. I work with a guy that has a new ASV RT70, he just had a guy hire him to take care of some work in a low area that he couldn't work in his own Kubota track machine.

Walnut Beast · August 13, 2020, 07:17:05 PM

I talked to a friend yesterday. He's got one of my older ASV Forestry 100. He was thinking of getting a new one. CAT brought out a new one to demo and he said it was great. But his main concern was it just didn't have the ground clearance 😊

Walnut Beast · August 13, 2020, 07:30:13 PM

With a 30k budget of machine and implements the trade off is older and higher hours. You could get something and it could work out fine. Or you could open a can of worms

Aggieforester · August 13, 2020, 08:11:42 PM

Thanks. Yeah, clearance, track life, and maintenance...don't want to be broken down in the back 40, trying to do a major repair. Heard horror stories about $10k small dozers that needed $15k in transmission repairs... ASVs look slick, not sure an RT-40 would last too long running a light duty brush hog all day in the rough...and can't afford purchase or repair on a 125.

Haleiwa · August 13, 2020, 08:25:57 PM

Over the tire tracks and forestry are a bad combination. Any stick that gets caught between the tire and the track (and there will be a lot of them) will jam your drive train or damage the tire. You need a forestry equipped CTL. Terex is a good one, but for the work you want to do, you need a bigger one than you think. My PT110F puts out 45 gpm, and it takes it all to run my mulching head. My advice would be to spend your money on a good loader of at least 110 horse, a grapple, and a bucket. The mulching heads are expensive, and you can rent one as you need it to avoid tying up another $25,000.

nativewolf · August 13, 2020, 08:37:33 PM

I have a Kubota svl95 and I have to say that I do not find it useful in the woods, no ground clearance. Great for fields, wood lots, firewood, etc. I would say perhaps a skidder with a blade might be more helpful or a wider stance tractor, the orchard models. Now the orchard models are low to the ground ( I live amongst quite a few vineyards) and they often have tires that would need to get swapped.

Here is another idea. Rent a bulldozer for a month to put trails in place, maybe $3000, then small excavator to do anything the dozer can't. Maybe another $2000 for that. This would get your basic dirtwork done and done with equipment that was new and under the rental agreement insurance protection (no worries if you break it).

This would leave you $25,000 to buy an older skidder that is simple to work on, a garret or old TJ etc. The skidder would have a basic blade, could pull firewood, would not mind stumps so much, etc. Be sure to budget another $2000 or so on seed & straw ( get good native seed stock, great for wildlife) to get the trails set for rains. Anyway, my experience that if you break down the task you really need and the best machine for the task...well you may find that rentals of specific equipment that is purpose built for the job at hand allows the remaining funds to be spent on the most appropriate equipment to own without a weak compromise that leaves you second guessing yourself, hating the project, and being miserable. Not that I've ever made that mistake :D.

Another option is to hire someone to do the trails but if you are retired than your time is your own and a rental may be the ticket. Up to you.

Now, how about some pictures.

barbender · August 13, 2020, 08:39:08 PM

A medium frame CTL in the 60-70 hp range will do what you need. A standard flow brush mower should work for the grass, weeds, and light brush. If you're looking to do really heavy mowing or mulching, you need a lot more machine.

nativewolf · August 13, 2020, 08:39:24 PM

Quote from: nativewolf on August 13, 2020, 08:37:33 PM
I have a Kubota svl95 and I have to say that I do not find it useful in the woods, no ground clearance. Great for fields, wood lots, firewood, etc. I would say perhaps a skidder with a blade might be more helpful or a wider stance tractor, the orchard models. Now the orchard models are low to the ground ( I live amongst quite a few vineyards) and they often have tires that would need to get swapped.

Here is another idea. Rent a bulldozer for a month to put trails in place, maybe $3000, then small excavator to do anything the dozer can't. Maybe another $2000 for that. This would get your basic dirtwork done and done with equipment that was new and under the rental agreement insurance protection (no worries if you break it).

This would leave you $25,000 to buy an older skidder that is simple to work on, a garret or old TJ etc. The skidder would have a basic blade, could pull firewood, would not mind stumps so much, etc. Be sure to budget another $2000 or so on seed & straw ( get good native seed stock, great for wildlife) to get the trails set for rains. Anyway, my experience that if you break down the task you really need and the best machine for the task...well you may find that rentals of specific equipment that is purpose built for the job at hand allows the remaining funds to be spent on the most appropriate equipment to own without a weak compromise that leaves you second guessing yourself, hating the project, and being miserable. Not that I've ever made that mistake :D.

Another option is to hire someone to do the trails but if you are retired than your time is your own and a rental may be the ticket. Up to you.

Now, how about some pictures.

PS ASV maint can be very very painful.

stavebuyer · August 14, 2020, 03:42:17 AM

You have a long list of concerns. A mid size CTL would handle annual mowing of regrowth just fine as well as have the lightest footprint. The downsides to one in the woods is they have very poor ground clearance, poor visibility to rear even if equipped with a camera, and will loose traction quickly in wet clay soils if you break through the vegetative layer. They also are a royal pain to work on due to the confined space as well as a fire hazard with trapped debris in the belly pan and engine compartment. I could use mine to mow a swampy area you could not walk through but get stuck on clay woods road that a 4wd tractor would not spin a tire on. Plentiful as they are to rent, I would go that route as a trial to see if it suited. I personally prefer a guarded tractor for woods tasks.

Aggieforester · August 14, 2020, 04:56:01 AM

Thanks, folks. That's the difference between me having a little bit of book knowledge and watching people for 10 minutes on jobs and y'all doing it for years. I'll have to see if I can add photos from my smartphone or if I need to break out my laptop. That Kioti was fun, ran it on a small place in VA and in WA, but was too narrow. Drop a small front tire in a soft spot and things got cattywampus fast. Thanks again!

Aggieforester · August 14, 2020, 05:16:53 AM

Pics of my place December 2018 as I was buying it and summer of 19 getting a dozer to do a perimeter and a couple interior trails. Braided streams are common, including trails turning into streams...

Aggieforester · August 14, 2020, 05:18:34 AM

Some more

mike_belben · August 14, 2020, 05:23:22 AM

Wheeled bobcats have no suspension at all so theyre about like driving a warehouse forklift over potholes.. Rattle your guts pretty good and chew up everything. Very easily stuck.

Ag machinery has been run on saturated fields for ages by putting on duals front and rear. Swamp loggers do the same. Is that an option for you? Itll cut your ground pressure in half.

Aggieforester · August 14, 2020, 03:31:30 PM

Thanks, Mike. I'll have to consider tractors with wider stance and either fat orchard/soft ground wheels or doubles to purchase if I rent heavy equipment for the hard stuff first. Cat 299 D3 Land Management if I win the lotto... Don't know if air ride seats on CTL or wheeled skid steers would soften the ride much.
Doug

mike_belben · August 14, 2020, 03:47:44 PM

Seat suspension would probably be a big improvement over sitting on steel with a little foam.

Bruno of NH · August 14, 2020, 04:46:41 PM

My friend has an ASV loved it till repair and maintenance bills started rolling in.
Would have gave it to me when I was looking for a skid steer.
Priced out the repairs and future maintenance and ended up with big Bob.
CTL will have to come when I win the power ball :D

Skeans1 · August 14, 2020, 04:56:43 PM

What part of the coast in Washington? The biggest problems we have out here with CTL or rubber tire equipment isn't the wet so much as ground clearance. You need to be spraying and slashing it'll go a lot further in your efforts.

Can I ask why such a short alder rotation? A 55 to 60 year rotation in Douglas fir seems to be about the perfect number.

Aggieforester · August 14, 2020, 09:04:23 PM

Howdy, Skeans1. We're near Centralia, off I-5 a bit. Local mill buys alder for chip, I'm told by the state forester who helped me with my management plan. We'll see how it goes. I know the county planted improved poplars, but have no market now. Neighbor said trespassers were on our place again, so likely won't leave equipment there, even in a conex, behind a locked gate. Guess I better size my truck and tractor/CTL at the same time...

Aggieforester · August 14, 2020, 09:07:00 PM

Bruno, what's Big Bob? Curious what's working for you. Have driven through NH but haven't spent time there. Plenty of hilly stuff!
Doug

Bruno of NH · August 14, 2020, 09:35:10 PM

Big Bob is a 974 bobcat .
It's very heavy I use it in a mill yard as my loader.
I wouldn't want to cross any soft ground with it.
It would sink to the bottom.
But they did make a version of it with grosser tracks with a shear head for dropping trees.
Others on here know more about that one than I.
My property is wet and is next to my friend that has the ASV and I have seen that machine go in some very soft areas without sinking in.
It has wide tracks and higher ground clearance than other ctls out there. I don't know how well the under carriage stands up to rocks or stumps.

barbender · August 14, 2020, 10:44:41 PM

The reason I brought up the ASV was their ability to work on soft ground, slopes clay, you name it. The undercarriage can be really expensive to maintain, but they will do things that other machines can't even come close. If I was doing general construction work and such I'd look at other CTL machines first. ASV have way higher ground clearance as well. I have kind of a love/hate relationship with them, but there's no getting around the fact that they will do more on challenging ground. If for a business, you have to charge enough for it. If for personal use, you just have to be able to afford it😁 BTW, the smaller RT50 and RT60 machines are a lot less powerful than the bigger machines, but have a reputation for much less maintenance then their big brothers. They don't tear themselves apart. One other thing I don't like about them (and Cat machines for that matter) is the Perkins engine. Perkins has made some great engines over the years, these don't seem to be among them.

Skeans1 · August 14, 2020, 11:29:23 PM

Quote from: Aggieforester on August 14, 2020, 09:04:23 PM
Howdy, Skeans1. We're near Centralia, off I-5 a bit. Local mill buys alder for chip, I'm told by the state forester who helped me with my management plan. We'll see how it goes. I know the county planted improved poplars, but have no market now. Neighbor said trespassers were on our place again, so likely won't leave equipment there, even in a conex, behind a locked gate. Guess I better size my truck and tractor/CTL at the same time...

Oh ok I'm about an hour south of you across the river from Longview, Wa. There's two alder mills there Cascade and Northwest Hardwoods, my personal alder rotation is probably around 60 years old it's where we feel we get the best dollar in return for scale and our fir rotation is around 90 years old. As for the poplar hybrids there was a ton planted in my area when James River owned Wauna paper mill to feed it. We use our rubber tired skid steer in the forestry rows for mowing but our rows are planted with a tractor and wide enough to pass for the first 5 years.

mike_belben · August 15, 2020, 01:41:32 AM

Barko 1080 is the machine youre talkin about bruno. The 1080C has planetary hubs which is much desired.

Walnut Beast · August 15, 2020, 02:49:32 AM

Quote from: Skeans1 on August 14, 2020, 04:56:43 PM
What part of the coast in Washington? The biggest problems we have out here with CTL or rubber tire equipment isn't the wet so much as ground clearance. You need to be spraying and slashing it'll go a lot further in your efforts.

Can I ask why such a short alder rotation? A 55 to 60 year rotation in Douglas fir seems to be about the perfect number.

Neighbors got a montezuma tree saw for CTL/Skid with a spray kit on it. He says it works pretty good. About 4,500. Said he uses it for the year and sells for 2,500 then buys a new one