Skid Steer or CTL size for stability on soft soil and rough trails

[Walnut Beast]

The reason I brought up the ASV was their ability to work on soft ground, slopes clay, you name it. The undercarriage can be really expensive to maintain, but they will do things that other machines can't even come close. If I was doing general construction work and such I'd look at other CTL machines first. ASV have way higher ground clearance as well. I have kind of a love/hate relationship with them, but there's no getting around the fact that they will do more on challenging ground. If for a business, you have to charge enough for it. If for personal use, you just have to be able to afford it😁 BTW, the smaller RT50 and RT60 machines are a lot less powerful than the bigger machines, but have a reputation for much less maintenance then their big brothers. They don't tear themselves apart. One other thing I don't like about them (and Cat machines for that matter) is the Perkins engine. Perkins has made some great engines over the years, these don't seem to be among them.

The ASV 120 RT Forestry with the new Fecon Blackhawk Mulcher head is going to be my next machine. That head is amazing. ASV has a new 75 Max that's coming out with 360 degree view. It's pretty sweet!!

[Aggieforester]

Thanks all, appreciate the advice! Now I'll be dreaming about an ASV120...wonder if the wife will keep working so I can make the monthly payments and maintenance bills...ha. I'll have to do some more research on the ASV RT40 and larger, used prices are decent and I could tow it with my current truck.

[Walnut Beast]

The reason I brought up the ASV was their ability to work on soft ground, slopes clay, you name it. The undercarriage can be really expensive to maintain, but they will do things that other machines can't even come close. If I was doing general construction work and such I'd look at other CTL machines first. ASV have way higher ground clearance as well. I have kind of a love/hate relationship with them, but there's no getting around the fact that they will do more on challenging ground. If for a business, you have to charge enough for it. If for personal use, you just have to be able to afford it😁 BTW, the smaller RT50 and RT60 machines are a lot less powerful than the bigger machines, but have a reputation for much less maintenance then their big brothers. They don't tear themselves apart. One other thing I don't like about them (and Cat machines for that matter) is the Perkins engine. Perkins has made some great engines over the years, these don't seem to be among them.

The 120 has a Cummins Engine 

[Riwaka]

Some of the dozers (that could have a rear power take off and linkage added to run a brush hog) in your price range look pretty worn out.

The New Holland TK 100 (might be in budget) has the metal crawler tracks of a dozer and a pto and linkage. Just need to figure out the rops and AC. - maybe exact cabs could figure something out.

New Holland TK100
New holland tk 100 - YouTube

Exact E cab
The Exact E-Cab Harvesting Cab for John Deere - YouTube

Build you own Woods Boss from a John Deere or NH donor tractor. (How much have the yellow jackets and killer bees spread?- surely it might be an idea to have an enclosed cab mulching in the woods, unless one wears a bee suit instead)
WOODS BOSS - YouTube

CMI mulchers  mostly look a bit beyond budget.

[Aggieforester]

Thanks, Riwaka. Yeah, I've hit ground hornets and bees there already but did a Monty Python, run away, run away. I like the looks of that TK80 and 100. Orchard cabs are common down in CA, might have to drive down there to find a used tractor with one or, as you suggested, build one up. 

[Skeans1]

@Aggieforester 
You should be able to head over the mount to Yakima or even Wenatchee and find those cab style tractors with all the fruit growers over there.

[Aggieforester]

Good point, Skeans1. Saw WA Tractor, Yakima had some nice stuff but pricey. Like the low profile Antonio Carrera but figured the articulated frame wouldn't hold up if I push much dirt with an aftermarket FEL. Liking what I see of a NH TD4040F, low profile and 24" front tires should be stable in swampy and rutted soil. Guess I could put the time into doing the dirt work to level all the trails. But many of the cabbed orchard tractors are $50k, plus cost of bushhog, more than I can spend on a hobby.

[Bruno of NH]

It to bad no one in the states imports the Hamey trio 
Steel tracks,loader,dozer blade and 3pt hitch.
Has a Perkins engine
I would like one.
Only available down under.
U-bulb has some movies on it.

[quilbilly]

Aggie I'm logging in Centralia right now. I can't believe the state Forester recommended 20 years for alder. That's just crazy. The price difference between chips and sawlogs is enormous. Also if you grow to at least a twelve inch top you will get top $ as that's the last price increase based on diameter for sawlogs and it will meet the minimum size for alder slicers which pay double that of sawlogs. 

Fir for 80 years is super long. We are cutting 35 YO right now and getting 750 for it in Longview. I agree with skeans, you're in a top notch growing area and I'd wait until it's in the 50 year range and then log it on a hot market after that. BTW I'm not big on the short 35 YO rotation, but it's what the big guys are doing now. 80 year old fir in Lewis county will reach 160+ ft. At that age you might have wood that's too big for local mills and need to get a special order or ship 3+ hours. 

[Aggieforester]

Thanks, Quilbilly. My place has a decent site index. Was talking to the state guy about rotations and income; just like loblolly, you can cut early but low return on investment. I'm surprised fir saw logs in 50, thought it was longer. But yeah, don't want them too big. I'll have to load pics of some buddies dropping a 500 year old spruce, 6 or 7 ft diameter and 225 ft tall, punk center... exciting!

Bruno, I saw the Hanmey, looks like the Nortrac version. Interesting stuff. This guy is importing now, too, as is Awassos. Don't know how reliable the machine is but looks good for my application. I saw a Sweco trail dozer working, that thing is nice but expensive. https://mcmusa.equipment/dozers

[quilbilly]

I'm not sure how long you've been out here but that isn't very big for a spruce that old. Head up to Olympic national Park and you can still find some big ones. My pops cut lots of em in the 10+ ft dia range. That is good on height though. 

There was a job just outside Centralia we bought 90 YO fir off of that was 120 ft to the first limb on most of em. They were a little too big for local mills but we had a temple log order for them. 

[Aggieforester]

Nice, Quilbilly. Yeah, I've spent some time Oly NF and NP, some awesome old growth. Some guys in a Forest Service Sawyer class near Forks, WA, taking out some diseased old growth in a campground. So much bigger than the pines I grew up with in GA!

 

[Satamax]

Doug, wouldn't a secondhand snowcat do the job? 

PistenBully Paana | GreenTech | mowing and mulching - YouTube

You wouldn't get a little Paana in the us, i would think. 

PistenBully Paana | GreenTech | mowing and mulching - YouTube

But transforming a bigger snowcat into something like this is quite easy as i have heard. 

Dameuse agricole - YouTube

Plenty of examples on youtube. 

[Aggieforester]

Thanks, Satamax, I'll have to look into that.

[Aggieforester]

Satamax, I enjoyed those videos, thanks. A quick search didn't show too many snowcats or similar for sale here at a decent price. Maybe Case will sell their DL550B as an alternative to small dozers, but even used in 5 years, I expect it to be out of my price range. But neat! https://www.forconstructionpros.com/equipment/earthmoving-compact/track-loaders/article/21136442/case-construction-equipment-cnh-case-dl550b-minotaur-adds-real-dozer-specs-at-the-top-of-compact-track-loaders 

[quilbilly]

It is amazing how tall the spruce will get isn't it. Oh one more thing. If you've got some cedar try to cut in the fall if the market is decent. You can get the brush pickers in there to do boughs and make a little extra money. It's a pain but can be worth it. 

[dhjmd]

Hi aggieforester, I too am a newby to this site.  I also struggled with the quandary you are now, back in 2014.  We bought 53 acres, which is basically a low-lying valley with houses completely surrounding at about 100'-150' higher elevation (so it's almost ALWAYS damp, or worse!)  Same deal as you, single gravel road put in down the middle from east to west.  Judging from your pics (I can't post any yet), forest is probably a bit thicker than yours, as you mentioned timber harvests having occurred in the past, and about 30 acres of ours is in need of selection.

Back then, I had a 4x4 NH TC24DA HST (R-4 tires) with FEL already that I primarily used to finish mow the homestead.  It took me about three months working the FEL on this property to figure out something different was needed (only weighed about 2,000 lb, was good for maneuvering in tight spaces and had good ground clearance, just had no traction or bite due to leaves, ground vegetation, fallen limbs, old stumps, etc. and left me puckering and cussing constantly.)  Within another month, I had a new Cat 289D with all the forestry protection I could get from the factory (+ poly front door.)  I did get the rear counterweights but also got the wide-track and triple tread idlers.  Machine with basic dirt bucket weighs around 11,500 lb.  I should say I also ran a 259D at the dealership and it's just a lighter, smaller-footprint of a machine so it didn't feel as stable, especially backing up slopes.  You know the old adage about buying at least one size bigger than you think you'll need (ok, the 289D was actually two sizes larger than the 259D ;D)

In six years of owning/operating, stability has been very good, almost a little too good at times (when you run over any limb or trunk of much size, you're gonna know it!)  And while they can certainly become unstable real quick, it's not even in the same realm as a four wheel tractor (CoG is night/day different obviously.)  I can honestly say that ground clearance hasn't been an issue.  Every once in a great while, I will get a small limb jammed in between the frame and the undercarriage but that's usually only when I'm pushing a brush pile 3x the size of the CTL (one of those, "the CTL is in there somewhere" moments!)  For sure agree with other comments, seeing rearward is not ideal, though the backup camera is invaluable - once I got used to it, I found myself not even turning my head back/forth, as it gives wide enough visibility to see the things that will do real damage  as long as you pay attention to it :D 

Recently the NH literally broke in two, so I have a new Kubota L6060CAB HST with FEL, PF, QH, DH, FM, GS, and RC on order.  Will be using the FEL and GS to maintain the road (previously used the CTL bucket :() and RC to maintain ditches and trails.  If you do go the tractor route, you may want to consider a DH option for rough or rutted trails (unless those areas are/remain dry, in which case a BB or GS may be more effective.)  Last thought...you may need to open up the purse strings a bit more, $30K for a machine and attachments to maintain something the size you're talking about could lead you places you're not interested in going...keep us posted, we're all anxiously awaiting your decision(s)!  

8)

[Aggieforester]

Thanks, DHJMD! Yeah, it'll be interesting. I'm finishing up an out of state job, eager to get back there and play when I start retirement in 2 years. I was looking at Cat 299 vs 259, that 11" of track on ground and 3000 lbs difference really comes across from others' stories as being very noticeable for stability. Might pick up something next summer when I'm back to keep the trails mowed. And you're right, I have no merchantable timber, just a riparian buffer and new stuff, looking forward to managing and thinning.

[Fern Wood]

I Replaced the tracks at 1850 hours on my cat 279c at a cost of around 3k. 

[Walnut Beast]

 

 Rubber tracks do just fine in forestry. Ground pressure is 4.3 on these units. So very good in soft ground.  This guy runs 4 of these hard along with a big Prentice mulcher and two big excavators with heads. Now if your running one in the scrap yard and it's  cutting the track deep that's not good 

[stavebuyer]

Rubber tracks will load up with wet clay and stick you in places a 2 wheel drive tractor would go through. They will climb a grade that will scare you when its dry; but let them tracks hit KY red clay or even worse the blue gray clay in the knobs. Been there and that's the reason I sent a paid for CAT down the road with a 1000 hours. It was useless in the woods in winter when I really needed it. They turn on a dime until you turn into a stump/root/rock and throw off a track to the inside in the mud on a hillside. You will invent words of praise for it then.

Rent before you buy if your mainly going to play in the woods with it. They are plenty handy for lots of tasks but deep lug tires preferably with chains or steel tracks are what you need in the woods.

[Walnut Beast]

I disagree 😂.  Should have went with a ASV. I've owned 3 of them, a couple CAT units and I know what they can do. I'm aware of the problems CAT 299s have on there machines. That's why I went with another ASV 

[barbender]

I always say, ASV are another animal altogether and shouldn't even be lumped together with other track machines. I don't even like them that much, but dang it they will go through anything! 

[Aggieforester]

Thanks, all. Many things to consider! And I'll need to upgrade to an F250 or 350 if I get a bigger machine. Too many break-ins and my woodlot is 20 miles from my house, get lots of trespassers so leaving a tractor in a barn won't work (maybe conex is ok). I'll probably rent a compact track loader and good brush mower so I can mow and put up strong fences as my first project...and give me some time to try before I look to buy.

[Walnut Beast]

Sounds like you need to invest in some wireless cameras with lock boxes hidden higher up in the tree or have a dummy camera they notice then the good one pointed that way from a sneaky location